Fine Gael and the Irish Question

pernod_oclock

I've looked through the forum for a few pages and saw nothing on this particular topic so I thought I'd wade in to ask a couple of questions and put across my point of view.

I see today that Fine Gael has announced 2500 more teaching posts between now and 2014. I'm as convinced about that as I am about any of the parties' pledges but at the same time there is the Fine Gael pledge to do away with Irish as a compulsory Leaving Certificate subject. Maybe we should take this with the pinch of salt we treat any pre-election promise with, but it's still a concern.

Firstly, does anyone think there's a good possibility of this being pushed through, even if Fine Gael lead the next government, most likely being supported in coalition with Labour and Sinn Féin or as a minority government with Fianna Fáil using the Tallaght Strategy? They all sound pretty unlikely to support the proposal. And there's all the other interest groups who'll be up in arms ar son na cúise. Could they really relegate the first official language of the country and still protect the secondary one legally?

If they do - and here's the selfish teacher bit - what effect would such a move have on Irish teacher numbers? If the prospects currently stand relatively okay at the moment of getting some kind of Irish post, what would the likely effect of this all be on that?

Personally, if I were to find an argument to make Irish optional at Leaving Cert, it definitely wouldn't be the one I heard from Enda Kenny, talking about the shame that young people in the country can't use their own nation's language. I agree it's a great worry and one that the Leaving Cert course has been altered drastically - to calls of dumbing down - to try and tackle. If he believed his argument, how will this move help those young people who struggle with the language? They're just going to drop it, aren't they? And they're not going to improve without any more classes in it after Junior Cert. So they won't be any more proficient in it than in the system we have now.

Like everyone else in the country, I did Maths all the way through school. Like those young people Enda Kenny makes reference to, I struggled with it and would be in a silimar situation to them if asked to put my maths skills in practice. I do retain the concept of tax credits, time distance speed, and strangely vectors but as for all the rest of the things covered since HL JC, I really haven't a clue. I have never been able to long divide and never attempted it in an exam. I don't blame my teachers. I still think it was worthwhile to make me to continue on with it. I don't begrudge anyone the hours I spent on concepts that never even crossed my mind since. It was in the interest of education

We have multinational company after multinational company citing one of the main attractions to Ireland is its educational system and the bright young potential employees it produces. That's right, lots of sought-after potential employees who pretty much all did Irish throughout school. I'm not seeing the great hinderence myself. Some people will always struggle with it, like people will always struggle with maths, or any other subject.

awny

OP Out of curiousity, where did you see about the 2500 new teaching posts?

pernod_oclock

Fine Gael has said it will increase the number of school teachers by 2,500.


Announcing plans to protect frontline services, the party said it can credibly commit to increasing teacher numbers between now and 2014 to maintain the current teacher pupil ratio.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2011/0208/politics.html

Lord TSC

Without meaning to be rude, there's currently two topics on the "Irish in schools" debate going at the moment.

This one was over 2,000 posts...
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055958148

And this one has nearly 1,200 posts...
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056104303

It's been a pretty hectic and repeditive debate tbh, and not one I think we need to be starting up all over again since both sides seem pretty stuck in their views...

(EDIT: For the record, the links were provided when this topic was on the politics board, and I guess are a little less nessecary since I don't think there's such a debate raging on the Teaching and Lecturing Board).

pernod_oclock

Fair enough, the latter one does seem to cover half of what I asked earlier. I'm not particularly interested in the right to have Irish taught in the wider, princinpled sense. More in what way it would affect teachers, schools, and if this move would be backed by schools and teachers in general. It is, after all, in their sphere that this would take place.

EoghanRua

Teamshadowclan wrote: »

Without meaning to be rude, there's currently two topics on the "Irish in schools" debate going at the moment.

This one was over 2,000 posts...
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055958148

And this one has nearly 1,200 posts...
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056104303

It's been a pretty hectic and repeditive debate tbh, and not one I think we need to be starting up all over again since both sides seem pretty stuck in their views...

(EDIT: For the record, the links were provided when this topic was on the politics board, and I guess are a little less nessecary since I don't think there's such a debate raging on the Teaching and Lecturing Board).

In all fairness, anything on the politics forum in relation to this sort of issue is normally bonkers.

EoghanRua

pernod_oclock wrote: »

Personally, if I were to find an argument to make Irish optional at Leaving Cert, it definitely wouldn't be the one I heard from Enda Kenny, talking about the shame that young people in the country can't use their own nation's language. I agree it's a great worry and one that the Leaving Cert course has been altered drastically - to calls of dumbing down - to try and tackle. If he believed his argument, how will this move help those young people who struggle with the language? They're just going to drop it, aren't they? And they're not going to improve without any more classes in it after Junior Cert. So they won't be any more proficient in it than in the system we have now.

