Breeding suckler replacements for sale

cowman

The last few months I have been thinking about changing system from suckler to weanling and young bull beef to breeding an entire herd of commercial maternally strong cows.
In this weeks farmers journal page 24 a better farm participant is toying with the idea...export weanlings is not easy, especially trying to source dams with adequate milk. I know this a problem for alot of beef farmers as buying in the mart can be risky with inbreeding, milk supply etc...
If I was to start a herd with all back breeding on both sides known, wouldnt it be attractive for a farmer to buy these heifers either in calf or as maidens?
Any opinions on this idea, cow types to have, breeds and incalf or maidens?? Thanks:)

reilig

cowman wrote: »

The last few months I have been thinking about changing system from suckler to weanling and young bull beef to breeding an entire herd of commercial maternally strong cows.
In this weeks farmers journal page 24 a better farm participant is toying with the idea...export weanlings is not easy, especially trying to source dams with adequate milk. I know this a problem for alot of beef farmers as buying in the mart can be risky with inbreeding, milk supply etc...
If I was to start a herd with all back breeding on both sides known, wouldnt it be attractive for a farmer to buy these heifers either in calf or as maidens?
Any opinions on this idea, cow types to have, breeds and incalf or maidens?? Thanks:)

Its a good idea but you aren't the first person to have it. Over the last few years around here, we have seen special sales of in calf heifers. The prices have been quite good too. However, I know a number of people who have decided to go down this route last year. So I expect to see a lot more special sales of incalf heifers in the next 12 months. While heifer prices are very high at the moment, if there are a lot of people with heifers to sell then the prices will be lower (supply + demand).

Personally I don't buy breeding heifers. I prefer to breed my own.

blue5000

I think it would be better to sell older cows with a calf at foot. I was at a mart last week where 1oyr old cows were making 1400-1500 with lim calves at foot. I was in shock when one with a brass tag made 980 in calf.


I'd say breed whatever cows you like yourself, mind them well and sell them on with a calf at foot after 4/5 calves. If you try to breed replacement heifers now who knows what sort of cows will be flavour of the month in 3-4 years time? It could be

1. small handy easy to keep AAx or whiteheads,
2. or big charolais/blonde
3. or limxfr
4. or simmenthal that will rear two calves,
5. or culls from the dairy herd that will rear 10 (4,4,2) calves a year
6. or stabiliser hybrids
7. or bbx

I think I've covered all options there, if I've forgotten any please correct me!

Bigbird1

blue5000 wrote: »

I think it would be better to sell older cows with a calf at foot. I was at a mart last week where 1oyr old cows were making 1400-1500 with lim calves at foot. I was in shock when one with a brass tag made 980 in calf.



I'd say breed whatever cows you like yourself, mind them well and sell them on with a calf at foot after 4/5 calves. If you try to breed replacement heifers now who knows what sort of cows will be flavour of the month in 3-4 years time? It could be

1. small handy easy to keep AAx or whiteheads,
2. or big charolais/blonde
3. or limxfr
4. or simmenthal that will rear two calves,
5. or culls from the dairy herd that will rear 10 (4,4,2) calves a year
6. or stabiliser hybrids
7. or bbx

I think I've covered all options there, if I've forgotten any please correct me!

Surely flavour of the month will be whats required,Milk docility,fertility,calving ability and an easily kept cow ect...

Also reilig the man is talkin about breeding replacements for sale,
many people have held sales of quality heifers BUT of unknown breeding/history. Big difference

reilig

Bigbird1 wrote: »

Also reilig the man is talkin about breeding replacements for sale,
many people have held sales of quality heifers BUT of unknown breeding/history. Big difference

How do you supply a reliable breeding history with a cross bred animal??
You'll need years of breeding with strong maternal features to have heifers that show up differently on ICBF

cowman

im thinking of goin for a more compact cow than a charolais, this is because of maintainance cost and milk etc...also reilig i understand wot your sayin about crossbreds not having the backbreeding, but a mart can be totally blind in that regard, i cant understand why there are no replacement sales for animals with a known sire and maternal grand sire.
I know of a man who bought angus heifers at the mart and only by chance he was talking to the seller afterwards and found out the bull he intended using on them was their father! I think maybe contract rearing is the way to go so there is a guarenteed buyer and price, where the buyer decides wot the seller puts in the heifer incalf to...or the buyer can buy as a maiden and calve her down himself

BeeDI

I'm of the opinion that the only way to get good replacements, is to cross a known bull with strong maternal traits with your own milkiest cows. I saw a couple of calved heifers out of limousin UBN bull crossed with char x cows. Super looking cows, with plenty milk. Have a pair of them myself now, for the bull in the next couple of weeks. Just trying to select a lim bull agin to give them, which is strong maternally in the hope of getting at least one heifer. Thinking about PAM, from Dovea.

reilig

BeeDI wrote: »

I'm of the opinion that the only way to get good replacements, is to cross a known bull with strong maternal traits with your own milkiest cows. .

