something ive always wondered

irishh_bob

how do suckler farmers who use A.I manage to get thier cows in for service , do you have to train the whole herd to come in each day with a bag of meal ?

do you have to bring in all the cows and then seperate out the bulling cow ?
do you need a roadway and paddock system for quick access , i cant imagine bringing in bulling cows from a ten acre field

using A.I on sucklers makes perfect sense from a quality breeding point of view but i imagine the extra effort and infrastructure required compared to just running a bull is substantial

whelan1

we did it for years with our angus herd , they have the run of 40 acres:mad::mad: was grand when my brothers where at home , now we have a stock bull with them... i HATED running them in with a passion , we tried to synchronise a few of them together , also you have to run the calf in too as mammy doesnt like leaving her calf, we also had to run them across the road to the crush , but then we built another crush in the field, a jeep is essential and a good stick

ravima

synchronising is the job.

Bitten & Hisses

irishh_bob wrote: »

using A.I on sucklers makes perfect sense from a quality breeding point of view but i imagine the extra effort and infrastructure required compared to just running a bull is substantial

Now now Bob, Justin McCarthy says we should be doing it, so don't question him
Personally, I A.I. those who calve while housed and it's up to the bull after they hit grass, unless I want to go down a specific breeding route with a small number of cows. These would usuallybe the most docile ones and would be kept near the yard. Still a pain in the ass though.

blue5000

Ask the lads in grange, I use a bull. I'm thinking of using ai on heifers this year though.:P

pakalasa

I train mine with a bit of meal. I can get 3/4 of them in this way, no problem. A bit of meal every few days will keep them keen. Just shake a bit in a bucket and they all come runing. The akward ones just seem to know. Can be a bit of cursing done alright.
Having the water trough in the yard helps too. I've only 15 cows so having a bull doesnt make sense.

Bizzum

This time of the year it's easy to AI with the cattle in.
When they go out it's a pain. We have a bull now and it makes the job easy.
For me the bigger job was seeing when a cow was bulling, that was a pain. But we used Meal and a temp runway to the shed.
Sometimes the bull will shadow a cow an we take her in for AI the next day or two, but this is a risk as you can't be sure he will shadow, you could find her served just as easy!

johngalway

Dad sold off the last of the cattle a couple of years back. When we had cattle, the main place they'd be in was 55 acres of rough ground, Angus mostly with Limo offspring.

When you've the right set up, the job is easy.

First things first, if the cattle aren't used to the people driving them then you're pissing up a drainpipe in a hurricane. The odd time one of my sisters would come along to "help", despite our protests... They always proved the hardest days to get the cattle into the house/crush.

Ignore the awkward bitch that breaks away if the other cattle are going where you want them to, she'll feel left out and follow on most times. Don't even look at her.

Our pen was an old house, with the crush coming out the back door. Very open around the house most of the times. Except when we were putting them in, a few strategically placed gates would block up gaps and have them corralled into the house before they worked out they couldn't get away as normal.

So, have the cattle familiar with those working with them, have a good system that can catch them out, and be patient working them. Shouldn't be much trouble that way.

knotknowbody

I find a good dog is the best way, i can bring my 20 cows and their calves in on my own, just go to the gate of the field send the dog for them and they know what to do at this stage, they don't even try to fight with him anymore.:D

reilig

Our cows are moved from field to field once or twice a week. They know that if the gate is opened they just have to go out of it for fresh grass. The older cows train the younger cows. They just run into the yard. One person can do it on their own. Calves will usually just follow the cows out.

We have a good cattle dog but its not safe to use a cattle dog on cows with calves. They will always defend their calves and could easily roll man or dog and cause serious injury.

vanderbadger

might ai the ones that come bulling during the winter while indoors but once they go out will leave the bull at them, its easy enough to bring them in to be honest but with work during the day its just hard to watch them

westlander

pakalasa wrote: »

I train mine with a bit of meal. I can get 3/4 of them in this way, no problem. A bit of meal every few days will keep them keen. Just shake a bit in a bucket and they all come runing. The akward ones just seem to know. Can be a bit of cursing done alright.
Having the water trough in the yard helps too. I've only 15 cows so having a bull doesnt make sense.

Same here we dont have enough cows to justify getting a bull so its AI for us. Only thing is when your working you might miss them bulling. Luckily enough mam is at home and she calls the AI if she sees them bulling.

Our cows could calve anytime of the yr but while they're inside slatted shed its not too bad getting the AI.

Can you get your cows to calve round the same period? sponging its called or something. I could be dreaming too :pac:

Muckit

We're all AI aswel, like you pakalasa, small no. of cows.