Well obviously the 'make it optional and everyone will take it up' is a ludricous argument. The notion that compulsion has even the vaguest thing to do with (a) the lack of perceived popularity of the language in schools and (b) standards of Irish, is nuts but it's remarkable how many people posit this false argument.

If it were true then making Maths optional would be the solution to poor Maths grades. But of course any rational person knows it's not the case. How it can logically be the case in Irish beats me.

Incidentally I would not necessarily agree that the Leaving Cert is dumbed down under the new system. I think it'll be quite challenging for weaker students to have the orals broadened in the way that they are. But time will tell I suppose.

Will it affect Irish teacher numbers...well presumably it will in one way, but then again most will have a second subject anyway.

byhookorbycrook

Announcing plans to protect frontline services, the party said it can credibly commit to increasing teacher numbers between now and 2014 to maintain the current teacher pupil ratio.

So basically, PTR will not be reduced, they will just employ teachers because they have to, not to improve things.

E.T.

And, don't forget, they seem to be using Fianna Fail's misleading pupil-teacher ratio, which includes all teachers in a school (ie resource, learning-support, RTT, EAL if they're in a school) to falsely lower the ratio.

dambarude

I'd be worried about making LC Irish optional. It's likely that standards would drop massively if it happened. At Junior Cert level many would say 'I'm not doing it for LC, so it doesn't matter how I do in it as long as I pass'. That's the attitude most students in my school had towards doing JC Religion, which was compulsory.

What would end up happening is that much smaller numbers would be able to speak the language. But they probably wouldn't be speaking it an awful lot better than the current standard of LC Irish (which is abysmal).

I couldn't see more than 30-40% choosing to take Irish if it was optional.

EoghanRua

dambarude wrote: »

I'd be worried about making LC Irish optional. It's likely that standards would drop massively if it happened.

Quite possibly, but of course FG has already positioned their argument that - according to Fergus O'Dowd - a higher proportion (not a higher number mind) will sit Higher level Irish by 2018. They might well be right in that the brighter ambitious college-bound students will still sit the honours and the many who have no interest in anything that involves doing any work will take the easy option and not do Irish - they would inevitably have been pass students anyway. So FG can claim they have achieved something by statistical distortion but won't have served the language one iota.

drusk

There's no need to worry about this.

The simple solution is to divide Irish into TWO subjects - Language AND Literature.

The reason so many people come away with better French/German/Spanish after the LC is because they become so disheartened with the emphasis placed on literature as Gaeilge.

If there were two Irish subjects - Language (compulsory) and Literature (optional) - the gra for our national language would be immense. We'd be churning out happy, fluent Irish speakers year in year out. Moreover, it wouldn't cause much upset to the employment of Irish teachers and the system in general.

They can't just come in and drop a core subject like that. But, in fairness, it does need to be changed.

EoghanRua

drusk wrote: »

There's no need to worry about this.

The simple solution is to divide Irish into TWO subjects - Language AND Literature.

The reason so many people come away with better French/German/Spanish after the LC is because they become so disheartened with the emphasis placed on literature as Gaeilge.

If there were two Irish subjects - Language (compulsory) and Literature (optional) - the gra for our national language would be immense. We'd be churning out happy, fluent Irish speakers year in year out. Moreover, it wouldn't cause much upset to the employment of Irish teachers and the system in general.

They can't just come in and drop a core subject like that. But, in fairness, it does need to be changed.

This changes have already been made in that the literature content is now just five poems and five pieces of prose even for Honours. Over two years that's hardly overload.

pernod_oclock

Series of EoghanRua quotations...haven't worked out how to show that yet!

This changes have already been made in that the literature content is now just five poems and five pieces of prose even for Honours. Over two years that's hardly overload.

Exactly. The oral exam now constitutes 40% of the marks for the Leaving Certificate. That's a huge shift and really puts the focus of the spoken language. With this change already in place, I don't see where the huge urgent need to make Irish optional comes from. Why not just watch the results from the next few years to see if any differences or improvements are being made? If nothing's getting better within 5 years, then by all means weigh up the "optional" option.

Incidentally I would not necessarily agree that the Leaving Cert is dumbed down under the new system. I think it'll be quite challenging for weaker students to have the orals broadened in the way that they are. But time will tell I suppose.

I wouldn't be one of the people calling it dumbing down, but it is a term being thrown about over the move. I definitely found the oral the most nerve-wrecking experience of the Irish course and still, in the PGDE, find myself daunted by the prospect of oral exams much more than a written paper.

Will it affect Irish teacher numbers...well presumably it will in one way, but then again most will have a second subject anyway.

But where's the hours to spare in the other subjects? I would expect it will be Irish that might get me a job this year, and not CSPE!

