how to vote?

newby.204 · 05-02-2011 1:56am #1

this is in relation to choices. I am in kildare south, i do not wish to give any indepedent td or ff or sf td a vote? during a chat in work we got into how to fill in the voting slip, can i just mark 1 fg and 2 labour and leave it at that, i.e. do i have to mark all the slots?

Thoie · 05-02-2011 2:02am

You don't have to fill all the slots - you can leave it at 1, or 1 and 2, etc. However many you feel like.

A question that came up in the pub that we couldn't answer today is what happens if you fill in your preferences as, say, just 1 and 3. Is your vote spoiled? Is the "3" counted as a second preference?

Permabear · 05-02-2011 2:03am

This post has been deleted.

mikemac · 05-02-2011 2:04am

Thoie wrote: »

A question that came up in the pub that we couldn't answer today is what happens if you fill in your preferences as, say, just 1 and 3. Is your vote spoiled? Is the "3" counted as a second preference?

That is an excellent question.

I too would like to get an answer on that

smokiebeverage · 05-02-2011 2:04am

It's fairly simple you only have to mark as many as you want in your preference. You do not have to mark them all, just mark them 1,2,... in your order of preference. If you are only giving a first preference you can mark a single x for the candidate

smokiebeverage · 05-02-2011 2:07am

Thoie wrote: »

You don't have to fill all the slots - you can leave it at 1, or 1 and 2, etc. However many you feel like.

A question that came up in the pub that we couldn't answer today is what happens if you fill in your preferences as, say, just 1 and 3. Is your vote spoiled? Is the "3" counted as a second preference?

Yep that is a spoiled vote as it shows no indication of a second preference but does show a third

smokiebeverage · 05-02-2011 2:09am

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

Your vote will only be counted once! Your second, third prefs etc are only used if your first preference is eliminated. What will happen if you only place one candidate and they are eliminated is that you will have no counted vote at that point in the counting process

newby.204 · 05-02-2011 2:11am

thanks lads/ladies its just someone said your vote was spoiled if you didnt fill in all the slots. What would be the downside of just marking first and second preference, I dont want to vote for people I dont think are deserving of my vote/people whos policies i do not agree with. I also dont want to vote for idependants as IMO, quite a cynical one mind, they are in it merely for the money, peddle parish politics and are of no overall use in the political system except to those in power who need an extra vote or 2

mgmt · 05-02-2011 2:13am

Practice on http://www.boards.ie/vote/

It is just like the real thing

smokiebeverage · 05-02-2011 2:16am

The only downside is if those choices are eliminated, but that's not a downside really, if you don't won't to vote for someone you wouldn't want them to have your vote anyway. Vote as many or a little as you like, I'll be voting two myself, but I can even see why you would not mark any. This wouldn't be a spoiled vote as such but it gets the message across that you don't want any of them and as your ballot counts it raises the quota required to get elected and refunded

johnmcdnl · 05-02-2011 2:49am

smokiebeverage wrote: »

Yep that is a spoiled vote as it shows no indication of a second preference but does show a third

does your first vote count though and then it's spoiled or is it automatically spoiled when it was filled incorrectly

smokiebeverage · 05-02-2011 3:12am

No even though it would be a genuine mistake it is still classed as spoiled, and as such it is discarded straight away and it counts in no way. You have to be careful even if your writing is classed as illegible but readable it may be passed over as spoiled. The general rule is any other marks than the preference votes on the defined boxes and it's a spoiled vote. So don't write anywhere outside of the preference boxes and use clearly defined numbers in the boxes. If you are unable to write, which a remarkable amount of people are, you may mark a single x for one candidate only.

marco_polo · 05-02-2011 3:20am

smokiebeverage wrote: »

Yep that is a spoiled vote as it shows no indication of a second preference but does show a third

Interesting I didn't know that, I think as a protest vote I am going to put a preference number beside all the of the candidates on the ballot and skip a random number somewhere in the middle of the sequence.*

* I'm not really

smokiebeverage · 05-02-2011 3:33am

To be honest if you did it far enough down I doubt anyone would notice!!

On an unrelated note I'd like to point out I have very little interest in politics, but I do love a good vote count no matter what country or system they use. I've just read my own replys and even I think im a dork now! But roll on the count that's gonna be a late night!!

johnmcdnl · 05-02-2011 3:37am

smokiebeverage wrote: »

To be honest if you did it far enough down I doubt anyone would notice!!

On an unrelated note I'd like to point out I have very little interest in politics, but I do love a good vote count no matter what country or system they use. I've just read my own replys and even I think im a dork now! But roll on the count that's gonna be a late night!!

and when it's coming down to the last couple of seats 2-3 days later :cool: hopefully this year it'll be down to the wire as it well could be this year... each one of those FFers that falls at the last count is going to be so fun to watch :pac:

mccoist · 05-02-2011 7:51am

thank you for posting this message and clearing up the fact that votes only counted once. I wish there was a campaign to make sure people realised how our system works.
FF are blatingly targeting the third fourth and fifth seats in various wards and they will get a large number of tranfers if people feel they have to fill all the boxes.
This is a very important election in how we go foward after the last decade.
We need to end various practices in our political system.
Politicians getting elected by default is one of them.

sceptre · 05-02-2011 11:58am

johnmcdnl wrote: »

does your first vote count though and then it's spoiled or is it automatically spoiled when it was filled incorrectly

As far as I know, it would count as a first preference as it indicates a clear preference for the candidate with "1" marked next to their name. That's where the line is drawn at the count centre. It wouldn't be transferable as it doesn't indicate a clear second preference.

Chucky the tree · 05-02-2011 12:08pm

If you make a mistake on the voting slip in the booth can you go back and get another to fill in once you return the 1st voting slip?