That would be my opinion also. You'll choose the best breeding cows, the ones with the most milk and who year on year produce the best calves for you. You have a very slim chance of getting the qualities of your best cows if you buy in replacements - even if you do know the sire and grand sire.

pakalasa

I was surprised to see on my 5 YEAR TREND report from ICBF/ suckler scheme that most of my cows are pratically all continenental breeding, mainly lim & char. At least on paper anyway. I reckon I have plenty of breeding. The challenge now is to keep milk in the herd. Nearly all the heifers I have coming through as replacements are simmental. I reckon the limousin X simmental, both with top maternal traits is the ideal cow. Maybe it is possible to keep enough milk with all Limousin breeding only, but from what I've seen, it aint easy.
So OP it you do decide to go down this route, you could source pedigree simmentals. I reckon these would be the most attractive as replacements. I reckon, like myself, keeping milk in the herd, is the biggest challenge facing the typical suckler herd.

BeeDI

I know a chap, who gave a shorthorn to a few of his lim cows last year. He reckons from one he has in the herd, milk shoots way up, and the offspring shows much more lim confirmation than shorthorn.

Bizzum

Does anybody find putting a maternally tested bull on an average milker will bring milk into the progeny?
Or do you need to be selecting the milkiest cows?
For example, I have some heifers out of ped Ch heifers by maternal bulls and they milk better than the dams, but then the Ch cows aint the milkiest!

doler62

Hi i knew to this so please bear with me. We run a small scale suckler herd in poor quality land. I was just reading comments there regarding breeding your own replacemnts.....If you do not have the quality back breeding then its a waste of time i found, small stature cows is what we had and replacemnts were small stature! That is why this year two PBNR limousin bulling heifers were bought in and have been bulled recently......I not sayin it will work but something radical had to be done to change weanlings prices for the better!!!

Bodacious

doler62 wrote: »

Hi i knew to this so please bear with me. We run a small scale suckler herd in poor quality land. I was just reading comments there regarding breeding your own replacemnts.....If you do not have the quality back breeding then its a waste of time i found, small stature cows is what we had and replacemnts were small stature! That is why this year two PBNR limousin bulling heifers were bought in and have been bulled recently......I not sayin it will work but something radical had to be done to change weanlings prices for the better!!!

Hi Fella,

What you should be aiming to improve is the euro in the pocket at the end of the year when weanlings are sold and all costings are taken out, bigger more continental type cows = more feed, grass etc. PBNR lim heifers on marginal land may not be the way to go, i also have one this year and i stress she is on trial and she may not be staying... they definitely will be harder fed and more difficult to get back in calf than your smaller stature cows that have already adapted to your ground/plane of nutrition etc

Not knowing the breeds of your cows but what as another poster on here you should pick your most profitable/milky cows and use maternal lim or Sim ai sires on them and take your replacements from them, they will be easier fed and take hardiness from dams. Just IMO:)

doler62

Bodacious wrote: »

Hi Fella,

What you should be aiming to improve is the euro in the pocket at the end of the year when weanlings are sold and all costings are taken out, bigger more continental type cows = more feed, grass etc. PBNR lim heifers on marginal land may not be the way to go, i also have one this year and i stress she is on trial and she may not be staying... they definitely will be harder fed and more difficult to get back in calf than your smaller stature cows that have already adapted to your ground/plane of nutrition etc

Not knowing the breeds of your cows but what as another poster on here you should pick your most profitable/milky cows and use maternal lim or Sim ai sires on them and take your replacements from them, they will be easier fed and take hardiness from dams. Just IMO:)

Hi i agree with what your saying and like you theses heifers are only on trial! We currently have simmental and limousin cows most of which have shorthorn/hereford back breeding. These cows are fine but its only a couple of these, namely the bigger ones which are producing the goods regardless of the breed of sire used on them!
This is why i desided to try something new and take a punt! Hopefully it works but only time will tell!!
ps. where you source your heifer??

