lack of remorse more a sign than lack of empathy for sociopathy

metrovelvet

I found this very interesting article/bloc by a practitioner who posits that a lack of empathy is a quality in many syndromes and the general population can at times be empathy deficient and that a lack of remorse is a much stronger sign of sociopathy in an individual. We may not be able to see someone else's point of view but we can be sorry we hurt or upset them nonetheless.

Be interesting to hear what other people think.

http://www.lovefraud.com/blog/2011/01/27/lack-of-remorse-as-more-significant-of-sociopathy-than-lack-of-empathy/

Sometimes I like to revisit, churn all over again, a prior concern around sociopathy. A number of colleagues were recently stressing the defective quality of empathy in the more sociopathic clients they work with, while I found myself stressing the quality of remorselessness in the more sociopathic clients with whom I work (and have worked).

In my view, remorselessness is a much more serious indicator of sociopathy than lack of empathy per se. I know I’ve stated this in previous pieces, but well…here I go all over again.

Many people lack empathy for a great many reasons, depending on how one even defines empathy. But clearly this is true—many of us have a relatively difficult time emotionally stepping into another’s shoes and genuinely, emotionally inhabiting (as it were) his or her experience; that is, feeling their experience with them, for them.

I’d venture to say that a rather high percentage of the general population fails pretty badly at meeting this pretty classical criterion to be considered “empathic.” Of course, nothing is black and white: sometimes we find ourselves experiencing empathy in surprising circumstances, almost unaccountably; otherwise, sensing that empathy is clearly indicated in certain situations, we might find ourselves in suprisingly, uncomfortably short supplies of it?

And so the experience of pure empathy eludes many of us, perhaps even the majority of us, often…more often than we might even want to admit.

However, remorselessness is a whole different kettle of fish. A typical case involving a nonsociopath goes like this. One partner, a good communicator, says to her husband, “What you said to me last night in front of our company was humiliating. You have no idea, I’m guessing, how much that hurt me and pissed me off. If you ever do that again, I swear I may never forgive you.”

Her husband, if he’s really honest, might say, “You know what? I really don’t have any idea. I didn’t see, and still don’t, why what I said was that big a deal. I was trying to be funny. I didn’t think you’d take it so personally.”

This husband, we might say, lacks empathy. We don’t even need to know what he said that aroused his wife’s ire to surmise that, here, in this example, taken from a couples session I facilitated recently, he is demonstrating less than optimal empathy.

But he also added, sincerely, “I’m sorry. I am. I’m sorry I hurt you so much. I won’t do that again.”

His wife was only somewhat appeased by his apology because, while it expressed remorse, it didn’t reflect much, if any, empathy. And she wanted more than remorse. She wanted empathy.

I believe it is entirely possible, even common, to express remorse, sincerely, even in the absence of empathically appreciating the impact of the original behavior for which you are expressing the remorse. This is because, if you are not a sociopath, you can really feel bad for hurting someone even without quite understanding why what you did was so hurtful.

Now, in the example above, the partner chastised for his previous night’s insensitivity could have responded differently, reacting to his wife’s feedback with, “You know what? Too damned bad. So you felt hurt? Well…get over it.”

This would be a response not only lacking in empathy but also in remorse. As an isolated, occasionally defensive, hostile response, it wouldn’t necessarily suggest the presence of sociopathy; but as a patterned kind of remorseless reaction it may very well signal the presence of sociopathic tendencies.

In the vast majority of cases, the relatively non-empathic individual reacts with some form of true remorse upon learning he or she has been experienced as damaging, even if it comes as a real, confusing surprise to learn this. Again, the typical response might be along the lines of, “Really? I had no idea.” (reflecting defective empathy) “But I’m really sorry. I didn’t mean to hurt you like that.” (reflecting remorse).

Where remorse is missing from acts that have been experienced as hurtful, we find ourselves in much more seriously disturbed territory. Sociopaths, of course, may feign remorse, although many times not. But feigned, shallow remorse—remorse that serves his self-interest, not yours—is worth less than no remorse.

A chronic theme of weak, or absent, remorse is thus much more indicative of the sociopathically oriented individual than the measure of his empathy. Oddly enough weak, or even sometimes missing, empathy, doesn’t necessarily preclude some form of meaningful connection with another (although it won’t be empathically-based).

