How about this then!!

Billy Bunting

Fitted a LPG hob before xmas, customer was looking for the Propain bottle to be sunk into a shaft at the back of the house, i told them IS813 says they couldn't do that, and so I fitted the bottle against rear wall, anchored, tested, cert done, job complete. Today i passed the job and noticed the pipeword had been extended and bottle sunk. :eek:

Mmmm!! so what would you do :cool:

exaisle

Nothing. With all due respect, you're not their guardian angel. If they want to blow themselves up, tampering with their gas supply, so be it.

JohnnieK

Billy, Report it and wipe your hands.

Billy Bunting

It got me thinking, if i was unlucky enough to have this job inspected by RGII then i would be in a bit of bother explaining myself, this may well not be a one off, who knows. I will be reporting this to RGII but i also will in future be covering my ass with a couple of pics on the mobile, bluetoothed to my computer.

Billy Bunting

Billy Bunting wrote: »

It got me thinking, if i was unlucky enough to have this job inspected by RGII then i would be in a bit of bother explaining myself, this may well not be a one off, who knows. I will be reporting this to RGII but i also will in future be covering my ass with a couple of pics on the mobile, bluetoothed to my computer.

Rgii don't deal with LPG at the moment(as far as I know), try Calor for advice. Your job sheet is enough to protect you if it has a full description of a job and signed by you and the customer, you can also write down any advice given to a customer if your worried. Gary.

DoneDL

Definitely report it, there isn`t a snowballs chance of LPG being covered by RGI anytime soon so reporting is the only way to cover your a**e.

Joey the lips

I knew a lad that photographed every job. I would advise you to do one thing.

Call into the house tell them you noticed when passing what they done. Tell them that under your "operating conditions" you must report that an illegal fit was made as you may be held responsable.

Tell them if you report it there house insurence will become void.

Ask him if he can produce a receipt to show that job was done later. Take a copy of it. That way you have not reported it, your covered and he is now wiser to how much of an offence it is.

If it were me in the house despite my stubborn streak i would respect you and call you back again.

Sparkpea

I take before and after photos of most jobs I do, albeit more so the bigger jobs.

Report their ass, its your name on the cert - how are you going to prove that you didn't do that? It will look better you going to them rather than them to you...

Micky Dolenz

Who to report it too though? the supplier won't care as long as they sell gas. You can't account for peoples stupidity.

If I have advised a client on something and they go against it, I have a clear concious.

Although I was working in a council house once, that had a NG boiler and a LPG hob that was piped from the hob to bottle in the rubber pipe, even through the wall. I thought the councils engineer that I had no legal remit over it, but had a duty of care to the councils tenant. we were paid to put it right.


And whats the betting you will see more bottles sunk into the ground, I see one of the gas crowds selling the tank in the ground idea in their ads.

Talon.ie

Forgive my ignorance but what exactly is the problem with an underground tank?

I'm not trying to advocate for one, I just don't understand why it's a bad idea.

Micky Dolenz

Talon.ie wrote: »

Forgive my ignorance but what exactly is the problem with an underground tank?

I'm not trying to advocate for one, I just don't understand why it's a bad idea.

Because LPG is heavier than air so will sink. If you have it in a hole, you will have a small area holding a concentration of gas that can't disperse. Now all we are short, is a spark.

Talon.ie

Don't I feel stupid now..... Shoud have thought of that myself. Thanks

Billy Bunting

Beat me to it.

Micky Dolenz wrote: »

I see one of the gas crowds selling the tank in the ground idea in their ads.

Interestingly i notice on the ads that these tanks are only partially sunk, the controls, regulator and connections seem to be above ground.

JohnnieK

You can get under ground tanks but the bottles that you installed for them is a nanny no no.

heinbloed

Entire LPG tanks (up to 15,000 l as far as I know ) are installed underground. And certified by competent installers according to EN standards. No problem.

Micky Dolenz

heinbloed wrote: »

Entire LPG tanks (up to 15,000 l as far as I know ) are installed underground. And certified by competent installers according to EN standards. No problem.

The OP is referring to standard bottles.

heinbloed

"Standard" LPG bottles are used underground as well. No other combustion fuel is allowed in mines (limited space+ventilation) to run mining machinery.
It can be done safely. But one needs to know how.

Billy Bunting

heinbloed wrote: »

Entire LPG tanks (up to 15,000 l as far as I know ) are installed underground. And certified by competent installers according to EN standards. No problem.

Clear as mud all this. I do see the point of this but does the customer ??? IS813 states cylinder should be "located on firm level ground" not under it, it also states in a "well ventilated area where gas leakage will be dispersed", why is it ok for bulk storage tanks to not have to comply with same. Why are they installing and certifying to "EN standards".

Micky Dolenz

heinbloed wrote: »

"Standard" LPG bottles are used underground as well. No other combustion fuel is allowed in mines (limited space+ventilation) to run mining machinery.
It can be done safely. But one needs to know how.

But you can't just dig a hole and bury your gas tank. Why try and be argumentative just for the sake of it?

heinbloed

Mickey Dolenz wrote :

But you can't just dig a hole and bury your gas tank.

I can, you can. As long as we know what we are doing.

http://www.calor.co.uk/heating/domestic-central-heating/storage-options/single-bulk-tank-supply/underground-bulk-tanks/

heinbloed

Putting a gas bottle on firm ground means that it should not topple over or sink into it. A car, a JCB or a truck running on LPG bottles - is that firm ground? These are the same bottles.

Billy Bunting

So f#ck IS813, put your own slant on it or the heinbloed slant, and you'll be ok in front of the judge, i don't think so. :rolleyes:

Calor and Flogas list IS 813 in their fitting requirements for LPG cylinders, which means as we know above ground, never below the ground or sunken etc, etc...
but LPG regs are not enforceable at the moment :eek:
http://www.calorgas.ie/wp-content/uploads/2011/01/Calor-LPG-installation-booklet.pdf

Antiquo

Joey the lips wrote: »

Call into the house tell them you noticed when passing what they done. Tell them that under your "operating conditions" you must report that an illegal fit was made as you may be held responsable.

Tell them if you report it there house insurence will become void.

Ask him if he can produce a receipt to show that job was done later. Take a copy of it. That way you have not reported it, your covered and he is now wiser to how much of an offence it is.

If it were me in the house despite my stubborn streak i would respect you and call you back again.

It sounds like the extension of pipework to the shaft/sump was DIY by the householder. As they wanted it there in the first place "Monkey see monkey do with the pipework" so probability of invoice is nil however totally agree go back. That hole gets filled with gas because yer man botched a couple of pipes together you'll have a nice wee mortar if someone sparks it off.

Ask him if he remembers this from 1996?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Humberto_Vidal_Explosion

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r3yZyWir73I&feature=player_detailpage

DoneDL

My understanding of LPG risk is that the bottles have an inbuilt over pressure valve to protect the cylinder which will self vent and given the expansion rate of the liquified gas they cannot be installed below ground, near drains etc.

yoshytoshy

Antiquo wrote: »

Ask him if he remembers this from 1996?

Check this out ,this was LPG related.

Explosion in Baldoyle

heinbloed

DonalDL wrote :

My understanding of LPG risk is that the bottles have an inbuilt over pressure valve to protect the cylinder which will self vent and given the expansion rate of the liquified gas they cannot be installed below ground, near drains etc.

I think so as well, minimse the risk where possible.