Protest over minimum wage cut

Maj Malfunction

The Unions where out today to complain about the change in the minimum wage, being slashed by 1 yoyo down to 7.65.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2011/0201/breaking34.html

Yet same Unions won't mention the fact that:

1. The number of businesses closing due to staff costs.
2. The number of people on the dole due to staff costs.
3. The fact that Ireland had the 5th highest minimum wage in the whole of Europe. Ireland will have the 8th highest with the change.
4. The fact that Ireland has had deflation for the best part of 2 years; increasing the value of the money in your pocket.
5. The fact that higher wages increases inflation and was a contributor to Ireland getting into the position its in.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_sovereign_states_in_Europe_by_minimum_wage

And because nobody had money left in their pocket, everyone headed north of the border cause it was cheaper, only to find their jobs gone when they got back.

It's parties that support the Unions and pander to their polices that win elections and stuff the country up. Don't elect a politician; elect an economist, people.

Dale Parish

I predicts replies suggesting it is the fault of the infrastructure etc (which is, in fairness, crap). These other "factors" were much worse in the lead up to the Celtic Tiger :rolleyes:
The idea of a minimum wage is somewhat ridiculous IMO.
No, long debate with left-wingers won't change my mind.

whiteonion

the minimum wage will give you about €300 a week before tax, would you like to live on that?

FreudianSlippers

whiteonion wrote: »

the minimum wage will give you about €300 a week before tax, would you like to live on that?

I never understand this argument. It makes it seem like people are forced to work for the minimum wage...

plus AFAIK, you don't pay any tax if you're on minimum wage.

flutered

FreudianSlippers wrote: »

I never understand this argument. It makes it seem like people are forced to work for the minimum wage...

plus AFAIK, you don't pay any tax if you're on minimum wage.

possibly not, but they get stung for the universal health levy.

FreudianSlippers

flutered wrote: »

possibly not, but they get stung for the universal health levy.

As they should... they're using it after all aren't they?

RGS

The minimum wage is paid to less than 5% of the working population so is not the main cause of the current problems.
IMO the upward only rent reviews are a far bigger problem as this effects nearly all businesses.

Amhran Nua

RGS wrote: »

The minimum wage is paid to less than 5% of the working population so is not the main cause of the current problems.
IMO the upward only rent reviews are a far bigger problem as this effects nearly all businesses.

Exactly right, not only are there a tiny amount of people on minimum wage, taking money out of their hands reduces the general amount sloshing around the economy, and to be honest if you were closing over the €40 per week extra, your business wasn't going to last long anyway. Thankfully FG are going to reverse the FF decision.

High rents badly need to be dealt with though, I'd recommend collecting full council rates on empty commercial properties asap, that will change the landscape in a hurry.

GCU Flexible Demeanour

Amhran Nua wrote: »

Exactly right, not only are there a tiny amount of people on minimum wage, taking money out of their hands reduces the general amount sloshing around the economy, and to be honest if you were closing over the €40 per week extra, your business wasn't going to last long anyway.

I'm afraid I don't think your analysis stacks up, for a couple of reasons.

The main one is that the fact that only a few people on the minimum wage, and a massive amount unemployed, is actually evidence that its too high.

Amhran Nua wrote: »

High rents badly need to be dealt with though, I'd recommend collecting full council rates on empty commercial properties asap, that will change the landscape in a hurry.

Here I agree.

Average_Joe

This is cos of those wnkers from europe again. They totally fcuked up this country. They sent those fcuking Poles over here and now that we dont have enough jobs they wont fcuk off home. The worse thing we ever did was give in to those pr1cks from dail eireann and vote yes to Lisbon. Things were grand before that went through.

RichardAnd

Average_Joe wrote: »

This is cos of those wnkers from europe again. They totally fcuked up this country. They sent those fcuking Poles over here and now that we dont have enough jobs they wont fcuk off home. The worse thing we ever did was give in to those pr1cks from dail eireann and vote yes to Lisbon. Things were grand before that went through.

