Training program not working. How hard to train?

samsemtex

Hello, I've been doing some training for mountain biking for the last few months. Trying to cycle on the road or on a spinning machine. Now ive been doing a program which includes interval training with 2 mins at 70%, 4 mins 85% +, a 1 hour Aeti ride at, some fartlec training for a two hour spin and a recovery ride at 70%.

Now I know that might not be a perfect system but its roughly what is described in a training book i have. I'm not a really serious rider but i do want to be more competitive among my own friends and club members. I had a race today and i was pretty disgusted that i didnt seem to be any fitter than i was before i started the regime. I'll be honest I dont feel that tired after training sessions and i never cramp during training even though i'm doing what the HR monitor says i should be. Was wrecked on the climbs and cramped badly a few times. What am i doing wrong? Should i be more tired after training and ignore the HR monitor?

High Nellie

Whatever about all the fancy science, one of the best ways to improve is to go out with people / events that are better than you and get your ass kicked.
That will bring you along, so keep at what you are doing ...

Tenzor07

Cramping sounds like you were not properly hydrated and/or didnt stretch/warm up before hand?

Anyhoo, as already mentioned you would have much more benefit from joining a club and trying to keep up with fitter bikers..

mo_bhicycle

samsemtex wrote: »

Was wrecked on the climbs and cramped badly a few times.

How much climbing are you doing in your training?
Do many hill repeat sessions?

billy.fish

High Nellie wrote: »

Whatever about all the fancy science, one of the best ways to improve is to go out with people / events that are better than you and get your ass kicked.
That will bring you along, so keep at what you are doing ...

*facepalm*

Useful response....

Cramping could be many things. Look at what you are eating drinking day to day. Look at your bike position. Look at how you set your gearing.

If you do want a science response i'm sure i could give you one, but my best guess without knowing anything about you is: Day to day diet and hydration.

samsemtex

Well I dont think its my day to day diet. I eat pretty healthy. I never have junk food more than once a week and not even that most of the time and eat porridge for breakfast, chicken, pasta, spuds, veg all that kinda stuff. During the race which took me about 1hr 45 I drank about a litre of water with magnesium soluble tablets disolved in it. I did look at my times there and i was actually a bit better than i thought but im still disappointed.

Is there any point trying to train scientifically without a good base level? Would just pushing it to the max be the best thing? Like i'm only 24 and i'm in good shape weight wise (BMI 23.8) so I would hope I can get quite fit quickly enough with the right training.

samsemtex

mo_bhicycle wrote: »

How much climbing are you doing in your training?
Do many hill repeat sessions?

Not a huge amount to be honest. What are hill repeat sessions?

Maybe it is working a bit. I dont feel that exhausted like i would have before. Felt pretty good at the end as well.

chakattack

I'm no expert but similar to yourself - trying to train scientifically.

You mentioned that you don't really get tired?

My experience is the by the end of a good 3 week block i'm at least fairly tired (and often completely wrecked!) both mentally and physically. I then have an easy week and can feel the improvements going into the next cycle once I've recovered and recharged the batteries.

If I'm not tired at the end of the 3 weeks I know (think) I haven't done enough.

What sort of weekly volume are you doing and at what sort of intensity?

Lumen

samsemtex wrote: »

Hello, I've been doing some training for mountain biking for the last few months. Trying to cycle on the road or on a spinning machine. Now ive been doing a program which includes interval training with 2 mins at 70%, 4 mins 85% +, a 1 hour Aeti ride at, some fartlec training for a two hour spin and a recovery ride at 70%.

I don't what those numbers mean (% of ?) or what Aeti means, but if you're not ever tired after training and you're not getting faster then you're either not training hard enough or you've just got into a rut.

samsemtex

chakattack wrote: »

I'm no expert but similar to yourself - trying to train scientifically.

You mentioned that you don't really get tired?

My experience is the by the end of a good 3 week block i'm at least fairly tired (and often completely wrecked!) both mentally and physically. I then have an easy week and can feel the improvements going into the next cycle once I've recovered and recharged the batteries.

If I'm not tired at the end of the 3 weeks I know (think) I haven't done enough.

What sort of weekly volume are you doing and at what sort of intensity?

I'm trying to do 3 days a week at least and I do weight training in between. My intensities are listed in the OP.

I think I'm just gonna push hard for longer for the next few weeks. Maybe forget about the scientific approach for a while. Good idea or not because i definitely am not seeing the improvements i want to be with the way i'm doing it at the moment.

chakattack

Yeah I'd say trust your instincts and do as much as you feel comfortable with but get plenty of rest after hard training.

