paying back days

hamlet1

:mad:Do primary schools have to pay back the days lost due to the bad weather?Our school lost 9 days and there doesnt seem to be any provision made to work them back.I think that its very unfair if teachers are paid for those days.Most people had to struggle in to work during that weather or else take annual leave or unpaid leave if you couldnt get in.

Toto Wolfcastle

The DES have sent guidelines to secondary schools about making up days. I presume primary schools have been sent the same thing.

See here.

It is up to each school to decide how days are to be made up. I suggest that you contact the school in question to find out how they are planning on making the days up.

As an aside, most teachers also struggled in during that weather. They did not close the schools and had the schools been open on the days they were closed they would, like everyone else, have struggled in as usual. It wasn't that the teachers couldn't get in. Their place of work was closed.

byhookorbycrook

Is it the days made up, as in as childcare or actually the syllabus you are concerned about?

Julieho

I am a parent of school going children myself, so I can fully understand the difficulties that the bad weather posed. The difficulty posed for schools, however, was one that I don't ever again want to encounter, although it seems that weather patterns have changed and it may very well be a feature in the years ahead.

I am a principal of a large primary school and perhaps I can offer you an insight into the other side of the difficulty. In spite of horrendous weather and road conditions, we, like hundreds of schools up and down the country managed to remain opened.

It was one of the most horrific months I have had as principal. Each day started at 6 a.m., reviewing conditions, getting texts from staff to know if the school could open. Soon after 7 a.m., I had slip slided my way into school, leaving my own children behind in the hope that they would make their own way to their respective schools. With various staff arriving soon afterwards, we salted the yards, checked the heating, answered calls from parents, consulted with Board of Management members, pushed cars that became stuck in the snow, escorted children through the yards and supervised them. Oops, more salt needed.

The threat of another snowfall and reports that the council hadn't yet salted the hill on the approach to the school that I had telephoned about the previous evening. A text to parents confirming that the school is open but to avoid the hill until it is salted. The council needed to be contacted again. Three teachers are stuck in the snow but are on their way but their classes need to be supervised until they arrive.

The stress each day of having to make that call on whether the school should remain open or not. I lay awake each night with the worry that any child, parent or staff member would be injured or worse and if it came to pass, guess who would have been blamed.

After the usual day of work, preparing for Christmas concerts and attending to the end of year paperwork, it was back to reviewing arrangements for the next day. Many parents pleading with me to close the school, while many others were pleading to keep it open.

Each night, I made my way back in to ensure heating was on, pipes were not burst etc. etc. The usual round of calls and texts from staff before it was time for bed, where I lay awake once again. On Saturday and Sunday, it was the same, trying to ensure that the buildings were adequately heated, reviewing conditions early and late. It didn't stop on the 23rd December either. Christmas Eve was the same as school insurers warned that if pipes burst due to inadequate heat, there would be no insurance cover. On St. Stephen's morning, I was back into school as there was a report of burst pipes. Oh no, there goes any chance of unwinding after the month from hell....

This is not a rant or a moan. I love my work and I value my job. I wonder if hamlet1 ever thought of the other side of this situation? There were many schools that were forced to close, on health and safety grounds. That didn't mean that teachers up and down the country were not doing what my staff and I were doing. Should we be paid extra for doing all we did? No, we were only doing what we did for the health and safety of all of those in our school community. There were several days when I wondered if we did the right thing by remaining open. Was it fair on us to be put in the position of having to make the choice whether to open or close given that if there were serious accidents, we would be the first in the firing line?

Just a few thoughts..

mikemac

It's primary school, relax OP.
It's not like your children are sitting the Junior or Leaving Cert and missed days this year.