If only things were so simple. The massive levels of job creation before the crash was fuelled by a constant stream of easy credit that allowed "entrepreneurs" to build housing estates on the side of a mountain. This credit had already started to dry up in early 2007 and by the end of that year, it was clear that the "good times" were very much over.

Lisbon arrived in mid 2008 when the crash was already starting in earnest. Thus, the vote on Lisbon had effectively nothing to do with the recession. As much as I dislike petty euro-trash politics and as much as it is true that European policies contributed to the availability of credit to Irish banks, simply because the bar is open doesn't mean one must get drunk. In short, our current mess is very much of our own making.

urbanachiever1

Average_Joe wrote: »

This is cos of those wnkers from europe again. They totally fcuked up this country. They sent those fcuking Poles over here and now that we dont have enough jobs they wont fcuk off home. The worse thing we ever did was give in to those pr1cks from dail eireann and vote yes to Lisbon. Things were grand before that went through.

No, we actively invited those "fcuking" Poles over here to fill positions in the (mostly manual) labour market. Some proved to be very good workers and that is why they are still here working. Just like those Irish fcukers in USA, Canada, Australia, UK etc etc.

urbanachiever1

The minimum wage decrease is necessary but should be coupled with a decrease in wages generally, especially in the public service. An example: Average wage of air traffic controller in Ireland: €160,000 Heathrow: €106,000.
Also Unemployment assistance should be cut (I say this even though I am in receipt of it) as with rent allowance and other benefits it approaches the level of minimum wage pay.

jimmycrackcorm

whiteonion wrote: »

the minimum wage will give you about €300 a week before tax, would you like to live on that?

I'd prefer it over the dole.

jimmycrackcorm

Average_Joe wrote: »

This is cos of those wnkers from europe again. They totally fcuked up this country. They sent those fcuking Poles over here and now that we dont have enough jobs they wont fcuk off home. The worse thing we ever did was give in to those pr1cks from dail eireann and vote yes to Lisbon. Things were grand before that went through.

Single handedly proving that this idea of building a smart economy cannot work.

longhalloween

urbanachiever1 wrote: »

No, we actively invited those "fcuking" Poles over here to fill positions in the (mostly manual) labour market. Some proved to be very good workers and that is why they are still here working. Just like those Irish fcukers in USA, Canada, Australia, UK etc etc.

Not to mention all the immigrants who took jobs which Irish people were too 'proud' to take, like working in fast food restaurants, cleaners and the like. Now they still have their jobs and we have nothing.

Fair dues to any immigrant who came over here and got a job and was competent and responsible enough to, not like Irish scroungers who'd prefer to take the dole than tell their friends they were workin in McDonalds.

RichardAnd

longhalloween wrote: »

Not to mention all the immigrants who took jobs which Irish people were too 'proud' to take, like working in fast food restaurants, cleaners and the like. Now they still have their jobs and we have nothing.

Fair dues to any immigrant who came over here and got a job and was competent and responsible enough to, not like Irish scroungers who'd prefer to take the dole than tell their friends they were workin in McDonalds.

I wouldn't say an irish person not bothering to apply for a job as a cleaner was necessarily a case of pride. during the boom, it was easy to get a job paying much more than min wage so why work for it when one doesn't have to?

ei.sdraob

Its not just the minimum wage thats the issue

but various min wage agreements in various sectors set above the min wage, such as catering and construction

we often hear people asking why is there no stimulus in road building for example, at ~15 euro or so an hour min the stimulus money wont go far!

johnnyskeleton

RGS wrote: »

The minimum wage is paid to less than 5% of the working population so is not the main cause of the current problems.
IMO the upward only rent reviews are a far bigger problem as this effects nearly all businesses.

I'd agree that it is not the main cause and I'd also agree that issues such as rents, rates, services, transport, buracracy, employer side taxes etc which all discourage employment need to be addressed more urgently.