If you're doing 3 days a week there's not much point in one of those being a recovery ride.

markdrayton

Joe Friel's book is pretty reasonable. Maybe have a thumb through that in the bookshop?

In general you get faster by getting more training stress. Ride harder or longer. Recover well. If I was you I'd bin short intervals for the moment -- they'll bring you to peak fitness but the extent of that peak is governed by your fitness base. Concentrate on getting some quality time in on the bike, riding at a steady pace (no huffing and puffing but enough to be taxing and require concentration) for 60 or 90 minutes or more a few times a week. Coast as little as possible. Group rides are generally rubbish for this kind of riding so spend some time alone with your thoughts. You don't need to be scientific for this (and HR isn't really scientific because it's influenced by so many external factors) -- you know a solid ride when you do one.

When it's warmer and there's more racing on you can work on the short intervals to sharpen you up.

Chips Lovell

I'm hardly an expert on training plans, but your post is a little unclear as to what exactly you're doing. For example, I googled "Aeti ride" and this thread is the only result.

samsemtex

el tonto wrote: »

I'm hardly an expert on training plans, but your post is a little unclear as to what exactly you're doing. For example, I googled "Aeti ride" and this thread is the only result.

As in AeTi. Anaerobic training intensity. No? Thats how its described in a book I have so i thought it was a common term.

victorcarrera

samsemtex wrote: »

so I would hope I can get quite fit quickly enough with the right training.

I am a roadie but the advice I was given by some of the best is to have patience and improve slowly. I think you should be prepared to give it 3 to 5 years to achieve your potential. How many years experience have those you compare yourself with.
MTB can be very technical too so it may not be just your fitness either. Can you identify where you are loosing ground and are you able to hold on to a more experienced rider in front of you.
After every race you didn't win you should be able to identify why, then work on that aspect.

Chips Lovell

OK. But I'm still no exactly sure as to what you're doing.

Are you saying that your typical training session is 2 hours? That you start with 2 mins at 70 per cent max HR. Then do 4 mins at 85 per cent. Then do one hour of this AeTi, followed by some Fartlek and then spin home at 70 per cent? Or are these incorporated in different spins?

How often do you do this spin? What does the AeTi portion involve? Does it mean you're riding at anaerobic level for 1 hour? What does the Fartlek work consist of?

markdrayton

samsemtex wrote: »

As in AeTi. Anaerobic training intensity. No? Thats how its described in a book I have so i thought it was a common term.

What does this involve? Anaerobic intervals are usually up to around 2 minutes, which is pretty hard going for February. Everything stems from your base aerobic fitness -- raise this as far as possible.

michael196

samsemtex wrote: »

Hello, I've been doing some training for mountain biking for the last few months. Trying to cycle on the road or on a spinning machine. Now ive been doing a program which includes interval training with 2 mins at 70%, 4 mins 85% +, a 1 hour Aeti ride at, some fartlec training for a two hour spin and a recovery ride at 70%.


Now I know that might not be a perfect system but its roughly what is described in a training book i have. I'm not a really serious rider but i do want to be more competitive among my own friends and club members. I had a race today and i was pretty disgusted that i didnt seem to be any fitter than i was before i started the regime.




I'll be honest I dont feel that tired after training sessions and i never cramp during training even though i'm doing what the HR monitor says i should be. Was wrecked on the climbs and cramped badly a few times. What am i doing wrong? Should i be more tired after training and ignore the HR monitor?

Guys, ''detect the sophistical and discard the irrelavent''

so is it mountain biking on the road ? interval training on a mountain bike on the road ?

road bike or mountain bike race ?


but mountain biking single tracking dosnt tire you like road biking. again not sure what bike you are on when u are interval training .

so lets get this part clarified .......

jdt101

samsemtex wrote: »

Hello, I've been doing some training for mountain biking for the last few months. Trying to cycle on the road or on a spinning machine. Now ive been doing a program which includes interval training with 2 mins at 70%, 4 mins 85% +, a 1 hour Aeti ride at, some fartlec training for a two hour spin and a recovery ride at 70%.

Now I know that might not be a perfect system but its roughly what is described in a training book i have. I'm not a really serious rider but i do want to be more competitive among my own friends and club members. I had a race today and i was pretty disgusted that i didnt seem to be any fitter than i was before i started the regime. I'll be honest I dont feel that tired after training sessions and i never cramp during training even though i'm doing what the HR monitor says i should be. Was wrecked on the climbs and cramped badly a few times. What am i doing wrong? Should i be more tired after training and ignore the HR monitor?