If it were true then making Maths optional would be the solution to poor Maths grades. But of course any rational person knows it's not the case. How it can logically be the case in Irish beats me.

Agree 100%. It cannot be from a pro-Gaeilge stance these logistics are being concocted. If the party really have had it on their manifesto for 50 years to make Irish optional "to help keep the language alive", they'd be proposing the same for Maths. If they've had, as I suspect (bordering on being political here, sorry!) a problem with Irish for half a century however, they should bloody well just come out with it.

From drusk

The simple solution is to divide Irish into TWO subjects - Language AND Literature.

Indeed, like the English model that seems to work pretty well for them. They're two very different aspects to a language.

delta_bravo

EoghanRua wrote: »

This changes have already been made in that the literature content is now just five poems and five pieces of prose even for Honours. Over two years that's hardly overload.

And the poems appear on the paper so its even less stressful than english. Remember this is a national language, it cant be taught exactly like a foreign language. We must be somewhat aware of the great literary tradition of Irish.

I like the idea of splitting Irish into a literary and "working" subject which emphasises the spoken language but if that happens it cant be made any easier or "dumbed down".

implausible

pernod_oclock wrote: »

Indeed, like the English model that seems to work pretty well for them. They're two very different aspects to a language.

Even though the English exam paper is in two sections, the subject is not taught in two discrete parts. The literature feeds into the language and vice-versa.

The system is not perfect; there is no Foundation Level at LC, which leaves those who don't have English as a first language struggling with novels, archaic plays and worse still, poetry.

delta_bravo wrote: »

And the poems appear on the paper so its even less stressful than english. Remember this is a national language, it cant be taught exactly like a foreign language. We must be somewhat aware of the great literary tradition of Irish.

I like the idea of splitting Irish into a literary and "working" subject which emphasises the spoken language but if that happens it cant be made any easier or "dumbed down".

The poems appear on the page in Ordinary Level English - a concession I suspect to the fact that there is no Foundation Level.

As for splitting Irish into two subjects (optional or not), I fear we will lose the cultural aspect of the language if this is done. The problem is with the texts that are chosen for study and the overall lack of appeal to young people.

I think making it optional is just another headline policy by FG. In practise, you're talking about reduced uptake in general, decline in particular areas and thousands of teaching hours that will have to be 'redeployed' within schools.

pernod_oclock

deemark wrote: »

Even though the English exam paper is in two sections, the subject is not taught in two discrete parts. The literature feeds into the language and vice-versa.

I should have been clearer...I meant the actual English exam in England, where one can do English Lit or English Language or both.

deemark wrote: »

In practise, you're talking about reduced uptake in general, decline in particular areas and thousands of teaching hours that will have to be 'redeployed' within schools.

Indeed. It seems to be a policy that would cause more headaches than it would realistically solve.

drusk

Irish teachers / proponents of keeping the subject compulsory AS IT IS need to address the elephant in the room.

WHY, year after year, do LC students come away from secondary school with more French/German/Spanish than Irish, even though they've studied the latter for way longer?

If you listen to the media and the politicians talk about the "problem with Irish" you'll hear them say that not enough people can SPEAK, yes SPEAK the language after the LC. The reason is simple - let's be honest about this - it's because the literature aspect of the language holds no interest for most people.

Somebody mentioned that the literature on the course has been reduced to 5 poems and 5 prose. That's 5 poems and 5 prose too many. Poetry and prose are not of interest to people that want to SPEAK a language on a day-to-day basis. With regards to the cultural aspects of the language - BOLLOCKS! If someone wants to study the cultural intricacies of Gaeilge, let them CHOOSE to do it. That should NOT be compulsory!

If you want Irish to remain compulsory as it is - then you're ignoring the elephant in the room to suit your own agenda. Irish will continue to die.

Solution, as I've said already - TWO subjects Irish language (compulsory) and Irish literature (optional)

dambarude

drusk wrote: »

Solution, as I've said already - TWO subjects Irish language (compulsory) and Irish literature (optional)

This option would be fairer for Gaeltacht students as well, in that they'd have a proper literature course like Galltacht people have with English.

Toto Wolfcastle

I've always said that the literature aspect of the Irish curriculum is unnecessary. I like the idea of a language class and an optional literature class. The literature takes up far far too much time. It's not even worth that much.

Powerhouse

drusk wrote: »

Irish teachers / proponents of keeping the subject compulsory AS IT IS need to address the elephant in the room.

WHY, year after year, do LC students come away from secondary school with more French/German/Spanish than Irish, even though they've studied the latter for way longer?

If you listen to the media and the politicians talk about the "problem with Irish" you'll hear them say that not enough people can SPEAK, yes SPEAK the language after the LC. The reason is simple - let's be honest about this - it's because the literature aspect of the language holds no interest for most people.

