Motorway tolls

Aard

I just read in another thread that to drive from Galway to DUB and back costs in the region of €15. Elsewhere, a lot of people pay €4 / €6 per day on the M50. Then again, a lot of people pay absolutely nothing for use of motorways. There was talk of creating new tolls on N routes, which I don't think anybody really agrees with. OTOH, there are a lot of people who can't understand why they should have to pay for use of a road (Liffey crossers, for example), while others can drive from South Dublin to Waterford toll-free.

This isn't meant to be an argument for or against tolls per se, but rather how they should be distributed. I've been thinking for a while of a solution of sorts for this.

What if there was a flat toll per day to drive on any and all motorways in the entire country? At every on-ramp there's a camera/booth and immediately you pay €4. Until 04:00 the next morning, you don't have to pay again, no matter how many times you enter a motorway, nor which ones you drive on.

Would this be possible to implement, both practically (cost of cameras, paying the various construction companies) and politically (how many people currently pay zero in tolls)?

-Chris-

But wouldn't that be entirely unfair to the person who only travels one junction on the motorway, versus the person who does 500KM a day?

Aard

Yes, but that already exists: M50 Blanch to Lucan VS Sandyford to Waterford.

Or indeed anywhere there is a toll currently.

-Chris-

So how is that an improvement? Why make the change?

Aard

Because it would widen the number of people who actually pay a toll, allowing it to be reduced. My €4 above could easily be much lower. Right now, all tolls are concentrated at certain pinchpoints. Also, for people travelling long distances, or frequently in the same day, it greatly reduces costs.

CIE

Aard wrote: »

I just read in another thread that to drive from Galway to DUB and back costs in the region of €15. Elsewhere, a lot of people pay €4 / €6 per day on the M50. Then again, a lot of people pay absolutely nothing for use of motorways. There was talk of creating new tolls on N routes, which I don't think anybody really agrees with. OTOH, there are a lot of people who can't understand why they should have to pay for use of a road (Liffey crossers, for example), while others can drive from South Dublin to Waterford toll-free.

This isn't meant to be an argument for or against tolls per se, but rather how they should be distributed. I've been thinking for a while of a solution of sorts for this.

What if there was a flat toll per day to drive on any and all motorways in the entire country? At every on-ramp there's a camera/booth and immediately you pay €4. Until 04:00 the next morning, you don't have to pay again, no matter how many times you enter a motorway, nor which ones you drive on.

Would this be possible to implement, both practically (cost of cameras, paying the various construction companies) and politically (how many people currently pay zero in tolls)?

It's either pay tolls or have the taxes go up. Nobody rides (or drives) for free; nobody really "pays nothing" to use the infrastructure, unless of course the tax rates are below the level of inflation, in which case the roads have to be either paid for via government borrowing or the government neglects the roads and you drive on them at your own and your car's risk. The more roads you build, the more taxes you must pay to keep them in good repair if they are "free" so-called. Either that or pay per use via tolls.

Aard

I meant that a lot of people begrudge the fact they they specifically have to pay tolls, whereas others pay no tolls at all. I wasn't saying that I think people are against tolls altogether.

wellbutty

I think the French have the perfect system where every on-ramp has a barrier and every off-ramp has a paypoint. The more motorway you drive, the more you pay. For a country of our size, this is just not practical so as long as we have toll roads, those that pass the most toll plazas will pay the most, regardless of distance traveled. I wouldnt complain at the M9 be tolled but I only use it every few weeks, commuters in Carlow might think differently.

-Chris-

Aard wrote: »

Because it would widen the number of people who actually pay a toll, allowing it to be reduced. My €4 above could easily be much lower. Right now, all tolls are concentrated at certain pinchpoints. Also, for people travelling long distances, or frequently in the same day, it greatly reduces costs.

Again, why should people travelling long distances or frequently using the motorway network be treated preferentially compared to people travelling one exit?

Why not implement/suggest a pay-by-use system based on distance travelled?

Aard

-Chris- wrote: »

Again, why should people travelling long distances or frequently using the motorway network be treated preferentially compared to people travelling one exit?

It's not preferential; they both pay the same toll. What you're describing is the situation at the moment, albeit on a smaller scale.

-Chris-

They both pay the same toll for vastly different usage amounts - so one is getting a preferential rate over the other.

veryangryman

Every road has been built in sections.

Each section has a different operator/contract, be it toll or non toll.

To classify the whole M9/M8/M6/whatever as a full Motorway for purpose of whether to toll or not is stupid.

In addition, some roads were built with EU funding - these are NOT legally allowed to be tolled (the sh1te that went on with Watergrasshill notwithstanding - SERIOUSLY how did that get a legal allowance)

Anyway i wouldnt worry - Dempsey is gone and hes not coming back His dopey ideas are a thing of the past.

Aard

veryangryman wrote: »

In addition, some roads were built with EU funding - these are NOT legally allowed to be tolled (the sh1te that went on with Watergrasshill notwithstanding - SERIOUSLY how did that get a legal allowance)

That answers my question so. If some roads can't be tolled by law, then the idea is impossible.

runway16

wellbutty wrote: »

I think the French have the perfect system where every on-ramp has a barrier and every off-ramp has a paypoint. The more motorway you drive, the more you pay. For a country of our size, this is just not practical so as long as we have toll roads, those that pass the most toll plazas will pay the most, regardless of distance traveled. I wouldnt complain at the M9 be tolled but I only use it every few weeks, commuters in Carlow might think differently.