I'd agree with OP, breeding benefits of AI are undisputed, but getting cows in can be tricky at the best of times. Here's what I've found helps, especially when farming part time:

• Good handling facilites are ESSENTIAL and worth any money. I must post up a few photos of what I've done. Basically they go into a well fenced 'corral' out the field first, and are driven from this into penning near slatted shed for sorting. Nothing out of ordinary, but effective. I'd love to hear/see what other lads are doing and if you've any special ideas/gismos aswel;)

• I'd rate DOCILITY very highly. A mad cow around the place not only makes handling a herd difficult, she's also a liability from a health and safety point of view. We're crossing all over limousine and charolais X's back to Angus this year for that reason. The three-way X should also bring small hardy calves with plenty of hybrid vigour. Any cow that raised her ears or tail last summer got the factory in October.

• I've personally found the HEAT DETECTION patches good as an aid for spotting cows coming a bulling. We keep a few heavy store bullocks too and these ok to show up heats.

Edit: I also think there's an opening in the market for a well-designed and affordable cow handling facility out the field to aid with A.I. Something that would simplify the whole procedure and possibly eliminate bringing cows back to the yard.

reilig

Muckit wrote: »

[*]I've personally found the HEAT DETECTION patches good as an aid for spotting cows coming a bulling. We keep a few heavy store bullocks too and these ok to show up heats.
[/LIST]

I found the heat detection patches to be great last year too and only used the cheap scratchcard type. Used a lot of AI as bull got injured half way through the season. Plan to use a lot more ai this year too.

sh1tstirrer

Muckit wrote: »

Edit: I also think there's an opening in the market for a well-designed and affordable cow handling facility out the field to aid with A.I. Something that would simplify the whole procedure and possibly eliminate bringing cows back to the yard.

I have seen plenty of them at the ploughing and on the farmers journal. They are a crush on wheels with a series of gates that can be towed with a 4x4. Well designed yes but they could burn a hole in your pocket.

Dunedin

ravima wrote: »

synchronising is the job.

do you find this successful on older cows............ I have just did 5 maiden (2 year old) heifers so will see if they work out or not.


I was thinking of doing it on the cows as i woudl be able to take a week off work for calving time in addition to maybe trying for a few higher quality BB calves.


my vet told me that it doesn't work as well with cows as they are not as fertile. how has it worked for you?

Muckit

whelan1 wrote: »

we did it for years with our angus herd , they have the run of 40 acres:mad::mad:

Hi Whelan

You being a dairy farmer, I'm surprised that you don't paddock graze your beef stock. I suppose you've enough to be doing with the milking, but wouldn't they have better quality grass in front of them?

whelan1

the angus are my dads on an outfarm a mile away, it is split in to 4 or 5 sections , but they sometimes have the run of the whole lot , we used to do embryo transfer etc , but dont have the time now ... we could do alot more with them i suppose

just do it

Dunedin wrote: »

do you find this successful on older cows............ I have just did 5 maiden (2 year old) heifers so will see if they work out or not.


I was thinking of doing it on the cows as i woudl be able to take a week off work for calving time in addition to maybe trying for a few higher quality BB calves.


my vet told me that it doesn't work as well with cows as they are not as fertile. how has it worked for you?

Yeah, works well with maiden heifers but not so well with cows. The best option I've found is to watch for them bulling after removing the coil rather than fixed time ai. I now use a vasectomised bull and find him much better than any of the heat detection devices.

Regarding taking the week off work at calving:

• They all wont go in calf first time (50% pregnancy rate at first mating at synchrinisation I reckon is a good result)
• Even if all in calf on same day, they wont all calve the same week

One benefit of synchronising is they will come bulling within 2-3 days of each other on each subsequent bulling.

Hope this helps.

just do it

Just to add, I've put coils in cows 33days post calving just to get them cycling. I do this particularly if they're late calvers to try keep my calving interval tight. 42days post calving is the recommended time for first service post calving. Having said that, I AI'd 2 cows this year at 31 and 33 days post calving and both held. Two others AI'd at 36 and 37 days came bulling again, but have held at 2nd and 3rd AI.

Bodacious

knotknowbody wrote: »

I find a good dog is the best way, i can bring my 20 cows and their calves in on my own, just go to the gate of the field send the dog for them and they know what to do at this stage, they don't even try to fight with him anymore.:D

You must have a right good strong dog to handle cows and calves! Would he be a bit rough on sheep then too or is he cattle only?