Somebody mentioned that the literature on the course has been reduced to 5 poems and 5 prose. That's 5 poems and 5 prose too many. Poetry and prose are not of interest to people that want to SPEAK a language on a day-to-day basis. With regards to the cultural aspects of the language - BOLLOCKS! If someone wants to study the cultural intricacies of Gaeilge, let them CHOOSE to do it. That should NOT be compulsory!

If you want Irish to remain compulsory as it is - then you're ignoring the elephant in the room to suit your own agenda. Irish will continue to die.

Solution, as I've said already - TWO subjects Irish language (compulsory) and Irish literature (optional)

"WHY, year after year, do LC students come away from secondary school with more French/German/Spanish than Irish, even though they've studied the latter for way longer?"

This is unproven. I realise it's a tremendous cliché but I cannot see how it can be measured except in an "everyone knows" sort of way. It does seem logical that the average student of French/German/Spanish should have a higher standard than the student of Irish as the weaker students will tend to give up a language (which they usually cannot do with Irish) as soon as the opportunity presents itself and this skews statistics. But even allowing for this skewing the statistics upwards for those European languages they do not suggest huge achievement among Irish students.

For example even though only three and a half thousand students sat the Leaving Cert Spanish last year some 44 per cent did the pass paper. In French 48 per cent did pass. Given that they would be self-selecting groups doing the subjects as options you'd expect figures for Honours papers to be in a huge majority. Even in English 36 per cent of Irish students sat the pass paper FFS! A higher percentage of students get A's in Irish than in English every year. So some of what you say is misleading.

You also neglect to add that, say, in French - which allegedly Irish students have a better grasp of than Irish - students are asked and can answer some questions in English, which is a farce really. Even in Foundation Level Irish this does not happen. This really undermines claims that students have a better grasp of other languages.

I have to be honest and say - unplatable as it is for some people - that in my experience a lot comes down to sheer intelligence and work-rate rather than anything else. To talk about lack of interest in literature among teenagers is utterly missing the point. Students even in an honours Junior Cert class will find English plays and poetry fairly boring and pointless. But those with the grey matter and application get through these things. Those with less of it struggle.

I know of a guy recently in a History test who was asked to name one of the abuses in the pre-reformation church and he wrote "you would get beaten up" as the answer. Another guy wrote the answer to his People in History question on the French Revolution on Henry VIII of England. You can be assured that the stumbling block to these guys grasping Irish is not the literature part of the course. And I'd be surprised if their French or Spanish was word-perfect either.

It is also dubious to say that "Poetry and prose are not of interest to people that want to SPEAK a language on a day-to-day basis". Notwithstanding what I wrote earlier about general lack of interest in literature, speaking the language and an interest in literature are certainly not mutually exclusive.

There are many unacknowleged elephants in rooms when it comes to Irish education.

MathsManiac

EoghanRua wrote: »

...
If it were true then making Maths optional would be the solution to poor Maths grades. But of course any rational person knows it's not the case. How it can logically be the case in Irish beats me.
...

Point of information: maths is not compulsory for Leaving Cert. The only compulsory subject is Irish.

pernod_oclock

MathsManiac wrote: »

Point of information: maths is not compulsory for Leaving Cert. The only compulsory subject is Irish.

Why didn't I know this / make use of its optional-ness and save myself a load of bother?!!!! I'm sure more people end up not doing the Irish exam than the Maths exam.

MathsManiac

pernod_oclock wrote: »

Why didn't I know this / make use of its optional-ness and save myself a load of bother?!!!! I'm sure more people end up not doing the Irish exam than the Maths exam.

Since, along with English, it's an entry requirement for a very wide range of 3rd level courses, schools treat it as a compulsory subject. So most people don't realise that, as far as the Department's regulations are concerned, it's not compulsory.

pernod_oclock

MathsManiac wrote: »

Since, along with English, it's an entry requirement for a very wide range of 3rd level courses, schools treat it as a compulsory subject. So most people don't realise that, as far as the Department's regulations are concerned, it's not compulsory.

Very interesting indeed. Thanks for pointing that out.

dambarude wrote: »

This option would be fairer for Gaeltacht students as well, in that they'd have a proper literature course like Galltacht people have with English.

I've often thought about this as well. For those students that do enjoy literature, the new course set up only really gives a taster of the real treasure-trove of Irish language literature out there, a taster unevenly skewered toward the very modern to keep the majority on board.

Btw, when did the French course do away with most of its literature content? It's very very communication/comprehension-based now.

Rosita

MathsManiac wrote: »

Point of information: maths is not compulsory for Leaving Cert. The only compulsory subject is Irish.

As with many comments which begin with the words ' point of information' this is a pointless anally-retentive and utterly misleading observation.

