Long Slow Run

Mac Cormaic

What pace should I run a 'Long Slow Run' in proportion to the time I want to run in a marathon? Is there any scale/percentage recommended?

Also how tired should the muscles be, in relative terms of how good a workout the Long Slow Run was?

Wozzaah

I use the McMillan calculator, hope it helps

http://www.mcmillanrunning.com/mcmillanrunningcalculator.htm

robinph

I think McMillan gives me between 45 seconds and a minute slower than Marathon pace, but I may have been reading the wrong line.

Mac Cormaic

Wozzaah wrote: »

I use the McMillan calculator, hope it helps

http://www.mcmillanrunning.com/mcmillanrunningcalculator.htm

Thank you. Thats a great help.

The reason I ask is I was reading an article on the net, which suggested that too many LSR's could get a person in a bad habit of running slow. It was suggesting that a few miles of every LSR should be at marathon/tempo pace to get the best workout.

ger664

Mac

I ran my first marathon (dublin) where I ran most of my LSR @ marathon pace 3:58:50

I ran my next marathon (athens uphill and a lot hotter) and the only change I made was to run all my LSR include hills and ran them @ 10+min/mile 3:51:25

So yeah a slow long run gives you the bad habit of running slower !!

RayCun

Mac Cormaic wrote: »

The reason I ask is I was reading an article on the net, which suggested that too many LSR's could get a person in a bad habit of running slow. It was suggesting that a few miles of every LSR should be at marathon/tempo pace to get the best workout.

Some marathon plans - eg. Pfitziger & Douglas - do include marathon pace miles during the long run. But even plans that don't will usually have some marathon pace runs on other days of the week, and I don't see why those runs wouldn't count as habit-forming.

tunguska

Mac Cormaic wrote: »

What pace should I run a 'Long Slow Run' in proportion to the time I want to run in a marathon? Is there any scale/percentage recommended?

Also how tired should the muscles be, in relative terms of how good a workout the Long Slow Run was?

It depends. With Daniels marathon plan he suggests a long run every week at Easy pace(Easy pace does not correspond to ridiculous slow pace though). However there are two other runs that week that are fairly long that include marathon pace and Threshold pace segments in them.
I mean you could go the other way and do your long run on sunday, maybe 20 miles, with 5 easy pace, 10 marathon pace, 5 easy pace. Personally I prefer Damiels' approach leaving the long run on a sunday as a run done entirely at the same pace(E-pace), maybe making it 24 - 26miles in length. Like I said though, Easy pace isnt ridiculously slow pace. For me Easy pace is my run for fun pace, thats the pace I would run at if I was just going out for a run without having a watch with me, running just for the joy of it. Not allowing the watch to slow me down or whatever. I think people can get too caught up with macmillian/Garmin dictating what pace they should run at. Going extra slow just because macmillian says you should isnt the best approach, in my opinion anyway. The lads back in the day didnt have garmins or race pace calculators, they just ran their easy runs at a comfortable pace and their hard runs at a hard pace. I've gotten caught up in myself. The other night for example I went training with a group of lads and we were doing 1 minute hard 1 minute easy. I was trying to calculate my "hard" pace based on tables while the other lads just tore off. I was all confused, wondering if I was going at the correct pace or not. But in the end I just said feck it and tried to hang onto them as best I could (for dear life).
Going slightly off topic here I know, but the bottom line I think is, just run you're easy runs at your run for fun pace, dont try to overly censor how fast youre going.

Running for fun huh? I have vague memories of such things..........

shels4ever

I would say that early in your training cycle slower paces runs are the way to go , if your on a building stage and jsut getting the miles up 1m/m slower then target paces would be fine.

But in the second half of your plan some marathon paces mile are a must over the long runs, fast finish long runs and super fast finish shorter runs can put that speed back into the legs.

Mac Cormaic

tunguska wrote: »

It depends. With Daniels marathon plan he suggests a long run every week at Easy pace(Easy pace does not correspond to ridiculous slow pace though). However there are two other runs that week that are fairly long that include marathon pace and Threshold pace segments in them.
I mean you could go the other way and do your long run on sunday, maybe 20 miles, with 5 easy pace, 10 marathon pace, 5 easy pace. Personally I prefer Damiels' approach leaving the long run on a sunday as a run done entirely at the same pace(E-pace), maybe making it 24 - 26miles in length. Like I said though, Easy pace isnt ridiculously slow pace. For me Easy pace is my run for fun pace, thats the pace I would run at if I was just going out for a run without having a watch with me, running just for the joy of it. Not allowing the watch to slow me down or whatever. I think people can get too caught up with macmillian/Garmin dictating what pace they should run at. Going extra slow just because macmillian says you should isnt the best approach, in my opinion anyway. The lads back in the day didnt have garmins or race pace calculators, they just ran their easy runs at a comfortable pace and their hard runs at a hard pace. I've gotten caught up in myself. The other night for example I went training with a group of lads and we were doing 1 minute hard 1 minute easy. I was trying to calculate my "hard" pace based on tables while the other lads just tore off. I was all confused, wondering if I was going at the correct pace or not. But in the end I just said feck it and tried to hang onto them as best I could (for dear life).
Going slightly off topic here I know, but the bottom line I think is, just run you're easy runs at your run for fun pace, dont try to overly censor how fast youre going.