ShamoBuc

@ Juliho - excellent post and you really do paint an accurate picture of ' the other side' with relation to the conditions that school management/teachers faced during the cold spell. As a teacher and parent I can see from both sides aswell.
As a teacher I went to school everyday and I can honestly say -treacherous- is the only word to describe my journey on some of those days. The roads nearest the school were the worst! The yard was an ice rink - but thankfully the caretaker and principal had been in EARLY and had the heating on throughout the school and salt dispersed to make a 'runway' effect in the yard to allow the children walk safely into the school premises.
I kept my child at home for 3 days even though her school was open - I decided the approach roads were just too dangerous - her school closed later in the week!
Some reasons why schools closed -Their heating system had broken ( probably outdated)
- their pipes had frozen ( no water = no school - Health and safety, toilets etc)
- approach roads too dangerous ( especially those on built on a hill )
- weather conditions left no other choice
- alot of schools are not on main roads, therefore approach roads Not gritted = too dangerous to approach, eg the last thing a driver wants to see as they loose control of a car are children on the footpath.
The Board of management of any school do not take the decision to close a school lightly. They know the difficulties it will undoubtedly cause eg. childcare for working parents etc but the safety of the children and staff should always be to the forefront of their minds - no apology should ever be made for that.
The idea of incorporating 'extra days' into future school calendars that can be utilised for 'snow days' is currently being discussed and rightly so.

Julieho

Thank you all for the feedback. All I really wanted to say was that there was very much another side to the bad weather we all experienced before Christmas. This country has not been equipped or prepared for such eventualities. It upsets me to see teachers being portrayed as taking the easy way out or being on the doss, when I saw things from the other side. As I typed, I recalled an image of myself, driving through the snow to try to find more salt for salting the yards. Everywhere I went, they were 'just sold out'. All schools I knew, people were making similar efforts behind the scenes. Many schools were left without water due to pipes freezing. These schools had no option but to close, as there were no toilet facilities. Should the teachers be penalised for something that was not of their choice or making? I can recall teachers who had put so much work into preparing Christmas concerts. The last thing they wanted, after all the effort, was for the school to close. In most cases, there was absolutely no option and the decision was taken to close on health and safety grounds of the children and families.

Fairdues

My son's school stayed open through all the bad weather. I knew the principal and staff were having a very hard time and I didn't envy them. From reading the post by julieho, I can now fully understand just how awful it was for them. There were days when I wished our school had closed but they managed to hold on to their water supply and they seemed to be doing all the things that julieho described as well.

As parents, I suppose we are sometimes too quick to find fault but often not fast enough to acknowledge the many times when teachers go above and well beyond the call of duty. I suppose we are living in times when people have become disillusioned so often look for somebody to complain about. I would be interested to hear the response of the OP as the answer to his/her question has been very well offered by julieho and others. Well hamlet1?

ShamoBuc

Fair dues Fairdues;)

hamlet1

Fairdues wrote: »

My son's school stayed open through all the bad weather. I knew the principal and staff were having a very hard time and I didn't envy them. From reading the post by julieho, I can now fully understand just how awful it was for them. There were days when I wished our school had closed but they managed to hold on to their water supply and they seemed to be doing all the things that julieho described as well.

As parents, I suppose we are sometimes too quick to find fault but often not fast enough to acknowledge the many times when teachers go above and well beyond the call of duty. I suppose we are living in times when people have become disillusioned so often look for somebody to complain about. I would be interested to hear the response of the OP as the answer to his/her question has been very well offered by julieho and others. Well hamlet1?

I can appreciate the stress you were under as principal,but teachers did not turn up for work in our school as we knew the night before that the school would be closed the next day.My point is,is that they have been paid for days that they did not work.If I had missed work due to the bad weather,I would have had to take annual leave or unpaid leave.I just think it is unfair.

PcAngel

So you think it's unfair. Would you prefer people to travel and get killed or injured. Would you be on then saying they were foolish to travel?

Fairdues

Hamlet1. That was a really disappointing and lame response. Firstly, I am not a principal, I am a parent!!

It was Julieho was the principal. The points that have been consistently made is that in the limited cases where schools closed, there was often little alternative. The truth is that in the case of children in schools, we are not geared up for dealing with bad weather. If the school is closed, it is not a decision that is taken lightly and it is not the decision of the teachers.

