Having watched the leadership debate and Vincent Browne...

smokedeels

I'm throwing in the towel, re: the Economic side of Politics; nobody on the Left can present a viable method of Ireland working as some insular Socialist State, and the Centrist Political Parties (I include Labour in that) seem happy to go along with Market Capitalism with an aim to making it work the best it can (basically reducing the harm they accept it does)

We're living in a Global Economy run by a undemocratic Capitalist State named China who have the advantage of not adhering to Human Rights or Unions, we can't compete just follow the trends.

I'm going back to voting locally for the lad who expediently fixes potholes, and the party most liberal towards matters like equality and secularism.

Europe/The World is screwed, Capitalism is bad system but it's to late to go back.

Anyone else disillusioned, or do you have a firm idea where you stand?

As I see televised debates as nothing more than popularity insta-make-up-my-mid-guff, I haven't changed my mind, no.

capitalism works - we just dont have capitalism

capitalism involves letting businesses fail - that includes banks
capitalism involves wages goin down when unemployment increases - we have fixed wage agreements often set by the labour court
our property market is rigged meaning rents cripple businesses
mortgages and rents are too high meaning people have less spending money
Electricity and insurance are similiar messes

Whats the common factor in all of those problems? State intervention
You have NAMA
You have Labour courts and crap like the croke park agreement
You have the ESB and the government in the pockets of insurance companies like Quinn Direct

We have never tried capitalism here ......never....the most capitalist state in the world is the US - they have had a terrible crash - as capitalism allows - and their correction will be quicker and sharper. Here in Europe it will be a long drawn out affair due to state intervention.

The factors businesses list for relocating out of Ireland are
High wages
High electricity
High rents
High insurance

To be quite blunt - its the government/states fault. People generally dislike the more raw capitalism that is in the US.
People dont want banks to fail or wages to drop - they rather boil slowly than get it over with.

SafeSurfer

There is a lot of truth in your post. We are a small island of 4.5 million people. Even before our current economic crisis our ability to shape our own destiny was very limited.

However you vote or whoever forms the next government don't expect things to be much better or worse in March 2011 when the new government is formed.

Stabshauptmann

None of that ofcourse has anything to do with the leadership debate.

Regarding the debate, I'm surprised to say I thought Micheál Martin the hands down winner.

Snakeblood

Stabshauptmann wrote: »

None of that ofcourse has anything to do with the leadership debate.

Regarding the debate, I'm surprised to say I thought Micheál Martin the hands down winner.

He did come across better, I thought. Depressing.

kincsem

Michael Martin came over better, but I'm looking at his party's record. I'm happy to vote for others who are not as television friendly but do an honest job.

K_user

kincsem wrote: »

Michael Martin came over better, but I'm looking at his party's record. I'm happy to vote for others who are not as television friendly but do an honest job.

But thats the question, whats an honest job?

As was pointed out in another thread Enda Kenny received €285,277 in expenses, on top of his salary, not so long back. Did he really need all of that?

Gilmore was fairly cut down to size by MM this evening - despite the fact that FF should have been a walking target for the Labour leader.

How about the rest of them? SF - need I mention their so called policies and slight connection with a certain organisations*?

Honesty is an interesting idea in politics.


*I've self edited my previous comment - SF are a political party and deserve respect for it

gallinini

Snakeblood wrote: »

He did come across better, I thought. Depressing.

Yes MM did come across as a better speaker but then again he is a FF man... and we all know how good they are at waffling. God does anyone remember how Haughey could spin a yarn without batting an eyelid, and we all know what a gangster he turned out to be.

K_user

gallinini wrote: »

Yes MM did come across as a better speaker but then again he is a FF man... and we all know how good they are at waffling. God does anyone remember how Haughey could spin a yarn without batting an eyelid, and we all know what a gangster he turned out to be.

Don't gangsters go to prison?

gallinini

K_user wrote: »

Don't gangsters go to prison?

In most civilised countries yes.. but apparently not in our wonderful island of Ireland...

Wide Road

smokedeels wrote: »

I'm going back to voting locally for the lad who expediently fixes potholes, and the party most liberal towards matters like equality and secularism.