Bizzum

doler62 wrote: »

Hi i agree with what your saying and like you theses heifers are only on trial! We currently have simmental and limousin cows most of which have shorthorn/hereford back breeding. These cows are fine but its only a couple of these, namely the bigger ones which are producing the goods regardless of the breed of sire used on them!
This is why i desided to try something new and take a punt! Hopefully it works but only time will tell!!
ps. where you source your heifer??

Why not use maternally tested AI bulls on your better cows, for a few years and breed up this way?

pakalasa

A lot of people make that mistake of thinking that you'll make more money from bigger cows that have bigger better weanlings. When you think about it, 70 cows at 500Kg each should eat the same as 50 cows at 700Kg each, body condition being the same. In fact, the traditional type with good covers of fat and long hair should eat even less again, especially during the winter months.

leg wax

Bizzum wrote: »

Why not use maternally tested AI bulls on your better cows, for a few years and breed up this way?

this is something i dont get and can someone explain and i am not been smart, but if i was to breed my best cows to a breed to get replacements how could i make a liveing, i am doing the compleat opposite and i am not saying i am right but any cow not producing the goods is getting a part bull in hope that she will have a heifer calf and if she has a bull it will hopefully not worth any less as her bad blue calf the genes should be in the heifer to do her work , i bought a cow with a blonde heifer calf at foot 4 years ago,the mother has never had a good blue calf but her daughter has now had 2 u grade calfs ,so on this path i have followed.

Bizzum

In my experience using a maternal bull does not have to be a compromise on the quality of the calf if she has a bull calf.
We have used the BA bull Landais, on some bigger cows, and the SI bull Newry on some smaller ones, giving us some cracking replacements.
The males are turning out good too. Killed a bullock last backend off Newry 470kgs U grade under 30mths.

I do see where you're coming from though, no matter how plain a cow you have, you can always achieve breed improvement.

pakalasa

Legwax,
I know what you are saying. In a way you do have to take a hit, in that the price of the weanling is less, but surely a replacement from your better cows will be better than from your poorer ones....And replacements from these in turn will be even better again.
Replacements do cost a lot to produce and there's no quarantee they'll go in calf. To buy in though, you could bring in disease and you'll have to pay big money for anything nice, with no quarantees of how she'll breed either.
I suppose it can be 50/50 overall.

One of the big pluses, I think from breeding your own, is that you'll have very quiet cows, if they are used to you from birth. To me that is a big thing.

doler62

Bizzum wrote: »

Why not use maternally tested AI bulls on your better cows, for a few years and breed up this way?

Would maternally tested bulls breed good male progeny? Would limousin be the best to use? Bull like epson or highlander?

Bodacious

doler62 wrote: »

Hi i agree with what your saying and like you theses heifers are only on trial! We currently have simmental and limousin cows most of which have shorthorn/hereford back breeding. These cows are fine but its only a couple of these, namely the bigger ones which are producing the goods regardless of the breed of sire used on them!
This is why i desided to try something new and take a punt! Hopefully it works but only time will tell!!
ps. where you source your heifer??

I bought her privately in carlow but have seen a couple of guys round me getting PB lim cattle before and paying big money and flogging them one year on as couldn't feed them and this leads to them being dry or calving at silly time of year.

Your cows sound grand and i would selectively breed replacements from the best of them as Bizzum is saying with proven maternally strong ai sires. You could try more hybrid vigour and use a Parthenais or a maternally strong Ch like that Alex CF 61 on your best milker and see what happens.:) Its all trial and error but keeps things interesting!!

doler62

How do these men that breed weanlings worth 1200 in autumn work it? surely they have a lot of caessarians?? however sayin this i think to be makin money ya need to be producing weanlings in this price bracket??

reilig

doler62 wrote: »

How do these men that breed weanlings worth 1200 in autumn work it? surely they have a lot of caessarians?? however sayin this i think to be makin money ya need to be producing weanlings in this price bracket??

most of these €1200 weinlings will be 11 or months old. For example, a weinling that is sold in October 2011 will have been born in October 2010. By December 2010 he will be eating crunch and by the time he goes to grass in April 2011 he may be 200kg to 250 kg. On grass he may be forward grass fed - ie. he may be able to go ahead of the cows through a creep gate to get the freshest grass. He will also be eating creep meal from the day that he goes out to the day that he is sold. he has to be of a certain quality in order to be able to take the feeding and to grow. He has to be the right colour (a white or yellow chaorlais or a red limousin or a blue BB). For to make €1200 he may have eaten €600 worth of meal. He may have been easily calved but its the feeding that he gets.
So at the end of the day, he may be getting a very high price for the animal but how much money has it taken to get the animal that far and is he making as much profit as the farmer who sells 8 month old weinlings at €800????

