Turbo Trainer and Lactic Acid

Zorba

So i've been doing some training on the turbo when i can't get out on the road.

Usually it's a 45 min session (can't bear any longer) which consists of 10 mins warm up followed by 2mins @ 85% of my heart rate max plus 30 sec sprints followed by 2 mins @ 85 % and 30 sec sprint and so on.

Problem is when i try to do the sprints i can only get my heart rate up to around 172 (max heart rate is 182) then the lactic acid starts building up and i literally can't go any harder. I've tried spinning a lower gear and it's the same lactic acid build up, also tried going easier on the 2 mins part and going hard for 1 min and try to build up the heart rate but once i get around 170 ish heart rate the legs just give up. Whereas on the road i can easily get my heart rate up to 180+ without lactic acid build up.

Only reason i'm asking is cos i want my turbo sessions to improve my vo2 max too not just to keep the legs moving when i can't get out on the road.

Any help appreciated.

xz

I'm absolutely no expert here, but the fact that you are indoors might be a factor here, its a lot warmer indoors on a trainer, you heat up alot more, hence more sweat, and you dont have a breeze to help with cooling you down. Your body will be working harder to try and cool itself,hence you will tire quicker. I bet most people here would find a turbo session harder (and more boring) than actually getting out on the road.
The fact that the bike is static, and not moving naturally under harder efforts may be a factor too. These are just my opinions and have no figures or facts to back them up.

Morrisseeee

I'm absolutely no expert here

Me either, but........is it down to aerodynamics ?? ie. when you're on the turbo it's just you turning the cranks (at a certain resistance) but when out on the road it's you & the bike against the air/wind, I'm guessing this requires more effort and hense heart rate goes up.
/.....waits patiently for some pro to give us some expert analysis

GTDolanator

Morrisseeee wrote: »

Me either, but........is it down to aerodynamics ?? ie. when you're on the turbo it's just you turning the cranks (at a certain resistance) but when out on the road it's you & the bike against the air/wind, I'm guessing this requires more effort and hense heart rate goes up.
/.....waits patiently for some pro to give us some expert analysis

bingo.therfore turbo's are for bitches,get out on yer bike!

markdrayton

Cooling, inertia and how used to the turbo you are are the main things that make indoor training feel harder than riding on the road. More at:

http://alex-cycle.blogspot.com/2009/01/turbocharged-training.html

Big fans (http://www.argos.ie/ProductDisplayTRK019?partNumber=4250090) really help.

mloc123

How have you tested LTHR on the bike? What are you basing the HR for the HR for this sessionon?

Zorba

xz wrote: »

I'm absolutely no expert here, but the fact that you are indoors might be a factor here, its a lot warmer indoors on a trainer, you heat up alot more, hence more sweat, and you dont have a breeze to help with cooling you down. Your body will be working harder to try and cool itself,hence you will tire quicker. I bet most people here would find a turbo session harder (and more boring) than actually getting out on the road.
The fact that the bike is static, and not moving naturally under harder efforts may be a factor too. These are just my opinions and have no figures or facts to back them up.

Never actually thought cooling could be the thing, the turbo is set up in the shed with the door open, no matter how cold it is outside it's still a very sweaty affair.

Morrisseeee wrote: »

Me either, but........is it down to aerodynamics ?? ie. when you're on the turbo it's just you turning the cranks (at a certain resistance) but when out on the road it's you & the bike against the air/wind, I'm guessing this requires more effort and hense heart rate goes up.
/.....waits patiently for some pro to give us some expert analysis

Could have a point here but surely the lactic acid should build up quicker when your out on the road if this is the case ?

markdrayton wrote: »

Cooling, inertia and how used to the turbo you are are the main things that make indoor training feel harder than riding on the road. More at:

http://alex-cycle.blogspot.com/2009/01/turbocharged-training.html

Big fans (http://www.argos.ie/ProductDisplayTRK019?partNumber=4250090) really help.

Thanks for the link will have a read of the blog later, think a fan could be the way to go and putting electricity into the shed to run it.

mloc123 wrote: »

How have you tested LTHR on the bike? What are you basing the HR for the HR for this sessionon?