However, I would agree with the cut of minimum wage as it was done (plus perhaps a further cut in the next few years if required) on the basis that:
1) it might save a few marginal jobs; and
2) it is part of a more general deflating of wage expectations and prices.

All wages are, to a greater or lesser extent, measured by comparison to the minimum wage. So now to be on twice the minimum wage I need to earn 15 instead of 17 per hour and so on. It also, together with social welfare cuts, puts pressure on prices in the shops. This can become a deflationary spiral, but unfortunately it is necessary because we do need to deflate our prices and regain competition.

3ndahalfof6

longhalloween wrote: »

Not to mention all the immigrants who took jobs which Irish people were too 'proud' to take, like working in fast food restaurants, cleaners and the like. Now they still have their jobs and we have nothing.

Fair dues to any immigrant who came over here and got a job and was competent and responsible enough to, not like Irish scroungers who'd prefer to take the dole than tell their friends they were workin in McDonalds.

I don't think you got it right here, those types of jobs were there well before any new humans relocated to Ireland,

and I know plenty of good decent Irish people who still provide the services you mention.

Most fast food vacancies are filled by students, and cleaning vacancies are filled by middle aged people or people retired from a previous occupation.

the positions you are talking about are pretty much part-time hrs.

Its the construction area which was hit hardest by the influx of new humans, we lost out because the greedy builders were able to pay them a lot less than the local guys.

So in summing up, greed was the winner once again.

Whiskeyjack

Average_Joe wrote: »

This is cos of those wnkers from europe again. They totally fcuked up this country. They sent those fcuking Poles over here and now that we dont have enough jobs they wont fcuk off home. The worse thing we ever did was give in to those pr1cks from dail eireann and vote yes to Lisbon. Things were grand before that went through.

Are you a troll?

beagle001

If anything we should be increasing the minimum wage to encourage people off welfare and give them a stimuli to actually go and work for that bit extra.
A lot of minimum wage jobs are physically demanding and despite what the hotel federation complain about paying Sunday premium extra it actually rarely happens and the law is not strongly enforced.
Unfortunately in Ireland 2011 the employer knows that the employees are in a tight situation with the short availability of jobs and are continually exploiting every situation which in turn they will continue to do with this new reduction.
A smarter approach would have been to raise it to 10.50 an hour and everybody pay a certain amount of tax,as the employer has too many avenues to hide their profits.
A system similar to the Australian model would work far better with a tax refund each year depending on individual circumstances and generating extra money into the real economy.
I agree with a lot of the above on certain issues,upward rents need to be scrapped,bureaucracy,insurance ,rates all need to come down first.
We are just marginalising a section of the population and it will encourage people to cut all spending.
It will not bring down rents,prices in shops as the fianna failures have stated,the lobby groups pushed for it not for the benefit of the wider economy but for ibec and its members solely.
I hope Fianna Gael actually do reverse this cut and until real change in prices happen it makes no sense.
Public sector need a complete overhall,private charges and rates first but this will take decades as the system of over charging is set in the blood of the Irish unfortunately.

not yet

FreudianSlippers wrote: »

I never understand this argument. It makes it seem like people are forced to work for the minimum wage...

plus AFAIK, you don't pay any tax if you're on minimum wage.

You need to read up on sh1t my friend..

Dale Parish

beagle001 wrote: »

If anything we should be increasing the minimum wage to encourage people off welfare

The same can be done by reducing/removing welfare; Try to decrease costs, not increase them....

beagle001

An overhall off welfare is needed,genuine people need it and others just scam it.
This is not a debate about welfare and I do not want to drag the thread of topic,until real change happens to the entire economy welfare cannot be reduced by too much,it is not easy surviving on that amount.
It will take years to properly curb this and many abuses will continue in welfare but this is the flawed system that was designed and we need to look to other models to change it.
Right now the idiotic proposed cut in the min wage encourages people to stay on welfare and claim rent allowance etc.