Running for fun huh? I have vague memories of such things..........

Would easy-pace correspond with having the energy to jog a few miles the day after a LSR. For example last weekend I ran 18 miles at an easy pace of 9.30. The following day I ran 6 miles easy at around 8.30. My legs weren't tired as such and I had no real muscle pains. I suppose what I'm asking is should I be pushing myself that bit more, so I feel like I had a good workout, and the following day's run would feel like a proper recovery run.

TFBubendorfer

Mac Cormaic wrote: »

Would easy-pace correspond with having the energy to jog a few miles the day after a LSR.

You should ALWAYS have the energy to run a few miles the next day, even after a very hard training run.

Mr Slow

Mac Cormaic wrote: »

I suppose what I'm asking is should I be pushing myself that bit more, so I feel like I had a good workout, and the following day's run would feel like a proper recovery run.

Pfitziger & Douglas say your LSR's should be 20% slower than planned marathon pace, they include only 3 or 4 marathon paced runs within the 55 mile week schedule. The purpose of these runs is to encourage your body to store more glycogen and make the transition more fluidly from glycogen to fat in the race.

Pushing yourself too hard will end up with you being exhausted and suffering from overtraining. Post LSR runs should be really easy, their purpose is simply to aid active recovery by flushing out toxins and feeding sore muscles with oxygenated blood.

Also as you progress through training don't make the fatal mistake of thinking that the speed you can run your 8 - 10 mile paced run 4 weeks before the race is now your marathon pace, it sounds obvious but many have come a cropper on this error.

dna_leri

Good blog about the different types of long run:

Let's look at the two types of long runs. A descriptive name for the first type of long run is the "on your feet" long run. Pace really does not matter with this long run just the total number of foot falls.

The second type of long run focuses on the ability to maintain a steady state, the ability to deal with rising core temperatures, low fuel, fluid imbalance, and getting use to the sensations that come from these imbalances. In general this run is at least 90 minutes long and run at 90% or faster than marathon pace.

Seres

i would always do a long slow run at 'conversation pace ' , sure time on your feet is the object of the LSR anyway ?! , as long as your not going ridiculously slow , which will obviously be dependent on your own standard

opus

mrslow wrote: »

Pfitziger & Douglas say your LSR's should be 20% slower than planned marathon pace, they include only 3 or 4 marathon paced runs within the 55 mile week schedule. The purpose of these runs is to encourage your body to store more glycogen and make the transition more fluidly from glycogen to fat in the race.

Did P&D also suggest starting the LSR at the slower end of the scale & then speeding up gradually? Only borrowed the book from someone at work to take a copy of the training schedule but through I saw that mentioned in there. My LSR this week is 27km which I was planning to run the first 9km at MP+20%, the second 9km at MP+15% and finish off at MP+10%.

Mr Slow

opus wrote: »

Did P&D also suggest starting the LSR at the slower end of the scale & then speeding up gradually? Only borrowed the book from someone at work to take a copy of the training schedule but through I saw that mentioned in there. My LSR this week is 27km which I was planning to run the first 9km at MP+20%, the second 9km at MP+15% and finish off at MP+10%.

They vary through the course but the basic long paced run is +20% finishing with +10%, The hardest run if memory serves is 18 miles (4 miles +20% plus 14 @ pace), I hope this helps.

opus

mrslow wrote: »

They vary through the course but the basic long paced run is +20% finishing with +10%, The hardest run if memory serves is 18 miles (4 miles +20% plus 14 @ pace), I hope this helps.

Perfect thanks a lot! Just wanted to confirm I didn't imagine reading it. Think the longest stretch of MP pace in the plan I'm following is 12m in a week or two, it was 10m at MP in the Phoenix Park last w/end when I missed everyone.

Mr Slow

opus wrote: »

Perfect thanks a lot! Just wanted to confirm I didn't imagine reading it. Think the longest stretch of MP pace in the plan I'm following is 12m in a week or two, it was 10m at MP in the Phoenix Park last w/end when I missed everyone.

What race are you aiming for?

opus

mrslow wrote: »

What race are you aiming for?

Leipzig marathon on April 17th, 9 weeks to go according to my spreadsheet

Mr Slow

opus wrote: »

Leipzig marathon on April 17th, 9 weeks to go according to my spreadsheet

Good Luck

anymore

I run it a bit slower than my marathon pace - end of story.