Race on Feb 6th?

I didn't think the season started until Feb 27th?

Where was the race?

uberwolf

jdt101 wrote: »

Race on Feb 6th?

I didn't think the season started until Feb 27th?

Where was the race?

prob the biking blitz in ballinastoe

michael196

thats the confusion, is it mtb racing or road racing and is the intervals on mtb on the road ?

samsemtex

Okay, I'll try to clear this up. I am only interested in mountain biking. I only have a mountain bike. I try to do as much on the mountain bike trails as I can but it's not alway practical to get to them as i dont get home from work until 7.30 so I end up going for cycles on the road. Any interval training I have done would have been on the road.

As you can tell I'm quite new to this so sorry if this all seems very jumbled/nonsensical.

niceonetom

samsemtex wrote: »

Okay, I'll try to clear this up. I am only interested in mountain biking. I only have a mountain bike. I try to do as much on the mountain bike trails as I can but it's not alway practical to get to them as i dont get home from work until 7.30 so I end up going for cycles on the road. Any interval training I have done would have been on the road.

As you can tell I'm quite new to this so sorry if this all seems very jumbled/nonsensical.

If you want help you're really going to have to answer, specifically and clearly, the questions you have been asked in this thread.

thebouldwhacker

victorcarrera wrote: »

. I think you should be prepared to give it 3 to 5 years to achieve your potential.

Tbh I think this is your answer. My bike fitness grows every year, last year I noticed a good increase and I reckon I only put up about 5000k total all year.
I just started back road biking this year in the last few days and just nailed a 100k around the Burren in horrible winds with solid climbs with only minimum winter commuting miles done since oct so it was last years training which got me around.
It does take a while to get your cycling fitness established so while you would probably cycle faster and better than your fit non cycling friends it may take more than youth and a few weeks training to keep up with more established cyclists. Remember cycling competitively isnt easy, if it were everyone would be doing it!
My advice, research more than one training scheme and formulate or find one which suits you and ffs relax and enjoy the sport!!!:)

victorcarrera

I can't but maybe some experienced MTB's on here could give him advice on cornering, climbing, jumping, gearing and whatever else they do on the hills.
You could also ask one of your better clubmates to ride along behind you and possibly identify some problems.
It might not be your fitness but as some have already indicated if you are in your first or second year it almost certainly is.

michael196

samsemtex wrote: »

Okay, I'll try to clear this up. I am only interested in mountain biking. I only have a mountain bike. I try to do as much on the mountain bike trails as I can but it's not alway practical to get to them as i dont get home from work until 7.30 so I end up going for cycles on the road. Any interval training I have done would have been on the road.

As you can tell I'm quite new to this so sorry if this all seems very jumbled/nonsensical.

OK, now at least I understand what you are doing. I am open to correction here, but intervals and aeti etc , I dont believe these were ever designed for MTB.

if u think of the origin of MTB, as a seasonal alternative to road biking, whose purpose was to maintain cycling interest and base fitness during the off season.

When i had an MTB only and no road bike, the MTB never developed fitness like a road bike did . Pushing a stubborn machine along a road at 70% versus 85%, i dont believe that will impact ur cycling fitness in the same extent as the same effort /training on road biking. It will make you brutish strong but i dont think it would develop large cardio vascular improvements.

think of it as pushing a juggernaut along a road, does it matter that you are at 70% effort versus 85% effort because it wont make the juggernaut move faster on the road, and the increased effort is lost against the total force required.


so what ? the MTB will develop fitness, but not to the extent road biking will, where 5% more effort produces 5% more power and output.

I would recommend, keep the MTB on the road for training, push as best you can, but dont apply road bike training to the MTB ( intervals etc). Yes push on , hard as you can, but realsie that at best MTB will develop and maintain base fitness, but the intended improvements from road bike interval type training will not materialise from an MTB.

heres the point ::
On a road bike, 5% 10% 15% more effort has an impact on speed, power, output, becase the load / force is balanced against your bodies capability: on an MTB on the road the increased effort is lost against the total force / load applied to the body / cardio vasc.


yes pushing harder on the MTB on the road and you know all about it, it is harder work certainly, but ur heart is at best pushing aganst a force that is overwhelming it in terms of effort, and while speed will increase, cardio vascular fitness may not, as the incremental effort is just lost against the total force.


think of the analogy, those guys who pull trucks along path, can you tell who is at 70% versus 85% ? can you measure the difference it makes to the truck moving ?

overall, keep the MTB on the road, keepin doing what you are doing. I strongly think that getting a road bike, and doing the interval training . cardio trainig on a road bike then switch back to MTB for ur MTB race and then you will see massive improvements....


thats just my opinion, and I am open to correction.....