Please, please, don't blame the teachers if the water pipes froze or if the roads were impassible. If you say you would not have been paid in such circumstances, this begs the questu=ion, 'What line of work are you in?'

E.T.

hamlet1 wrote: »

I can appreciate the stress you were under as principal,but teachers did not turn up for work in our school as we knew the night before that the school would be closed the next day.My point is,is that they have been paid for days that they did not work.If I had missed work due to the bad weather,I would have had to take annual leave or unpaid leave.I just think it is unfair.

So do you expect people to turn up at their workplace even if they've been informed the night before that it's closed due to health and safety reasons? Once the BOM decide to close the school on these grounds, then that's it. I'm assuming (correct me if I'm wrong) that insurance companies won't cover teachers who turn up if the school is closed on these grounds?

You're talking about a different situation when you say you'd have had to take unpaid leave - this means your workplace is still open. If your boss decides to close your workplace and then tells you that you'll have to take unpaid leave, then this is definitely unfair, and I'd wonder if it's even legal.

Fairdues

E.T. wrote: »

So do you expect people to turn up at their workplace even if they've been informed the night before that it's closed due to health and safety reasons? Once the BOM decide to close the school on these grounds, then that's it. I'm assuming (correct me if I'm wrong) that insurance companies won't cover teachers who turn up if the school is closed on these grounds?

You're talking about a different situation when you say you'd have had to take unpaid leave - this means your workplace is still open. If your boss decides to close your workplace and then tells you that you'll have to take unpaid leave, then this is definitely unfair, and I'd wonder if it's even legal.

ET, I was just about to make an identical point to the one you have made. Hamlet1, it was not a case of teachers not turning up for work due to the bad weather. The reason the teachers did not travel was because their place of work was closed and they had been informed the night before. Effectively, a decision had been taken, on health and Safety grounds, so they did not have any part in that decision. So if somebody is locked out of their place of work, through no fault of their own, you reckon it is their fault? I'm looking at this from the point of view of a parent but I have to be able to see things from the point of view of the teachers also. If a plane is hit by lightning and obviously is unfit to travel on a scheduled flight the next day, it is hardly the fault of the cabin crew if the flight is cancelled and they are instructed accordingly?

hamlet1

Fairdues wrote: »

ET, I was just about to make an identical point to the one you have made. Hamlet1, it was not a case of teachers not turning up for work due to the bad weather. The reason the teachers did not travel was because their place of work was closed and they had been informed the night before. Effectively, a decision had been taken, on health and Safety grounds, so they did not have any part in that decision. So if somebody is locked out of their place of work, through no fault of their own, you reckon it is their fault? I'm looking at this from the point of view of a parent but I have to be able to see things from the point of view of the teachers also. If a plane is hit by lightning and obviously is unfit to travel on a scheduled flight the next day, it is hardly the fault of the cabin crew if the flight is cancelled and they are instructed accordingly?

Bottom line is if they didnt work the days they should not be paid or else they should pay back the days.No wonder this country is broke.

Insect Overlord

You sound like the jealous kid who gets upset because he gets to play with the straws instead of the jigsaws. Get over it, to be honest.

ShamoBuc

hamlet1 wrote: »

Bottom line is if they didnt work the days they should not be paid or else they should pay back the days.No wonder this country is broke.

The country is broke because of teachers, ok:rolleyes:

Fairdues

ShamoBuc wrote: »

The country is broke because of teachers, ok:rolleyes:

There seems to be a lot of bitterness on the part of OP. Can't help feeling that there must be a grudge involved here. Hamlet1, you never addressed the question I asked. What line of work are you in, to say that if you were prevented from working, through absolutely no fault of your own, that you should not / would not be paid? I have to agree with Insect Overlord. You are beginning to sound like a dog in the manger, the spoiled child. If I can't have it, then nobody else can have it either....

byhookorbycrook

Funny how we get no credit for training teams, holding concerts, bag-packing, school trips,sacraments on our own time.

IF the OP is so concerned over time missed, I suggest s/he asks the school to cancel the school tours and sports day.

D4RK ONION

OP has his/her answer, I'm closing this one off.