There were more Leaving Cert sits in Maths than in English in 2010, and there are always about 8k more sits in Maths than in Irish at Junior and Leaving Cert level.

'Not compulsory' my eye. The evidence suggests that far more people get an option to not do Irish than get an option to not do Maths.

It can be argued that Irish is not compulsory at all - what exactly happens if you don't do it? Do you fail the Leaving Cert...no? Do you fail to get into college...certainly not - it might be a pre-requisite for certain courses but Irish is not alone in that. Only schools which accept public funding are required to teach it...so strictly speaking it is not compulsory per se. And if it is compulsory then how come so many are able to not do it?

But to make such arguments would be to miss the point as you have done in your observation. It shows, I suppose, the distinction between accuracy (in the world of punctilious pedantry) and truth (the real world experience). As with many things "most people don't realise", people don't realise it because it has little or no practical application.

MathsManiac

Rosita wrote: »

As with many comments which begin with the words ' point of information' this is a pointless anally-retentive and utterly misleading observation.

There were more Leaving Cert sits in Maths than in English in 2010, and there are always about 8k more sits in Maths than in Irish at Junior and Leaving Cert level.

'Not compulsory' my eye. The evidence suggests that far more people get an option to not do Irish than get an option to not do Maths.

It can be argued that Irish is not compulsory at all - what exactly happens if you don't do it? Do you fail the Leaving Cert...no? Do you fail to get into college...certainly not - it might be a pre-requisite for certain courses but Irish is not alone in that. Only schools which accept public funding are required to teach it...so strictly speaking it is not compulsory per se. And if it is compulsory then how come so many are able to not do it?

But to make such arguments would be to miss the point as you have done in your observation. It shows, I suppose, the distinction between accuracy (in the world of punctilious pedantry) and truth (the real world experience). As with many things "most people don't realise", people don't realise it because it has little or no practical application.

Despite the abuse, I will try to address the points you raise, such as they are. My point of information observation is not a pointless aside. It is very pertinent. The point is that it is university admission requirements, rather than DES regulations, that actually affect how many people want to study a subject. If Fine Gael "makes Irish optional", it will not make a huge difference as long as it continues to be a matriculation requirement for the NUI.

Regarding arguing that Irish is not compulsory at all: I assumed people were familiar with the facts of the situation. It is compulsory in the sense that, in order to be a recognised Senior Cycle student for the purposes of capitation grants and pupil-teacher ratio calculations, the student must be following a programme of study in Irish, unless they qualify for an exemption. It is not compulsory for anyone to sit an examination in it. If you are using the term "compulsory" to mean "you don't have to do it but, for practical reasons, nearly everybody does", then maths and English are compulsory. However, I take compulsory to mean that there is some sort of rule or regulation compelling you to study it.

You ask what happens if you don't do it? The consequence of not achieving at least a D3 in Irish is that, unless you have an exemption, you cannot matriculate to any of the NUI colleges.

The situation in TCD is almost the reverse: you can matriculate without Irish, but not without maths. Having said that, they will accept foundation-level maths for matriculation.

Regarding your observation that: "The evidence suggests that far more people get an option to not do Irish than get an option to not do Maths," and you ask why so many get to opt out. This arises, as is well known, because the rules governing exemptions, the implementation of which is largely devolved to school management, are widely abused. Students who get an exemption in the "special needs" category are supposed to be people who have severe difficulties mastering their mother tongue, to such an extent that attempting to learn a second language would seriously compromise their ability to function in life. It is obviously ridiculous that people who gain an exemption under such a regulation would go on and study another language, and yet the vast majority of them do.

I would suggest that the reason that far more students "get an option not to do Irish" than "get an option not to do maths" is that far fewer make any great effort to escape from doing maths. One of the reasons for this is the widespread but incorrect perception that you have to pass maths to do anything in college. Another reason is that the number of parents who believe that dropping Irish seriously compromises your future life and career is much smaller that the number who believe the same thing about maths, and school managements tend to have a similar view. In fact, very many parents feel that dropping Irish and concentrating on other things will improve their child's chances, and hardly any of them feel that way about maths.

Any obligation that a senior-cycle student feels they are under to study maths is down to school rules, third-level admeission requirements, and general parental and societal perceptions. It is not a consequence of any rule or regulation of the state.

And I also disagree with your final observation that this information has no practical application. I have encountered many students who failed to get into university because they did not achieve a D3 in maths and they did not realise that there is a reasonable range of courses for which maths is not required. If they had included at least one or two such courses on their CAO forms, they would have been ok. I therefore think that it is very regrettable that more people are not aware that there are plenty of options out there for students who either haven't studied maths for Leaving Cert or who have "failed" it.

rainbowtrout

Powerhouse wrote: »

"WHY, year after year, do LC students come away from secondary school with more French/German/Spanish than Irish, even though they've studied the latter for way longer?"