To be honest, very few animals will make €1200, but quite a few will be around the €1000 mark. BB's especially. They're bought for export.

Hope that explains it a little bit

Bizzum

doler62 wrote: »

Would maternally tested bulls breed good male progeny? Would limousin be the best to use? Bull like epson or highlander?

I suppose I should gat away from the term 'maternally tested' bull because so many now have such tests, maybe a better way of putting it is to use a bull rated 5* for milk with high reliability. (5* for milk and 5* for the beef traits too if you like!)
Again for me I dont see this as a compromise really, and if it is it's not a huge one.
There are bulls out there that breed good males, and bulls that breed good females, and bulls that breed both. As for which breed, thats a personal choice, and ultimately would depend on what exactly you want from a cow and what type of cows you are breeding off etc, Eg. If you wanted to breed size, more muscle, docility, even colour, all these and more would influence your sire selection.

leg wax

reilig wrote: »

most of these €1200 weinlings will be 11 or months old. For example, a weinling that is sold in October 2011 will have been born in October 2010. By December 2010 he will be eating crunch and by the time he goes to grass in April 2011 he may be 200kg to 250 kg. On grass he may be forward grass fed - ie. he may be able to go ahead of the cows through a creep gate to get the freshest grass. He will also be eating creep meal from the day that he goes out to the day that he is sold. he has to be of a certain quality in order to be able to take the feeding and to grow. He has to be the right colour (a white or yellow chaorlais or a red limousin or a blue BB). For to make €1200 he may have eaten €600 worth of meal. He may have been easily calved but its the feeding that he gets.
So at the end of the day, he may be getting a very high price for the animal but how much money has it taken to get the animal that far and is he making as much profit as the farmer who sells 8 month old weinlings at €800????

To be honest, very few animals will make €1200, but quite a few will be around the €1000 mark. BB's especially. They're bought for export.

Hope that explains it a little bit

i agree that the weanling will be 11-12 months old, yes will be on meal by dec but only 1-2 kgs, goes to grass with cow , forward fed grass ,but is put back on meal befor he is taken off the cow, and will get fed add lib meal to sale date, the longer he is left the more he eats, 90 days is norm for this over this the responce is not good. now by your calculations 600euros of meal is way way out, at 250 a ton the calf to weanling would have to eat 7.27 kilos a day from birth to 330 days old now can you see an animal eating that volume of meal,can you see a farmer[not a show man] feeding 600 euros of meal and selling him for only 1000 euros and staying in business, and this is the same man who is giveing top dollar for replacements it would not add up. last year my wealings ate 100 euros each addlib for 6-8 weeks feeding they got 1-2 kgs in shed for winter workout the cost for yourself.by the way i have given them no meal this year in the shed and its been a big mistake on my behalf but will see come june when i go to mart,they have not grown ibr and no meal my own fault.

BeeDI

leg wax wrote: »

i agree that the weanling will be 11-12 months old, yes will be on meal by dec but only 1-2 kgs, goes to grass with cow , forward fed grass ,but is put back on meal befor he is taken off the cow, and will get fed add lib meal to sale date, the longer he is left the more he eats, 90 days is norm for this over this the responce is not good. now by your calculations 600euros of meal is way way out, at 250 a ton the calf to weanling would have to eat 7.27 kilos a day from birth to 330 days old now can you see an animal eating that volume of meal,can you see a farmer[not a show man] feeding 600 euros of meal and selling him for only 1000 euros and staying in business, and this is the same man who is giveing top dollar for replacements it would not add up. last year my wealings ate 100 euros each addlib for 6-8 weeks feeding they got 1-2 kgs in shed for winter workout the cost for yourself.by the way i have given them no meal this year in the shed and its been a big mistake on my behalf but will see come june when i go to mart,they have not grown ibr and no meal my own fault.

LW, a few questions for you on your system.
1. Is it only the best calves which you consider to be good export standard. which get the ad lib meal for the last 90 days before sale? What do you do with calves which wouldn't make the top grade if you have any of those? Ad lib meal or not???

2. What do you do with the heifers? Do you ad lib in the last couple of months also?

leg wax

BeeDI wrote: »

LW, a few questions for you on your system.
1. Is it only the best calves which you consider to be good export standard. which get the ad lib meal for the last 90 days before sale? What do you do with calves which wouldn't make the top grade if you have any of those? Ad lib meal or not???

