Reluctance of members of An Garda Síochána to draw batons

pure_mule

Mods feel free to close this threat immeadiately you feel it infringes on any operational procedures.

Arising from todays spat between the GRA and the GSOC.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2011/0208/garda.html

I am just wondering what Full-time/Reserve members think of this situation.

Personally, I am a Reserve member with ambitions of joining the full-time force and I would be extremely reluctant to draw my baton for fear of repurcussions which may hinder my progression into the full-time force.

This situation may put myself (and indeed the full time member alongside me) at risk but I cannot help but feel that the threat of a GSOC investigation and/or a civil case outweigh the risk of being assaulted.

I suppose I am just wondering do other members feel like this?

shampon

pure_mule wrote: »

Mods feel free to close this threat immeadiately you feel it infringes on any operational procedures.

Arising from todays spat between the GRA and the GSOC.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2011/0208/garda.html

I am just wondering what Full-time/Reserve members think of this situation.

Personally, I am a Reserve member with ambitions of joining the full-time force and I would be extremely reluctant to draw my baton for fear of repurcussions which may hinder my progression into the full-time force.

This situation may put myself (and indeed the full time member alongside me) at risk but I cannot help but feel that the threat of a GSOC investigation and/or a civil case outweigh the risk of being assaulted.

I suppose I am just wondering do other members feel like this?

I cant see how drawing your ASP could hinder your progression into the force, once the use of the ASP was justified and proportionate to the situation. I think the issue was that the lad had taken a few licks off a baton then died (of a drugs overdose), so his family might have wanted answers in relation to his death, which they are fully entitled to do in my opinion.

Personally I would only draw the ASP if I was in danger of being beaten to a pulp or told to by the full-time member/s.

pure_mule

pure_mule wrote: »

Personally, I am a Reserve member with ambitions of joining the full-time force and I would be extremely reluctant to draw my baton for fear of repurcussions which may hinder my progression into the full-time force.

This situation may put myself (and indeed the full time member alongside me) at risk but I cannot help but feel that the threat of a GSOC investigation and/or a civil case outweigh the risk of being assaulted.

If this is going to be your thinking you may as well stay in the station. If the situation warrants it then don't think about it or wait for your colleague to draw it, just do it remembering the four things you are told in training.

jc1980

Theres a good book called Taken Down In Evidence written about the guards sometime around the mid nineties. Loads of story's in it from the guards themselves. Many said they would never carry a baton (this was back when they were wooden now) because if they had to use it and ended up hurting someone they could lose there job and it was near impossible for someone who used to be a guard to get another job. Other lads in the book swore by them. I suppose this was back before vests and spray but would make you wonder. Really interesting book if anyone has read it.

emptyshed

Spray!!

And of course we can all see why they would be reluctant to use a metal baton, public doesnt see the start of the incident, but they all notice the Garda striking the bad guy wth the baton.

mbeire

shampon wrote: »

Personally I would only draw the ASP if I was in danger of being beaten to a pulp or told to by the full-time member/s.

Just advice to Shampon and other members; In day-to-day policing situations the decision to draw your baton is an individual decision you make yourself, not when told to do so by a full-timer, as you will be held responsible for drawing it, and no one else.

Hooch

Once you use reasonable force you have NOTHING to worry about.....nothing.

Newer members dont know how lucky they are to have an ASP. The old wooden baton was too small and when needed was useless. I broke more than one to no effect. The ASP requires one strike.....the old wooden one required several.

Reasonable force is the main point here. I have never once regretted nor second guessed the drawing, nor using of a baton.


Mod note....just to add, no talk of directives etc. I know ye all know that but just a reminder

Hooch

pure_mule wrote: »

Personally, I am a Reserve member with ambitions of joining the full-time force and I would be extremely reluctant to draw my baton for fear of repurcussions which may hinder my progression into the full-time force.

This situation may put myself (and indeed the full time member alongside me) at risk but I cannot help but feel that the threat of a GSOC investigation and/or a civil case outweigh the risk of being assaulted.

With all due respect to you.....I really hope you are not a reserve I ever have to work with.

The threat of a GSOC investigation or civil case should not impede a member in the course of their duty once members follow correct procedure.

eroo

As a Reserve member, no I would have no fears of reprecussions.. provided the use of the ASP was reasonable. Once you have been trained to use it, you should understand it is not there to damage your career/ambitions, it is there to protect you and your colleagues as well as members of the public.

If you are reluctant to use it, then you are in the wrong job. Police officers worldwide encounter violence on a daily basis. It is their duty to protect themselves, their colleagues and members of the public against said violence.

shampon

mbeire wrote: »

Just advice to Shampon and other members; In day-to-day policing situations the decision to draw your baton is an individual decision you make yourself, not when told to do so by a full-timer, as you will be held responsible for drawing it, and no one else.

Advice heeded Sir, thank you. I should rephrase my original statement, I would have no hesitation drawing it again. It's there for our and the publics protection at the end of the day and could well be the deciding factor in whether or not you go home safe and well or end up in the hospital...you have it for a reason at the end of the day...

Zambia

I can understand the reluctance of members of the reserve to draw batons. I assume a lot of members of the reserve would like to be full time.

A reserve would of course feel their future full time employment would be jeopardised by an allegation of excessive force. Especially with the low numbers being admitted and the competion so tight.

If you are full time by the time you are out on the street you would feel some sense of job security. So an incident would lead to hard questions but not the possiblity of not ever being employed.

However that all said these decisions are the job. The whole nature of police work is making people accountable for their actions. It stands to reason that police will held accountable for theirs by both the law, the public and their colleagues.

The way I would consider it is drawing the Baton may get you in trouble but not drawing could get you in hospital.

EDIT I should add that the members above gave the best advice. If force used is reasonable and proptionate all should be well

CaseyRyback

Zambia wrote: »

The way I would consider it is drawing the Baton may get you in trouble but not drawing could get you in hospital.

Better to be judged by twelve than carried by six.

Manic Moran

It is considered to be one of the reasons for the rise of the use of the Taser in the US. Although there are plenty of times when a clout or two with the baton will do the job quite well and there is no need for the Taser, when put on Youtube by an outraged member of the populace, it looks far worse than a simple 'Zap' does.

NTM

CaseyRyback

Complaining of excessive force has simply become the latest tool in the arsenal of those who seek to frustrate the criminal process so, regardless of method employed be it empty hand strike, takedown, baton, taser etc, a complaint will be lodged in the hope that it will somehow affect the outcome of a prosecution.

Sempai

Never used my baton, too much paperwork!

WilcoOut

I would have no hesitation drawing my baton and striking in a hairy situation.

I would not jeapordise my safety, the safety of my colleagues and that of the public in fear of any future progression into the fulltime force.

In my eyes, should you fail to draw your baton in a violent/dangerous situation where it is needed, you are not fit to be a reserve or fulltime member. Safety is paramount.

480905

It's better to be tried by twelve than carried by six. Amen.

deadwood

I'm reluctant to draw mine.

I can't help drawing hairy goolies on the end.