PANADOL

. I've only 15 cows so having a bull doesnt make sense.[/QUOTE]

why its 30 plus euro to ai plus all the hassle of watching putting them in tried it last year just no way i would hang around so why is it not worth having a bull with 15 cows?

pakalasa

why its 30 plus euro to ai plus all the hassle of watching putting them in tried it last year just no way i would hang around so why is it not worth having a bull with 15 cows?

I know it can be 'six of one, half dozen of the other'.
One of the main reasons is that there is a right of way through our land. One of the old mass paths. Dont like the idea of kids with a dog, walking through a field with a bull in it. I know I'm entitled to have a bull and all that, but it's a recipe for disaster, in my book.
The other reason, is that I'm not around during the day, so I need them to calve away on their own. With AI, I still get a decent weanling by using easy calving bulls.
And the AI guy wont pin you against the wall either......not if pay your bills.:D

irishh_bob

thanks for all the replys so far

while i fully appreciate that A.I sires are nearly always superior to any stock bull , the extra investment in infrastructure required in order to herd suckler cows ( who tend to be wild compared to dairy cows ) each day during breeding season , combined with the fact that thier isnt much money in suckling anyway , leads me to wonder , is the extra expense and effort worth it ?

reilig

irishh_bob wrote: »

thanks for all the replys so far

while i fully appreciate that A.I sires are nearly always superior to any stock bull , the extra investment in infrastructure required in order to herd suckler cows ( who tend to be wild compared to dairy cows ) each day during breeding season , combined with the fact that thier isnt much money in suckling anyway , leads me to wonder , is the extra expense and effort worth it ?

There is much less investment in infrastructure needed for handling sucklers than Dairy cows. Sucklers are no more wild than dairy cows if you handle them on a regular basis. All you need is a proper yard with a good crush. Do you need less than this for AI on a dairy cow????

Did you not post on this forum last year about how little profit and mostly losses there was to be made from Dairying? Has the price per litre of milk gone up so much in the last 12 months that ye'r all making huge profits???
How much profit do you have to make for Dairying to be profitable when you consider that its a 365 days a year job with 2 milkings per day? You can't even leave the house overnight without putting arangements in place. At least with suckling you can go away for a night and you're not tied to being up at 6am for a milking. You would need to have more money from Dairying for these extra responsibilities IMO

Suckling is like dairy farming. You have to invest in wintering and handling facilities. If you do then you will be able to handle your cattle with ease. You have bad years where you make a loss and good years where you make a profit and you hope that they will balance themselves over time to kep your head above water.

In answer to your question, infrastructure is required for both suckling and dairy. The only extra expense that you refer to is the cost of AI. Personally, calves bred off AI will give an average profit of €100 more per head than calves off a stock bull. So well worth it.

Muckit

irishh_bob wrote: »

thanks for all the replys so far

while i fully appreciate that A.I sires are nearly always superior to any stock bull , the extra investment in infrastructure required in order to herd suckler cows ( who tend to be wild compared to dairy cows ) each day during breeding season , combined with the fact that thier isnt much money in suckling anyway , leads me to wonder , is the extra expense and effort worth it ?

Well let's look at the alternative...

If you don't use A.I the only other solution (apart from E.T.) is to use a bull.

• So you've to go buy a bull. €1500 is the minimum your going to be spending there for a good quality animal especially if you go through an official sale with fertility guarantee. Buy him out of a shed from a farmer and you could have hassle if he's not working. Either way, if he is 'wrong', when do you find out? Have you potentially lost half your crop of calves for a given year?

• Using A.I you've a better idea of calving date. Using a bull you won't, even if you try to spot heats, which is difficult. AND your basically doing half the job you'd have to do if your were A.I ing.

• Then you've to feed him and look after him. He's his job done over the summer, but you've still to feed him over the winter. Never under estimate how much an animal that size will eat.

• If you bring him inside and he's on slats, you're probably going to have to be looking after his feet.

• Put him on straw on he will need to be bedded (€ plus money)

• Leave him out and you've to be giving him V.I.P treatment to feed him and he'I root up a paddock near the yard

• If you want to breed your own replacements, you'I have to factory him once his daughters are in the herd or there's extra management to break your herd into groups

• If you decide to get over that hurl by not breeding your own, you've to go out and buy replacements. Your not never going to be 100% sure of their pedigree and whether they'I throw a good calf or not AND you pay well if she looks likie she will.

• One bull won't suit every cow, unless you've them all well hand picked and cull those that don't. Regardless, you've still the problem of what to do with heifers. If you get a bull that'I suit heifers, you wouldn't be getting the best out of your best cow.