2. What do you do with the heifers? Do you ad lib in the last couple of months also?

yes only weanlings that have a ass get fed addlib, if the shape is not there at the start all the meal in red mills will not put it there. all the weanlings that are not fit for export male or female are kept till they are around 500kgs and sold, i have kept heifers not fit for export and killed them in the factory at 630kgs live weight and only got 1007 euros average and this system does not pay me because i only own 35 acres and rent the rest and for me to keep animals for longer than 18 months i would have to rent more ground,breeding animals and feeding animals for the irish market place would not pay me.all heifers that are fit for export are fed adlib,the bb heifer that is fit for export will not put on fat around the tail head when on ad lib,but the one thats not fit will.

doler62

Is there any type of breed of cow that we all can agree would breed the best weanling type? Also is it very difficult to get CF52 staws....would like to breed off him if possible!!

vanderbadger

doler62 wrote: »

Is there any type of breed of cow that we all can agree would breed the best weanling type? Also is it very difficult to get CF52 staws....would like to breed off him if possible!!

i thought the famous cf52 was no longer held in such high regard, cf52 cows not desirable anymore according to alot of breeders anyway especially the pedigree guys

doler62

vanderbadger wrote: »

i thought the famous cf52 was no longer held in such high regard, cf52 cows not desirable anymore according to alot of breeders anyway especially the pedigree guys

I still would like ta breed from him as all the best weanlings I ever had were off him and he is not that hard calved!! Whats the big bull now so??

vanderbadger

doler62 wrote: »

I still would like ta breed from him as all the best weanlings I ever had were off him and he is not that hard calved!! Whats the big bull now so??

dunno really there are so many big names, we had a 52 bull for a good few years and i have a good few of his daughters kept on and they are good cows, i also have a nice purebred heifer from 52, she is only a year and a bit but i will keep her on and see how she goes

bogman_bass

doler62 wrote: »

I still would like ta breed from him as all the best weanlings I ever had were off him and he is not that hard calved!! Whats the big bull now so??

you can get straws but you would be talking about 50 yo-yos a straw

pakalasa

Reilig,
€600 for meal to weanlings. That's about 2,400 Kg. I reckon mine ate about 60Kg each last year and sold at about 7~8 months.

Tora Bora

pakalasa wrote: »

Reilig,
€600 for meal to weanlings. That's about 2,400 Kg. I reckon mine ate about 60Kg each last year and sold at about 7~8 months.

How much meal did you feed to the crows.:cool::cool:
I had a few if the bstrads, bigger than my best weanling!

leg wax

pakalasa wrote: »

Reilig,
€600 for meal to weanlings. That's about 2,400 Kg. I reckon mine ate about 60Kg each last year and sold at about 7~8 months.

no reply ;)

leg wax

reilig wrote: »

most of these €1200 weinlings will be 11 or months old. For example, a weinling that is sold in October 2011 will have been born in October 2010. By December 2010 he will be eating crunch and by the time he goes to grass in April 2011 he may be 200kg to 250 kg. On grass he may be forward grass fed - ie. he may be able to go ahead of the cows through a creep gate to get the freshest grass. He will also be eating creep meal from the day that he goes out to the day that he is sold. he has to be of a certain quality in order to be able to take the feeding and to grow. He has to be the right colour (a white or yellow chaorlais or a red limousin or a blue BB). For to make €1200 he may have eaten €600 worth of meal. He may have been easily calved but its the feeding that he gets.
So at the end of the day, he may be getting a very high price for the animal but how much money has it taken to get the animal that far and is he making as much profit as the farmer who sells 8 month old weinlings at €800????

To be honest, very few animals will make €1200, but quite a few will be around the €1000 mark. BB's especially. They're bought for export.

Hope that explains it a little bit

ok sorry for bringing this up again ireland lost ,wine and take away in me, reilig you come on here with figures for meal and you dont support them with any back up its like your ah forget it feck, i will put the bird flaps on and get 700 euros worth of meal into the this year,sorry to everyone only stirring it. legs:D

Bizzum

leg wax wrote: »

ok sorry for bringing this up again ireland lost ,wine and take away in me, reilig you come on here with figures for meal and you dont support them with any back up its like your ah forget it feck, i will put the bird flaps on and get 700 euros worth of meal into the this year,sorry to everyone only stirring it. legs:D

A bottle of Buckfast, a bag of chips and a battered sausage.........?
Enough to make any man question the merits/demerits of creep feeding!;)