This is unproven. I realise it's a tremendous cliché but I cannot see how it can be measured except in an "everyone knows" sort of way. It does seem logical that the average student of French/German/Spanish should have a higher standard than the student of Irish as the weaker students will tend to give up a language (which they usually cannot do with Irish) as soon as the opportunity presents itself and this skews statistics. But even allowing for this skewing the statistics upwards for those European languages they do not suggest huge achievement among Irish students.

.

Well from my own personal experience, I did French, German and Irish for LC, all higher level and did have a better command of spoken French and German after 5 years than I did of Irish after 13. There are plenty of everyday practical things I can say in French and German which I have used on numerous occasions on holidays which I would struggle with in Irish. However I could (back then) discuss the theme of the poem which was not much use to me in the real world.

Powerhouse wrote: »

For example even though only three and a half thousand students sat the Leaving Cert Spanish last year some 44 per cent did the pass paper. In French 48 per cent did pass. Given that they would be self-selecting groups doing the subjects as options you'd expect figures for Honours papers to be in a huge majority. Even in English 36 per cent of Irish students sat the pass paper FFS! A higher percentage of students get A's in Irish than in English every year. So some of what you say is misleading.

You also neglect to add that, say, in French - which allegedly Irish students have a better grasp of than Irish - students are asked and can answer some questions in English, which is a farce really. Even in Foundation Level Irish this does not happen. This really undermines claims that students have a better grasp of other languages.

Self selecting yes, but often not out of choice. Many university courses still require a pass in a foreign language to meet entry requirements and students who have no great interest in French/German/Spanish or Irish for that matter find themselves taking ordinary level in a foreign language for LC to meet those requirements. Have seen plenty of students over the years take 5 honours and then pass Irish and French. They are usually pretty annoyed that ordinary level French is taking up a valuable space in their subject list where they could take another subject at higher level if the requirement was not there. And they don't want to take 8 subjects because of the workload.

You can't compare the Irish and English course because the Irish course includes an oral and an aural which are not part of the English syllabus. Perhaps there would be a lower percentage of A grades if like was compared with like when comparing English and Irish.

I take your point on questions in English on a French paper, I've always thought it was daft myself, however it does test understanding of whatever passage the student has just read.

The Irish papers might not have a word of English on them, even at Foundation Level, but they have plenty of pictures. I supervised the aural for Foundation Irish a couple of years ago, and was amazed at the number of blank faces in front of me while the tape was playing. Many of the questions were of the format : question in Irish, three pictures below the question depicting three different answers. Listen to the tape and tick the box beside the correct picture. Students didn't have to write a word in any language for some questions, just listen to a conversation to answer a question of the type 'Where are Sean and Sile going on Saturday?' And three pictures would show 'cinema', 'swimming', 'zoo' or whatever. Not particularly testing but difficult for those students who hadn't a clue.

Powerhouse wrote: »

I have to be honest and say - unplatable as it is for some people - that in my experience a lot comes down to sheer intelligence and work-rate rather than anything else. To talk about lack of interest in literature among teenagers is utterly missing the point. Students even in an honours Junior Cert class will find English plays and poetry fairly boring and pointless. But those with the grey matter and application get through these things. Those with less of it struggle.

I know of a guy recently in a History test who was asked to name one of the abuses in the pre-reformation church and he wrote "you would get beaten up" as the answer. Another guy wrote the answer to his People in History question on the French Revolution on Henry VIII of England. You can be assured that the stumbling block to these guys grasping Irish is not the literature part of the course. And I'd be surprised if their French or Spanish was word-perfect either.

It is also dubious to say that "Poetry and prose are not of interest to people that want to SPEAK a language on a day-to-day basis". Notwithstanding what I wrote earlier about general lack of interest in literature, speaking the language and an interest in literature are certainly not mutually exclusive.

There are many unacknowleged elephants in rooms when it comes to Irish education.

Students can't appreciate prose and poetry in another language when they haven't got a good grasp on the language in the first place. At least with JC students who are bored with English prose and poetry can understand it for the most part as it is written in a language in which they are fluent. Not so for those learning poetry and prose through Irish. I came out of leaving cert able to speak french in at least 8 different tenses, in Irish it was just about four. The same four I had learned in primary school.

Not sure what point you're trying to make with the History student. He speaks English, he either has no interest in History, finds it difficult to remember the facts or is simply too lazy to learn. It's not about understanding.


If I went up to my local train station today to ask for a day return ticket to Dublin in Irish I wouldn't be able to. In a roundabout way I'd be able to explain that I wanted a ticket to go to Dublin and that I wanted to return home this evening but not ask directly and simply for the ticket I wanted. I'm able to do this in French and German which is of no use to me in this country!