FreudianSlippers

not yet wrote: »

You need to read up on sh1t my friend..

Why don't you post a constructive comment as to what you're on about instead of some vague ridiculous nonsense post?

I literally have no idea what point you're trying to make.

Dale Parish

beagle001 wrote: »

until real change happens to the entire economy

This is done by a) reducing/scrapping the minimum wage in order to allow struggling employers expand their business and b) reducing welfare in order to encourage people to work again. The ethic isn't there because people can live on welfare.

welfare cannot be reduced by too much

Why not?

beagle001

Welfare cannot be reduced by too much because this country is too expensive right now,unless you want an increase in crime and poverty.
The minimum wage being reduced(proposed) will not affect anything in the real economy except the people who are on it will be in even deeper financial trouble.
If you think that a mass change will happen because of this then you A. have not lived in Ireland long enough or B. still believe the fianna fail mantra.
This needs to start at the top and work down in any fair and just society this is the case but in Ireland if you are in the hire elite you can sit cosy

the_barfly1

ei.sdraob wrote: »

Its not just the minimum wage thats the issue

but various min wage agreements in various sectors set above the min wage, such as catering and construction

we often hear people asking why is there no stimulus in road building for example, at ~15 euro or so an hour min the stimulus money wont go far!

I think its safe to say a large amount of construction companies are not honouring the JLC set rates for hourly wages. I was working for a company until xmas who paid well below the rate and anybody who wasn't happy with that were very swiftly dismissed and replaced.

later12

the_barfly1 wrote: »

I think its safe to say a large amount of construction companies are not honouring the JLC set rates for hourly wages. I was working for a company until xmas who paid well below the rate and anybody who wasn't happy with that were very swiftly dismissed and replaced.

The thing is there are some jobs that are simply not worth €7,65/ hr. Anecdotally one hears of lots of businesses who would be willing to take on staff at lower rates to do some menial sort of tasks but find the current rate too prohibitive to do so. Would you pay that rate for some young lad to stack shelves? Many employers would rather to it themselves than go to that expense.

Social welfare and the minimum wage need to be brought about to enforce a lower wage culture more generally. However, this would be far, far too unpopular for a labour coalition to ever consider.

Amhran Nua

GCU Flexible Demeanour wrote: »

I'm afraid I don't think your analysis stacks up, for a couple of reasons.

The main one is that the fact that only a few people on the minimum wage, and a massive amount unemployed, is actually evidence that its too high.

No, it's evidence that a lot of people were invested to the back teeth in the property market, and when that collapsed they lost their jobs. By your metric we should have been facing steadily rising unemployment as both the dole and the minimum wage increased, when in fact the opposite effect was observed.

Correlation is not causation.

Amhran Nua

later10 wrote: »

Social welfare and the minimum wage need to be brought about to enforce a lower wage culture more generally. However, this would be far, far too unpopular for a labour coalition to ever consider.

Plus it would be economically unwise. What's good for business does not always equate to what's good for an economy, no more than the exchequer is the economy. You need people to spend, and they aren't spending if you cut their wages. There is a balance to be found of course, but you won't find it by using Chinese wages as a role model.

later12

Amhran Nua wrote: »

Plus it would be economically unwise. What's good for business does not always equate to what's good for an economy, no more than the exchequer is the economy. You need people to spend, and they aren't spending if you cut their wages. There is a balance to be found of course, but you won't find it by using Chinese wages as a role model.

Yes but you don't encourage spending by throwing expensively borrowed money at the masses.

In the ideal world (far far away from Ireland) one encourages a healthy economy by restraining wages, improving competitiveness and thereby enhancing the attraction of a jurisdiction as a place to do business. This in turn generates wealth in a non interventionist way.

It is far, far preferable to the public donating huge sums to the state who borrow at extraordinary rates to throw the money back to the public in some sort of half arsed pyramid scheme.