I wouldnt advocate the French system. It once cost me 27 euro to drive one way from CDG airport in Paris to the Belgian Border, a similar distance as Dublin - Limerick.

I'll happily take the system we have now.

Del2005

Aard wrote: »

I meant that a lot of people begrudge the fact they they specifically have to pay tolls, whereas others pay no tolls at all. I wasn't saying that I think people are against tolls altogether.

There are always free alternatives to the tolled roads, or so they say, so these people are choosing to pay the toll to speed up their journey.

Other people choose routes where they don't have to pay tolls, why should they now be forced pay more because others want to take the easy option?

Tarabuses

No tolls, add the lost revenue to the price of petrol/diesel. Save the cost of collection, toll booths etc, remove delays at toll booths and everyone pays for the mileage they run up.

corktina

CIE wrote: »

It's either pay tolls or have the taxes go up. Nobody rides (or drives) for free; nobody really "pays nothing" to use the infrastructure, unless of course the tax rates are below the level of inflation, in which case the roads have to be either paid for via government borrowing or the government neglects the roads and you drive on them at your own and your car's risk. The more roads you build, the more taxes you must pay to keep them in good repair if they are "free" so-called. Either that or pay per use via tolls.

Wha!!!!! I agree with CIE...didnt see that coming...:D

Id be in favour of wider tolls on the main roads to spread the load more fairly. Not sure exactly how it would work though

corktina

Tarabuses wrote: »

No tolls, add the lost revenue to the price of petrol/diesel. Save the cost of collection, toll booths etc, remove delays at toll booths and everyone pays for the mileage they run up.

that doesnt work eirther as some people never go near a decent road and would be paying for them.

Del2005

corktina wrote: »

that doesnt work eirther as some people never go near a decent road

Just because a person doesn't drive on a decent road doesn't mean they aren't benefiting from it.

corktina wrote: »

and would be paying for them.

Once you pay any taxes you are paying for the roads, so kids buying sweets are paying for roads they can't use.

corktina

Del2005 wrote: »

Just because a person doesn't drive on a decent road doesn't mean they aren't benefiting from it.



.

but are they benefitting AS MUCH as someone who uses them regularly?

crc

runway16 wrote: »

It once cost me 27 euro to drive one way from CDG airport in Paris to the Belgian Border

What kind of vehicle? Depending on precisely where you crossed the border that journey should only have cost you around €15 in tolls (in a car).
http://www.autoroutes.fr/preparez-votre-voyage/itineraires.html

veryangryman

Del2005 wrote: »

Just because a person doesn't drive on a decent road doesn't mean they aren't benefiting from it.

Agree - the increased efficiency of people getting to and from work on time etc results in better productivity and more tax paid etc etc

Del2005 wrote: »

Once you pay any taxes you are paying for the roads, so kids buying sweets are paying for roads they can't use.

I dont agree with this. Even the total road tax take is NOT spent on roads. This is a fact.

veryangryman

About tolls and how they are distributed...I think its overall quite fair


2 tolls Dublin-Galway - the eventual Galway bypass wont be tolled
1 toll Dublin-Limerick but Limericks bypass is tolled so fair enough
2 tolls Dublin-Cork but Jack Lynch tunnel untolled
No tolls Dublin-Waterford. I justify this with the fact that Waterford bypass tolled plus the relatively shorter Motorway than the others
2 tolls Dublin-Kells. Crappy backwaters like Navan and Kells should never have gotten Motorways and of course should not expect rest of country to pay for them on their behalf. Id happily pay a toll on (say) an M55 or M62 if ever such a thing were built, safe in the knowledge that the road has zero national significance to anyone outside that corridoor

KevR

I don't mind the current system too much although I would like to see the M4 toll reduced to a price that is closer to the other inter-urban tolls.

I don't mind the M50 toll if, for example, I'm going the whole way from J7 to the M1 but whenever I just go J7-J6 all the while thinking that there are tens of thousands who travel longer distances for free daily on the M50, it does annoy me. It was suggested that there be 4 toll locations on the M50, with cars being charged 50cent (I presume this is with a tag and it would be 75cent without one) for each toll point that they pass. I think this would be fairer for everyone using the M50 and probably pull in a bit more revenue overall.

KevR

veryangryman wrote: »

I dont agree with this. Even the total road tax take is NOT spent on roads. This is a fact.

Very true! I don't know the figures for this year or last year, but I recall that in recent enough times roughly €7 Billion was being collected motor related taxes per year with only €1.1 Billion (approx.) being spent on roads in the same year.

Carawaystick

wellbutty wrote: »

I think the French have the perfect system where every on-ramp has a barrier and every off-ramp has a paypoint. The more motorway you drive, the more you pay. For a country of our size, this is just not practical so as long as we have toll roads, those that pass the most toll plazas will pay the most, regardless of distance traveled. I wouldnt complain at the M9 be tolled but I only use it every few weeks, commuters in Carlow might think differently.

There's loads of motorways in France with tolld or none which contradict your impression of them