But weak, or missing, remorse fatally does preclude such a connection, ensuring only the possibility of a damaging, exploitive experience.

(This article is copyrighted © 2011 by Steve Becker, LCSW. My use of male gender pronouns is for convenience’s sake only, not to suggest that females aren’t capable of the attitudes and behaiors discussed.)

Sardonicat

Hi Metero

You may be interested in the work of an early phenomenologist, Edith Stein. Her work on empathy; "The Problem of Empathy", is an attempt to understand and explain how empathy works and enables us to live amongst others. Having studied Stein myself I have often questioned the notion that sociopaths lack empathy. Surely, in order to be ultra-manipulative and convincing one needs to have a very acute of empathatic intelligence in order to figure out what makes others tick and use this to one's advantage?

metrovelvet

Sardonicat wrote: »

Hi Metero

You may be interested in the work of an early phenomenologist, Edith Stein. Her work on empathy; "The Problem of Empathy", is an attempt to understand and explain how empathy works and enables us to live amongst others. Having studied Stein myself I have often questioned the notion that sociopaths lack empathy. Surely, in order to be ultra-manipulative and convincing one needs to have a very acute of empathatic intelligence in order to figure out what makes others tick and use this to one's advantage?

Yes that makes sense. And it makes sense that a higher empathy quota will facilitate a more exploitative motive. I guess they can sense others pain but it doesn't really stop them from doing what they need to do or want to do. From what I have read too, they are experts at studying people so they can pick up signs and imitate but often just get it a little bit off, like going to theatre where you walk away thinking 'that just doesnt ring true' but you cant put your finger on why exactly.

I also wonder about how this works philosophically too.

To take a trivial example, just for the sake of clarity. Every Christmas we have Turkey for dinner. My brother, a vegetarian, calls us 'a bunch of sociopaths' as we knife into the turkey because he opposes animal cruelty. Now, I eat the Turkey without remorse and I will eat it again, regardless of my brothers outrage and I doubt anyone in a clinical setting would call me sociopathic for eating Turkey on Christmas day, because the ethos of the day supports my choice to do so. I also don't feel I would have to apologise for eating Turkey on Christmas day or that the whole family should eat nutroast either. In other words, if according to the article the sociopathic response is about a lack of remorse, than doesn't that pivot to some extent on the morality of the day. Another example. A woman who has had seven abortions without remorse. A pro lifer might look at that like it's sociopathic. A pro choicer might look at that as well, whatever.

Another question. There may be perfect uses for sociopaths or lacking empathy. Take for example surgery or better still, pediatric surgery. I often wonder how they can distance themselves enough to take that scalpal and dig into those tiny bodies. Soldiers? Even for food supplies?

Sardonicat

Those are excellent philosophical questions! You might want to start a thread with them on the phil forum framed as phil of mind/philosophical anthropology questions. Not sure I should get into attempting to answer them here, seeing as it is the psych forum!

But I do think you have raised some valid psychological points with those questions highlighting the link between empathy and the ability to feel remorse, and whether remorse is innate or culturally and environmentally conditioned as opposed to empathy.

Perhaps one of the psychs would be interested in exploring those aspects of your questions for us?

Odysseus

From my viewpoint the question belongs here, those with inputs can come from the Phil Forum, though I have informed the OP if she wants it moved we will do that, as she a psych discussion.

Firstly in general there is a vast misunderstanding between the terms psychopath, sociopath and dis-social personal disorder or ASPD even amongst professions. Sociopath or psychopath is not included in the DSM or ICD-10 as a separate category.

I seen a recently ho his treating GP had written off as a sociopath, he clearly showed remorse during my sessions. Low and behold our Psych has diagnosed he dis-social personality disorder. Have a look at the criteria for Dis-Social PD and addiction it describes a "typical" addict with criminal issues. It was suggested by our staff that I do not seen this person in my office upstarts as it is very isolated, I refused.

The ethics of dealing with a person like this with a very long history of violent behaviour is an interesting one; I give my clients the freedom to speak about this, I tell then that once it was in the past I will be reporting nothing, if they are planning on killing someone that night it is a different matter.

How else can I get them to explore it, I know some therapist's who have significant issues’ with this.