I'm sure I could come up with plenty of other examples of everyday things I couldn't say in Irish because we didn't learn how to speak on a day to day basis. When people can speak the language maybe then they can appreciate the finer points that prose and poetry can offer.

Rosita

MathsManiac wrote: »

Despite the abuse, I will try to address the points you raise, such as they are. My point of information observation is not a pointless aside. It is very pertinent. The point is that it is university admission requirements, rather than DES regulations, that actually affect how many people want to study a subject. If Fine Gael "makes Irish optional", it will not make a huge difference as long as it continues to be a matriculation requirement for the NUI.

Regarding arguing that Irish is not compulsory at all: I assumed people were familiar with the facts of the situation. It is compulsory in the sense that, in order to be a recognised Senior Cycle student for the purposes of capitation grants and pupil-teacher ratio calculations, the student must be following a programme of study in Irish, unless they qualify for an exemption. It is not compulsory for anyone to sit an examination in it. If you are using the term "compulsory" to mean "you don't have to do it but, for practical reasons, nearly everybody does", then maths and English are compulsory. However, I take compulsory to mean that there is some sort of rule or regulation compelling you to study it.

You ask what happens if you don't do it? The consequence of not achieving at least a D3 in Irish is that, unless you have an exemption, you cannot matriculate to any of the NUI colleges.

The situation in TCD is almost the reverse: you can matriculate without Irish, but not without maths. Having said that, they will accept foundation-level maths for matriculation.

Regarding your observation that: "The evidence suggests that far more people get an option to not do Irish than get an option to not do Maths," and you ask why so many get to opt out. This arises, as is well known, because the rules governing exemptions, the implementation of which is largely devolved to school management, are widely abused. Students who get an exemption in the "special needs" category are supposed to be people who have severe difficulties mastering their mother tongue, to such an extent that attempting to learn a second language would seriously compromise their ability to function in life. It is obviously ridiculous that people who gain an exemption under such a regulation would go on and study another language, and yet the vast majority of them do.

I would suggest that the reason that far more students "get an option not to do Irish" than "get an option not to do maths" is that far fewer make any great effort to escape from doing maths. One of the reasons for this is the widespread but incorrect perception that you have to pass maths to do anything in college. Another reason is that the number of parents who believe that dropping Irish seriously compromises your future life and career is much smaller that the number who believe the same thing about maths, and school managements tend to have a similar view. In fact, very many parents feel that dropping Irish and concentrating on other things will improve their child's chances, and hardly any of them feel that way about maths.

Any obligation that a senior-cycle student feels they are under to study maths is down to school rules, third-level admeission requirements, and general parental and societal perceptions. It is not a consequence of any rule or regulation of the state.

And I also disagree with your final observation that this information has no practical application. I have encountered many students who failed to get into university because they did not achieve a D3 in maths and they did not realise that there is a reasonable range of courses for which maths is not required. If they had included at least one or two such courses on their CAO forms, they would have been ok. I therefore think that it is very regrettable that more people are not aware that there are plenty of options out there for students who either haven't studied maths for Leaving Cert or who have "failed" it.

Again this is like a proposal for a Masters' dissertation in pedantry and sematic hair-splitting. Though I am impressed by your ability to generalise about the mindset of the broader cohort of parents in relation to different subjects. I couldn't do so even about the parents in my own school.

MathsManiac

Rosita wrote: »

Again this is like a proposal for a Masters' dissertation in pedantry and sematic hair-splitting. Though I am impressed by your ability to generalise about the mindset of the broader cohort of parents in relation to different subjects. I couldn't do so even about the parents in my own school.

Never let the facts get in the way of a good rant, eh? :rolleyes:

Powerhouse

rainbowtrout wrote: »

Well from my own personal experience, I did French, German and Irish for LC, all higher level and did have a better command of spoken French and German after 5 years than I did of Irish after 13. There are plenty of everyday practical things I can say in French and German which I have used on numerous occasions on holidays which I would struggle with in Irish. However I could (back then) discuss the theme of the poem which was not much use to me in the real world.



Self selecting yes, but often not out of choice. Many university courses still require a pass in a foreign language to meet entry requirements and students who have no great interest in French/German/Spanish or Irish for that matter find themselves taking ordinary level in a foreign language for LC to meet those requirements. Have seen plenty of students over the years take 5 honours and then pass Irish and French. They are usually pretty annoyed that ordinary level French is taking up a valuable space in their subject list where they could take another subject at higher level if the requirement was not there. And they don't want to take 8 subjects because of the workload.

You can't compare the Irish and English course because the Irish course includes an oral and an aural which are not part of the English syllabus. Perhaps there would be a lower percentage of A grades if like was compared with like when comparing English and Irish.