I have a Polar cs400 computer i used to get the max hr, also use it on the turbo trainer. I know it's not perfect but i'd imagine it's reasonably more accurate than the 220 minus your age formula.

Lumen

You don't need to go near your max HR to get faster using the turbo.

Which levels are you targetting and why?

markdrayton

Lumen's steering the us in the right direction :~) If you just want to get fitter then use the turbo for sessions at or around your threshold (the pace you can sustain for an hour, usually just before you gasping instead of just breathing deeply). The classic bread-and-butter session is 2x20 minute intervals with a 5 minute break in between. Ride more or less as hard as you can sustain *for both intervals*. It's much less effective when you blast the first and limp/bail the second one. It sounds boring but it's not so bad: get some music on and put out what you can for the duration. You should be able to complete the first one with a bit left over then start to worry you might not finish during the second one. Variations on the theme include 2x30, 3x20, 1x60, etc. It's generally accepted that the intervals should be > 10 minutes.

These are a bit tricky to pace with HR as it tends to rise as the workout continues, even if your power output is constant or even declines. It might be better to pace them by feel at first -- it should be hard but you won't finish it if you're a gasping, wobbly-legged wreck after 3 minutes.

Your workout sounds reasonable as long as you're going hard between the sprints and doing it for > 30 mins or so. If you're sprinting then coasting along for 30 seconds as you watch your HR fall back to 85% you won't get as much out of it.

Have a google about for 2x20 -- there's tonnes of info out there.

mloc123

% of max HR is junk. Do a 30 LTHR test....

30 minutes as hard as you can evenly paced, take your avg HR for the last 20mins as your LTHR and go from there.

Ryder

For what its worth, I find HR useless on the turbo. With cardiac lag and drift I dont think your actual HR is representative of your work. Better off using Rate of Perceived Exertion instead and using HR as an additional guide

cantalach

Ryder wrote: »

For what its worth, I find HR useless on the turbo. With cardiac lag and drift I dont think your actual HR is representative of your work.

For shorter intervals, I'd agree that HR is not very useful and that in the absence of a power reading, PE-out-of-10 is the way to go. However, if you are doing longer intervals, such as the 2 x 20mins session described above, HR works well. It stops you going too far into the red (running the risk of a bail) or going too easy (and not getting the desired adaptation).

Zorba

markdrayton wrote: »

Lumen's steering the us in the right direction :~) If you just want to get fitter then use the turbo for sessions at or around your threshold (the pace you can sustain for an hour, usually just before you gasping instead of just breathing deeply). The classic bread-and-butter session is 2x20 minute intervals with a 5 minute break in between. Ride more or less as hard as you can sustain *for both intervals*. It's much less effective when you blast the first and limp/bail the second one. It sounds boring but it's not so bad: get some music on and put out what you can for the duration. You should be able to complete the first one with a bit left over then start to worry you might not finish during the second one. Variations on the theme include 2x30, 3x20, 1x60, etc. It's generally accepted that the intervals should be > 10 minutes.

These are a bit tricky to pace with HR as it tends to rise as the workout continues, even if your power output is constant or even declines. It might be better to pace them by feel at first -- it should be hard but you won't finish it if you're a gasping, wobbly-legged wreck after 3 minutes.

Your workout sounds reasonable as long as you're going hard between the sprints and doing it for > 30 mins or so. If you're sprinting then coasting along for 30 seconds as you watch your HR fall back to 85% you won't get as much out of it.

Have a google about for 2x20 -- there's tonnes of info out there.

Hmmm well what i was doing was 20 mins sessions with 30 sec sprints every 2 mins i was keeping my heart rate around 85 -90 % of my max during these sessions and trying to push it up to 100 % during the sprints but can only get to around 93 % cos of lactic acid, thought the 30 sec sprints would help make the sessions harder and thus improve my fitness ?

Lumen wrote: »

You don't need to go near your max HR to get faster using the turbo.

Which levels are you targetting and why?

Well i'm trying to max out my heart rate for the 30 sec sprints the thinking behind it is to improve vo2, what would u suggest ?

Basically i want the work i do on the turbo to help me on the road don't want to just waste 45 mins on the turbo when i can't get out on the road if u know what i mean ?