'68 Fastback

It's been a while since I took my MTB out on a mountain but the last time I did I was reminded of the huge difference between climbing on the road and climbing on the trails.
At the time I was fit from the Wicklow 200 and doing regular 100k spins in the Wicklow hills but I was completely wasted after a 25k spin up and down Three Rock.
My point is, and I'm open to correction, train on the mountain if you want to imrove on the mountain. My road fitness meant nothing once the terrain got rough.
And 1 litre for a 1.45min race seems too little to me.

chakattack

michael196 wrote: »

OK, now at least I understand what you are doing. I am open to correction here, but intervals and aeti etc , I dont believe these were ever designed for MTB.

if u think of the origin of MTB, as a seasonal alternative to road biking, whose purpose was to maintain cycling interest and base fitness during the off season.

When i had an MTB only and no road bike, the MTB never developed fitness like a road bike did . Pushing a stubborn machine along a road at 70% versus 85%, i dont believe that will impact ur cycling fitness in the same extent as the same effort /training on road biking. It will make you brutish strong but i dont think it would develop large cardio vascular improvements.

think of it as pushing a juggernaut along a road, does it matter that you are at 70% effort versus 85% effort because it wont make the juggernaut move faster on the road, and the increased effort is lost against the total force required.


so what ? the MTB will develop fitness, but not to the extent road biking will, where 5% more effort produces 5% more power and output.

I would recommend, keep the MTB on the road for training, push as best you can, but dont apply road bike training to the MTB ( intervals etc). Yes push on , hard as you can, but realsie that at best MTB will develop and maintain base fitness, but the intended improvements from road bike interval type training will not materialise from an MTB.

heres the point ::
On a road bike, 5% 10% 15% more effort has an impact on speed, power, output, becase the load / force is balanced against your bodies capability: on an MTB on the road the increased effort is lost against the total force / load applied to the body / cardio vasc.


yes pushing harder on the MTB on the road and you know all about it, it is harder work certainly, but ur heart is at best pushing aganst a force that is overwhelming it in terms of effort, and while speed will increase, cardio vascular fitness may not, as the incremental effort is just lost against the total force.


think of the analogy, those guys who pull trucks along path, can you tell who is at 70% versus 85% ? can you measure the difference it makes to the truck moving ?

overall, keep the MTB on the road, keepin doing what you are doing. I strongly think that getting a road bike, and doing the interval training . cardio trainig on a road bike then switch back to MTB for ur MTB race and then you will see massive improvements....


thats just my opinion, and I am open to correction.....

I have to disagree with most of what you've said here. Power (or effort) is the same whether you're on a road bike or MTB.

Sure you might go slower and cover less distance because of weight, rolling resistance and a less aero position but your body's response should be very similar.

The only advantage of a road bike for someone training for MTB is comfort for long 3-5 hr spins.

To the OP, I'd say try to improve over the course of a year rather than a month or two. Develop base fitness and then build on that with a focus on what your specific event requires - in your case climbing ability on hills, bike handling skills (and balls of steel) for single track.

High Nellie

victorcarrera wrote: »

I am a roadie but the advice I was given by some of the best is to have patience and improve slowly. I think you should be prepared to give it 3 to 5 years to achieve your potential. How many years experience have those you compare yourself with.
MTB can be very technical too so it may not be just your fitness either. Can you identify where you are loosing ground and are you able to hold on to a more experienced rider in front of you.
After every race you didn't win you should be able to identify why, then work on that aspect.

Ya - I've heard it quoted that after 3 years or 10,000 miles you have a good base for serious competition.

Tenzor07

'68 wrote:

My point is, and I'm open to correction, train on the mountain if you want to imrove on the mountain. My road fitness meant nothing once the terrain got rough.

Your right on that point, I took part in the same race as the OP, and noticed plenty of riders moving away from me on the open fireroads, yet when they got to the singletrack which had some rocks and roots then the speed just slowed right down..and once the trails went downhill I was again being held up behind those who had passed me on the fireroad..

Point here being here OP, is your getting too hung up on Intervals and HR zone type training, mountain biking is a lot more than that, it requires strenght and skill to hold onto your bike down through technical rocky tracks, so join a club, watch other riders lines down hills and through technical singletrack and most importantly have fun!

julio_iglayzis

'68 wrote:

My point is, and I'm open to correction, train on the mountain if you want to imrove on the mountain. My road fitness meant nothing once the terrain got rough.