I have stated here before about my issues with the concept empathy, I see it as have little use psycho-therapeutically. As these diagnoses are not used in psychoanalysis, I have posted in the past asking for a discussion about these terms.

I have a good few more thoughts on the topic which I will try to get posted tonight, as always they are merely my thoughts, not saying I'm right. However, there are only two real therapists in my centre so I'm tend to get the clients that are diagnosed with the above diagnoses as they staff know I have an interest in these people.

I'll add a bit more later

Sardonicat

Thanks Odys

It's good to see a psych prespective on metero's op. By the way, i wasn't suggesting that the thread be moved at all. I just didn't want to respond to the philosophical questions in the psych forum and drag things off topic. I'd be happy to answer from a philosphical pov if she wants but I'm concsious this is the psych forum and I'm trying to respect ye're space here.

Odys, based on your treatment of people with these diagnoses would you reject diagnoses like Sociopathy etc. out of hand? I'd imagine that it is difficult to support such a diagnosis if empathy is not a concept used by you in your work. It's interesting that you used the term "written off" by his GP. I sometimes suspect that people are written off, once they get a label like that they are deemed untreatable - not so much ill but disordered in some way, and therefore beyond help.

metrovelvet

I would be quite happy to see the psychs address the philosophical aspects if it interests them. I dont think its either/or here but both/and.

I've often wondered how therapy can work for a sociopath if the therapist cant be empathetic to him/her. Do you think psychoanalysis is useful for a socio precisely because empathy is not necessary?

If your client is in analysis, is showing remorse which you believe to be genuine, and he WANTS to change, do you suspect the GP was wrong? Is a GP qualified to make such a diagnosis?

Odysseus

metrovelvet wrote: »

I would be quite happy to see the psychs address the philosophical aspects if it interests them. I dont think its either/or here but both/and.

I've often wondered how therapy can work for a sociopath if the therapist cant be empathetic to him/her. Do you think psychoanalysis is useful for a socio precisely because empathy is not necessary?

If your client is in analysis, is showing remorse which you believe to be genuine, and he WANTS to change, do you suspect the GP was wrong? Is a GP qualified to make such a diagnosis?

I'm not saying there is not a Phil side to clinical work and if people want to talk about it great. Far from it, all clinicals should be reading more it. AS I I know you studied Lacan could I recommend Lacan "The Ethics of Psychoanalysis" He uses Antigone as the ethics of following ones desire, even it goes against the laws of society

From my viewpoint, it's about allowing them to put words on those issues. Violence is the big issue in my work with those diagnosed as ASPD of Dis-social PB, the may not be real psychopaths. However, the lack of empathy and remorse is one criterion.

Some people spoke of not believing that someone cannot be shocked. I'm not saying that but it really takes a lot to shock me, and when it does happen it is usually some small the last thing that shock me was discovering that some client's younger girls where injecting HGH into their stomach muscles to get a tan:eek: Rather than something horrific

Yes I do believe the GP was wrong, and we changed his new Dr and he concurs with me. No a psych should be making that call, but GP's diagnosis and tx some psych disorders such as mild depressive disorders, for a diagnosis of being a psychopath there is the PCL psychopathic check list by Hare though I think its R-PCL having being revised. However, the psychologists here could elaborate more on that, than I could

What I do know is with meds and tx from the vicious acts of violence has stopped. From the moment

Give me a bit and I add more

Odysseus

Sardonicat wrote: »

Thanks Odys

It's good to see a psych prespective on metero's op. By the way, i wasn't suggesting that the thread be moved at all. I just didn't want to respond to the philosophical questions in the psych forum and drag things off topic. I'd be happy to answer from a philosphical pov if she wants but I'm concsious this is the psych forum and I'm trying to respect ye're space here.

Odys, based on your treatment of people with these diagnoses would you reject diagnoses like Sociopathy etc. out of hand? I'd imagine that it is difficult to support such a diagnosis if empathy is not a concept used by you in your work. It's interesting that you used the term "written off" by his GP. I sometimes suspect that people are written off, once they get a label like that they are deemed untreatable - not so much ill but disordered in some way, and therefore beyond help.

You viewpoint is welcome here mate, I have to make a few calls so I'm tight on time but yes I have seen way too many people written off for many resaons. I have not been keeping up on my Phil reading, been focusing on my Shakesapeare, which I also believe is is important to work as a clinica,