Anyone else disillusioned, or do you have a firm idea where you stand?

You're in favour of parish pump politics.
Well done, at least you know your limitations.

bernardo mac

Yes,I was surprised too at Gilmore's "ammunitionless " unaggressive performance.But this is but Rd1.I expect a better prepared brief next time.MM is a feisty performer but he's fighting a losing wicket.Early days

Lapin

I think Enda Kenny is the real winner of last nights debate.

Sir Oxman

gallinini wrote: »

In most civilised countries yes.. but apparently not in our wonderful island of Ireland...

Especially when you have an ex-FF PD in govt with FF making very unusual public comments which possibly prohibit any chance of him going on trial.
Funny that.

bobgob

Lapin wrote: »

I think Enda Kenny is the real winner of last nights debate.

I take it you are joking, the leaders of both the main parties(before the election) have nothing going for them, Martin is a man who has nothing to lose because his party was doomed before he took over and keeps telling all who will listen that he knew nothing about all the ****e that went on, Kenny was doomed before the election was even muted because he refused to go when he was told it was best for the party, and as for Gilmore he is doomed because he is not a left wing politician just a mouthpiece for a centralized liberalized green party without the carbon tax. Who won the debate? TV3 thats who.

Lapin

TV3 aren't running for the Dáil though, are they?

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

d'Oracle

smokedeels wrote: »

I'm throwing in the towel, re: the Economic side of Politics; nobody on the Left can present a viable method of Ireland working as some insular Socialist State, and the Centrist Political Parties (I include Labour in that) seem happy to go along with Market Capitalism with an aim to making it work the best it can (basically reducing the harm they accept it does)

We're living in a Global Economy run by a undemocratic Capitalist State named China who have the advantage of not adhering to Human Rights or Unions, we can't compete just follow the trends.

I'm going back to voting locally for the lad who expediently fixes potholes, and the party most liberal towards matters like equality and secularism.

Europe/The World is screwed, Capitalism is bad system but it's to late to go back.

Anyone else disillusioned, or do you have a firm idea where you stand?

You got this from the Debate?

smokedeels

Wide Road wrote: »

You're in favour of parish pump politics.
Well done, at least you know your limitations.

Look, I’ve no formal education in economics; I can only listen to the potential candidates and use the intellect I’ve been given – however limited – to deduce which ideas appeal to me.

And none of them do.

Those who have any hope of getting into power seem to be suggesting that we continue to prop up private enterprise by paying for its losses out of the pockets of ordinary people.

Left wing parties claim the entire system is flawed, but they are unable to articulate how their system would work in practice (I assume they’ve never thought about it because they’ve never considered the possibility of having any real power)

Bipartisan capitalists say we should let the market regulate itself, but I don’t want; health, transport, water or communication to become commodities; surely everyone is entitled to these services equally since they are required to live.

So, yes, I’ve suggested that I stick to voting for the person who can get a decent community centre in my town, better bus services, that type of thing.
And a political party that would, say, legalise abortion, keep the church and state separate, create better levels of equality and a greener environment.

I don’t know how to improve the economy or who to elect that would, so I’m suggesting that I’ll vote based on other reasons, but it’s a shame that I’ve been unable to grasp seemingly the major talking point of this election, again… that’s probably due to my own shortcomings.

Ha, I’ll go back to the Music and Soccer forums

Stabshauptmann

If you dont understand any of the economic stuff, do you still blame FF for bankrupting the country?

Quackles

Go right ahead, I'm sure that candidate will make an EXCELLENT councillor. Oh hang on, did someone say GENERAL election? Vote for someone who'll create 50 jobs in your town but whose party will remove your hospital services, cause further unemployment, cripple our nation with debt and facilitate the brain drain of emigration..

But at least you'll have a community centre and smooth tarmac on your roads.

stock>

Wide Road wrote: »

You're in favour of parish pump politics.
Well done, at least you know your limitations.

Did Mr E Kenny not do the parish pump thing last Tuesday by going to Carraig pn Shannon and snubbing the rest of the country...............