I take your point on questions in English on a French paper, I've always thought it was daft myself, however it does test understanding of whatever passage the student has just read.

The Irish papers might not have a word of English on them, even at Foundation Level, but they have plenty of pictures. I supervised the aural for Foundation Irish a couple of years ago, and was amazed at the number of blank faces in front of me while the tape was playing. Many of the questions were of the format : question in Irish, three pictures below the question depicting three different answers. Listen to the tape and tick the box beside the correct picture. Students didn't have to write a word in any language for some questions, just listen to a conversation to answer a question of the type 'Where are Sean and Sile going on Saturday?' And three pictures would show 'cinema', 'swimming', 'zoo' or whatever. Not particularly testing but difficult for those students who hadn't a clue.

Students can't appreciate prose and poetry in another language when they haven't got a good grasp on the language in the first place. At least with JC students who are bored with English prose and poetry can understand it for the most part as it is written in a language in which they are fluent. Not so for those learning poetry and prose through Irish. I came out of leaving cert able to speak french in at least 8 different tenses, in Irish it was just about four. The same four I had learned in primary school.

Not sure what point you're trying to make with the History student. He speaks English, he either has no interest in History, finds it difficult to remember the facts or is simply too lazy to learn. It's not about understanding.

If I went up to my local train station today to ask for a day return ticket to Dublin in Irish I wouldn't be able to. In a roundabout way I'd be able to explain that I wanted a ticket to go to Dublin and that I wanted to return home this evening but not ask directly and simply for the ticket I wanted. I'm able to do this in French and German which is of no use to me in this country!

I'm sure I could come up with plenty of other examples of everyday things I couldn't say in Irish because we didn't learn how to speak on a day to day basis. When people can speak the language maybe then they can appreciate the finer points that prose and poetry can offer.

First of all it should be said that many people would be well able to buy a train ticket in Irish. And many would be better at Irish than French. Not implying anything about yourself but when this topic crops up as it does fairly regularly there are always people who say they cannot speak Irish and/or speak French/German better. It is no harm to record that there is a usually silent group out there for whom the experience is different. The percentage of students who got an A, B or C in Irish was higher than in French in both Honours and Pass so relative standards generally are maybe not how your personal experience suggests. (This is not to suggest that the changing of methods of Irish teaching which is going on at second-level at the moment is not correct and worthwhile).

Also the 13 years learning Irish is neither here nor there really as most students' standards are so poor starting second-level that they are effectively starting from scratch anyway.

The experience of the History student is relevant because it highlights that there are many kids who simply are not very bright. Many of them speak poor English (very restricted vocab, situational inappropriateness etc.) though have 'fluency' only because they speak natively. They will still struggle in an English exam - and it is naive to think they will understand prose and poetry because it is written in English. Meaning and nuance is often utterly lost on most of them while many of the actual words are obscure to them because their language experience is so limited. These type of people rarely get a mention in such discussions as all analysis of language competency/relevance tends to be about/measured by university/college entry.

This feeds into my point about self-selecting Leaving Cert candidates doing the likes of French. That they are not self-selecting by choice is, again, neither here nor there. Let's be honest kids are not exactly overwhelmed by choice in schools and college anyway. But in essence these kids should be reasonably capable academically yet the Leaving Cert results in French, for example, are not really any better than Irish when you allow for the large numbers of weaker kids who will be doing Irish.

Whether colleges should insist on a third language - or even a second one - is another matter, but surely at some stage the students must accept responsibility and tackle subjects in which they might not be automatically comfortable. Surely that is a valid test of application and intelligence which, it seems to me anyway, would be a reasonable test of aptitude for further education. Should the school system be about providing the handiest-points subjects for students and not forcing the poor little pets to kill themselves or should it be about exposing them to different languages, cultures and experiences and eventually differentiating between them in terms of measured ability?

P.S. In fairness to the French exam, having English on it is not necessarily daft, as part of measuring language competency is how one engages with the languages at different levels levels of understanding. (Similarly it is perfectly valid for the Irish exams to use pictures.) Chances are when we go to a foreign country and are reading an unfamiliar language we'll be thinking about it in English anyway. So it is somewhat practical. But it is no harm just to mention here that the French exam includes English as many who talk about levels of language ability tend to ignore/not know abbout this. In the same vein I spoke to a French teacher recently who did not have to speak French at a (successful) teaching interview. I'm sure I'll be bombarded with empirical evidence that this is not a regular experience but that would never happen with Irish.

P.P.S. Don't knock yourself for having limited tenses in Irish compared to French - many languages have limited tenses. In Irish, as in other languages, auxiliary phrases tend to be used to express precise tense. The tenses can be expressed just not always using the verb. It is not a valid comparison at all.