Dinner · 05-02-2011 12:18pm

Chucky the tree wrote: »

If you make a mistake on the voting slip in the booth can you go back and get another to fill in once you return the 1st voting slip?

Yeah you can. The poll clerk just has to take note that there was a mistake on the back of the stub for that voting slip and then they'll give you a new one.

smokiebeverage · 05-02-2011 1:39pm

sceptre wrote: »

As far as I know, it would count as a first preference as it indicates a clear preference for the candidate with "1" marked next to their name. That's where the line is drawn at the count centre. It wouldn't be transferable as it doesn't indicate a clear second preference.

I think sceptre is right that seems to be what happens in practice, the transfers stop once they dont have a clear next step. Technically speaking the rule for proportional rep would consider it a spoilt vote but practice could be completly different, this of course where the recount arguments come in!

Respublica · 05-02-2011 5:06pm

What would be the downside of just marking first and second preference,

The downside is that your vote might be wasted.

If, as looks likely, the FG and Labour candidates have more than enough votes to be elected, then your vote could be transferred to decide who wins the third seat. If this happens then because you are only using two preferences you would effectively be opting-out when it comes to the third seat, and allowing other voters to chose for you who takes it.

You might not like FF, SF or the independents but there are real differences between them so I think it is rational to have your say in which of them is elected.

In my view if you vote, say (3) Independent, (4) FF, then you're not saying that you like or approve of the independent, just that you prefer them to FF (and that you prefer FF to No. 5). There's nothing wrong with having an order of preference among several unappealing options.

I dont want to vote for people I dont think are deserving of my vote/people whos policies i do not agree with.

I understand where you're coming from but personally I think it's the wrong way to think about an election. Voting isn't a mere form of self-expression or an opinion poll: a way of declaring to the world which candidates you like or approve of and which ones you can't stand. It's a mechanism for choosing who governs the country, which is much more important than that.

Thoie · 05-02-2011 5:11pm

Here's another unlikely scenario. A particular constituency has 4 seats. There's 10 people on the ballot. Every single voter (without fail) in that constituency only votes #1 and #2 - no-one marks further down the sheet. All the #1 and #2 votes go to Mr X and Mrs Y. There are no transfers to anyone else, and those two get their seats. What happens the other two seats?

Respublica · 05-02-2011 5:32pm

Thoie,

I think that would count as a tie, and be resolved by a coin toss. (Or several coin tosses if necessary).

But you would have to look at exactly how the rules are worded.

smokiebeverage · 05-02-2011 7:04pm

Thoie wrote: »

Here's another unlikely scenario. A particular constituency has 4 seats. There's 10 people on the ballot. Every single voter (without fail) in that constituency only votes #1 and #2 - no-one marks further down the sheet. All the #1 and #2 votes go to Mr X and Mrs Y. There are no transfers to anyone else, and those two get their seats. What happens the other two seats?

This situation is exactly why you should only choose people you want to represent you. I disagree with Respublica on the wasted vote if you don't fall into the surplus, your vote has already been counted. If the above happened (which we know is very very unlikely) it is because nobody wants the rest of the candidates to represent them. In this case the seats remain unfilled and a by-election would need to be called for the remaining seats and I would assume new candidates would run.

Respublica · 05-02-2011 8:09pm

I disagree with Respublica on the wasted vote if you don't fall into the surplus, your vote has already been counted.

I'm not sure I understand your point.

If he votes for FG or Labour in that constituency then there is a good chance that his vote will be included in the surplus of one of those candidates. If that happens, then his vote will be wasted. Why allow that to happen?

Respublica · 05-02-2011 8:38pm

If the above happened ...the seats remain unfilled and a by-election would need to be called for the remaining seats

Can you tell me if you have actual reason to believe this, or are you just guessing?

The procedure states that if all surpluses have been transferred and there are still seats to be filled then the candidate with fewest votes is eliminated. So if one candidate has zero votes they are eliminated and the count continues.

If there is a tie among candidates with the least votes then the eliminated candidate is determined by lot. So if more than one of the remaining candidates has zero votes then the candidate to be excluded would be chosen at random.

In the scenario given 8 candidates would be tied for elimination on zero votes. The returning officer would eliminate them by lot, one-by-one, until two were left. The last two would be automatically elected.

This is my reading of the rules anyway. The place to look seems to be the Electoral Act 1992. I would need some evidence to convince me that there would need to be a by-election.

smokiebeverage · 05-02-2011 8:46pm

Im basing it on the fact that in the situation given there are four seats and if all but two had zero votes only two could be elected leaving two seats unfilled, requiring another election to fill the other two seats. Or I could be missing something? But lets be honest it wouldn't happen like that anyway, its a bit of a mute point. I think the real difference is should you place votes for people you don't want to represent you, we have different views on this but both are as valid as each other. I can see where you are coming from, using the lower preferences to eliminate those more repugnant to the voter.

You've gotta love PR, no other system gives so many ways to vote.

Respublica · 05-02-2011 9:24pm

I think that (counterintuitive as it may be) you could actually be elected with zero votes. But I'm open to correction on that. And it is kind of irrelevant in a large national election.

You've gotta love PR, no other system gives so many ways to vote.

Very entertaining system alright.

If you like that sort of thing

deanh · 05-02-2011 9:34pm

Thoie wrote: »

You don't have to fill all the slots - you can leave it at 1, or 1 and 2, etc. However many you feel like.

A question that came up in the pub that we couldn't answer today is what happens if you fill in your preferences as, say, just 1 and 3. Is your vote spoiled? Is the "3" counted as a second preference?

The short answer is that it could be considered spoilt. However, the rule is that as long as intended preference is clear it will count, subject to a decision of the presiding officer at the count. Those votes are debated over by the parties trying to get an advantage by excluding votes that go against them

how to vote?

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