• Having a bull then,as Pakalasa said, leaves you with a possible liability on your hands

So where do you go? :rolleyes:

There's definitely for and against A.I or having a bull.
It's up to each farmer to make his own mind up on what best suits him.

Bizzum

Muckit wrote: »

Well let's look at the alternative...

If you don't use A.I the only other solution (apart from E.T.) is to use a bull.

• So you've to go buy a bull. €1500 is the minimum your going to be spending there for a good quality animal especially if you go through an official sale with fertility guarantee. Buy him out of a shed from a farmer and you could have hassle if he's not working. Either way, if he is 'wrong', when do you find out? Have you potentially lost half your crop of calves for a given year?

• Using A.I you've a better idea of calving date. Using a bull you won't, even if you try to spot heats, which is difficult. AND your basically doing half the job you'd have to do if your were A.I ing.

• Then you've to feed him and look after him. He's his job done over the summer, but you've still to feed him over the winter. Never under estimate how much an animal that size will eat.

• If you bring him inside and he's on slats, you're probably going to have to be looking after his feet.

• Put him on straw on he will need to be bedded (€ plus money)

• Leave him out and you've to be giving him V.I.P treatment to feed him and he'I root up a paddock near the yard

• If you want to breed your own replacements, you'I have to factory him once his daughters are in the herd or there's extra management to break your herd into groups

• If you decide to get over that hurl by not breeding your own, you've to go out and buy replacements. Your not never going to be 100% sure of their pedigree and whether they'I throw a good calf or not AND you pay well if she looks likie she will.

• One bull won't suit every cow, unless you've them all well hand picked and cull those that don't. Regardless, you've still the problem of what to do with heifers. If you get a bull that'I suit heifers, you wouldn't be getting the best out of your best cow.

• Having a bull then,as Pakalasa said, leaves you with a possible liability on your hands

So where do you go? :rolleyes:

There's definitely for and against A.I or having a bull.
It's up to each farmer to make his own mind up on what best suits him.

Thats about it in a nutshell!
We use both and I'd say a lot of farmers with a bull still use AI to some extent.
The singular thing that annoys me most with AI are the repeats. So your €30 a head is probably going to be half that again!

reilig

Bizzum wrote: »

Thats about it in a nutshell!
We use both and I'd say a lot of farmers with a bull still use AI to some extent.
The singular thing that annoys me most with AI are the repeats. So your €30 a head is probably going to be half that again!

Our AI doesn't charge for repeats

Bizzum

reilig wrote: »

Our AI doesn't charge for repeats

Really? Who are ya using?
I remember a time when you repeats were free but not anymore. Basic charge of €10/€12 now for number 2 and 3, then back to full whack for number 4. Some straws are even more than the basic rate.
We use Eurogene and have used Progressive. Dovea AI man locally too but never used him, although bought some straws off them.

reilig

Bizzum wrote: »

Really? Who are ya using?
I remember a time when you repeats were free but not anymore. Basic charge of €10/€12 now for number 2 and 3, then back to full whack for number 4. Some straws are even more than the basic rate.
We use Eurogene and have used Progressive. Dovea AI man locally too but never used him, although bought some straws off them.

Our guy is independent and can supply straws from a range of AI stations. He used to be with Progressive and charged 10 for a repeat but there's no charge since he went out on his own. He'll also come to you at any time that your request from 7am to 10pm.

whelan1

reilig wrote: »

Our guy is independent and can supply straws from a range of AI stations. He used to be with Progressive and charged 10 for a repeat but there's no charge since he went out on his own. He'll also come to you at any time that your request from 7am to 10pm.

is that legal? does he not have to work under the umbrella of one of the ai societies

reilig

whelan1 wrote: »

is that legal? does he not have to work under the umbrella of one of the ai societies

He works under the umbrella of 4 of the ai societies. You will get a docket from him from the ai society that the straw comes from. I don't know about the legalities of it. I'm sure someone on here does though.

I thought it was a licence system - none needed for diy but required if you're providing a public service. But as I said, I don't know.

towzer2010

My guy does the same and doesnt charge for repeats. He's from Progressive and he's very good for calling out after I come from work. He'll even do a quiet one on his own if she's left in the yard.

Bizzum

Jaysus, there seems to be way to much variation in the same industry.
I suppose that's competition for ya.
Maybe its up to ourselves to hammer out the best deal we can our own supplier!
The AI man that comes to us is very good. He will work away alone and he rang me once to say there was blood on a heifers tail so no go, I know others would Ai away just for the money.