+1
That's absolutely spot on - you need to focus your training on what you're actually training for....mountain biking. You can build up cardiovascular fitness all you like by slogging along on the road, but it's no subsitute for actually getting out into the mountains.
However, I do realise that this isn't exactly convenient for everyone.

markdrayton

michael196 wrote: »

OK, now at least I understand what you are doing. I am open to correction here, but intervals and aeti etc , I dont believe these were ever designed for MTB.

Interval training is very important for MTB racing. MTB racing is characterised by repeated high-intensity efforts, like climbing short hills or sprinting to get into singletrack ahead of others. Interval training is the best way to target this kind of effort (but don't fall into the trap of thinking this alone will make you faster; you still need your aerobic base).

michael196 wrote: »

On a road bike, 5% 10% 15% more effort has an impact on speed, power, output, becase the load / force is balanced against your bodies capability: on an MTB on the road the increased effort is lost against the total force / load applied to the body / cardio vasc.

This makes no sense. Regardless of what you're riding -- road, MTB, penny farthing -- more power == going faster.

It makes no difference what bike you're on or what surface you're on. Ride it harder/longer and you'll adapt and get fitter.

mtbireland

This is way OTT....not the training but the fact that you're even training specifically at all. The very best thing for you would be to get out and ride with people who are better than you on a Sunday and bust your balls all day trying to ride up the front of the group and doing some other lighter spins during the week. By the sounds of things the thresholds you've set are too low if you're not feeling tired afterwards. I know during our Thursday night cross training crits I could hardly walk up the stairs after an hour of training.... Where are you based? Are you with a club? Worth finding a club that doesn't stop much on their Sunday spins...

samsemtex

Thanks for all the replies. I am with a club, I wont say where as it is surprisingly easy to pinpoint people with little bits of info. I enjoy my web anonymity!

I am pretty handy on the technical stuff, i do a good bit of downhilling so the singletrail is where i make gains. There were a good few times guys who passed me on the fire roads had to pull over to let me past. That said I only make gains at the start of XC rides as I get fatigued after a while. There are definitely some guys in the club who i could go out with who will break my balls with intensity. Its just with my work schedule I cant always make the spins and when i'm off, they arent so I have to do it on my own. The summer and long evenings cant come soon enough.

I know you some of you are saying just have fun, and i do, but I am quite competitive and I hate not being able to at least keep up with guys nearly twice my age. I do like to win or at least be able to hold my own.

I think what i'm gonna do is just get out into the mountains where possible and go as hard as i can realistically go for two hours. Forget the HR and just look at it afterwards. I think I have to get my base level fitness up first before i can be bothering with all the scientific stuff. Thanks.

mtbireland

Well if you're around Dublin or Wicklow you could come out with us... www.team-worc.com You will get a good gauge of where you are and you will get great advice and training tips. Our spins are MTM spins (maintain the momentum) so no hanging around on the top of windy mountains.. Spins every Sunday... PM me if you want to know more.

Tenzor07

samsemtex wrote: »

I am pretty handy on the technical stuff, i do a good bit of downhilling so the singletrail is where i make gains. There were a good few times guys who passed me on the fire roads had to pull over to let me past. That said I only make gains at the start of XC rides as I get fatigued after a while.

There were a lot of slow bikers on the downhill/single track parts of that race, basically because a lot of them may have road/commuter miles in there legs and no actual mountain biking.

Basically to improve your endurance and strength on the bike then some road miles(road bike makes 2/3 hours pedalling more enjoyable) and gym work will definitely help, and if you can keep up with savages like the Worc'eys then you should be winning races

giannip

Keep it simple.

It does not matter what the OP is riding.

You have training levels. Whether you use power, hr or rpe.

Train according to those.

That's it.

12 sprocket

samsemtex wrote: »

That said I only make gains at the start of XC rides as I get fatigued after a while.

I think what i'm gonna do is just get out into the mountains where possible and go as hard as i can realistically go for two hours. Forget the HR and just look at it afterwards. I think I have to get my base level fitness up first before i can be bothering with all the scientific stuff. Thanks.

samtex you have identified what needs fixing yourself and its simply endurance or stamina which you can get by long easy/ medium intensity sessions, or if time is limited use jogging to supplement your training, it doesn't take much time and gives great benefits... you might also check are you starting sessions energy depleted... eat more carbs?