Is a public/Civil servant vote for Fine Gael like a turkey voting for Christmas?

NotInventedHere

As in the thread title, is it in a public servants best interest for them to vote Fine Gael when it is their stated policy to seek huge reductions in Civil and Public Service numbers up to an including involuntary redundancies?

RobbieTheRobber

Why?

Bottle_of_Smoke

Its gonna be the policy of the next government no matter who they are.

kit3

NotInventedHere wrote: »

As in the thread title, is it in a public servants best interest for them to vote Fine Gael when it is their stated policy to seek huge reductions in Civil and Public Service numbers up to an including involuntary redundancies?

Was wondering about this one myself. There's no way they'll reduce the numbers by 3000 just by 'natural wastage' as they have said. Question is, how will they do it ?

Mountjoy Mugger

Early retirement incentives.

kit3

Mountjoy Mugger wrote: »

Early retirement incentives.

You could be right although that didn't work for the HSE before Christmas.

kippy

Nope.
Civil and Public servants need to realise that trying to protect their status (as it currently stands, is extremely counter productive. What is going to happen, maybe not now but in a year or so, if the current terms of CS/PS remains is that the country goes bust - no one gets paid.
So either everyone takes another cut across the board (perhaps a higher percentage at the top) or there are voluntary/compulsory redundancies.

No matter who comes in the Croke Park agreement is going to have to be scrapped as the savings that were sought will not be forthcoming-not enough savings anyway.

The whole thing needs a massive overhaul. There are way too many staff involved at management/middle management level, these people dont have any direct impact on the quality of service to the public and I have found in general, some of these people are the most useless people at their jobs that I have ever met. They've only ever been in the PS, generally for 15 years + and are very "closed" in their thinking. If something has always been done this way, then their attitude is thats the best way for doing it - absolutely ridiculous.

In recent years a lot of focus has been removed from the public service. No longer is the service to the public key, manangers, middle management are more worried about increasing their little worlds - more staff, more responsibility without actually seeing what the benefit to the public is. All of this has to change before any savings will happen.

We really have a very tough problem in the public services and ones which will take some time to resolve - however once clear principles are defined or redefined (eg PUBLIC SERVICE - SERVE THE PUBLIC - SPEND THE MONEY, CHANGE THE PROCESS IF THE PUBLIC WILL GET AND INCREASE IN SERVICE) and these principles come from the top down, things will change for the better.


Sorry, mini rant.
Back to semi on point - what you are saying is that if public servants vote for FF it is like turkeys voting for christmas. I would put to you that no matter who ANYONE votes for and no matter what their circumstances, the party they vote for WILL have a negative effect on their life. Thats sadly the situation we find ourselves in - with at least 4-5 more years (if we are lucky) of income cuts ahead.

Riskymove

kit3 wrote: »

Was wondering about this one myself. There's no way they'll reduce the numbers by 3000 just by 'natural wastage' as they have said. Question is, how will they do it ?

30,000


of course you could do it by natural wastage and vol redundancy, but it all depends on the timeframe

As in the thread title, is it in a public servants best interest for them to vote Fine Gael when it is their stated policy to seek huge reductions in Civil and Public Service numbers up to an including involuntary redundancies?

some public servants want to see reform too you know!!

I have no issue with a lot of their proposals...closing a lot of quangos, reducing overall numbers etc

however, the devil will be in the detail

cavedave

There are obvious practical difficulties of running meleagrine elections. and very few midwinter festivals are decided democratically. But Christmas has to be the best thing that has ever happened to turkeys.

The best way to ensure your species survival is to be really tasty. There are far more cows and chickens then aardvarks and corncrakes. Without Christmas we would have no reason to have such large numbers of turkeys. People don't keep skunks because they serve no useful purpose. Numbers of turkeys would be vastly reduced if only wild turkeys survived and they were not farmed for food their numbers would be orders of magnitude less.

Of course there is the question of whether it is a good idea for turkeys to put all their eggs in one basket Christmas wise. They have intelligently diversified in the American market into Thanksgiving. Some sort of Summer festival in Asia would be where they should concentrate their marketing on next I would think.

So I would argue turkeys should vote for Christmas

cancercowboy

Is a public/Civil servant vote for Fine Gael like a turkey voting for Christmas?

Yes. Fine Gael are going to make massive cuts. Lowering wages in the Public and Civil services, demanding efficiency, eliminating quangos, for once many Public and Civil servants actually have to work if they want to stay employed. I love it when they say "work to rule" as if they were working at a blazing pace before that. We will cut out the administrative fat and the leeches who bleed our exchequer dry.

We'll get rid of the HSE and run our universal health care system from the Department of Health, like it should be. We'll clear down the waiting lists using micromanagement and funding a one time blitzkrieg to clear down that waiting list like they did in Northern Ireland.

Social Services (welfare, housing allowance, other entitlements) will be combined and ran from one organsiation. You walk and you get all your entitlements in one place thus elimanting the need for all this fragmentation.

We'll make massive savings that we will reinvest into job creation, our infrastructure and front line services (Doctors, Nurses, Police, Firemen)

Semi states that are not profitable will be sold off, but responsibly. Semi-states that are profitable will be kept and made more profitable. Did you know Irish Rail has NEVER turned a profit?

I worked in a semi-state, I have seen the abject laziness, waste, nepotism and this ridiculous sense of entitlement. Our Public and Civil services need massive reform. Frankly, for the survival of the state this needs to happen. In Irish Rail, I knew a man who's sole job was to go collect a news paper once day. After that he had lunch for two hours and then sat on his backside until 16:30... everyday. One day I had to go work on his computer because he had a virus. I was full to the gills with porn. When I reported it I got in trouble for "making trouble".

Mountjoy Mugger

Nothing like a party political broadcast. TY, cancercowboy.

One right wing party goes, another waiting to get in.

Hector Mildew

Mountjoy Mugger wrote: »

Nothing like a party political broadcast. TY, cancercowboy.

One right wing party goes, another waiting to get in.

Fianna Fail right wing? They're the party that ballooned he public sector and agreed to benchmarking with little in return!

Firetrap

They must reckon there are more anti public service people out there than public servants. Which is true.

56lcd

who are the public servants that they are going to make redundant?
are they nurses, garda, firemen, council workers that grit the roads.
the public sector has become the scapegoat for fianna fail's wrong doings ... i am self employed in the private sector but i don't want anymore private hospitals that are ran for profit like Lee's cross

shofukan

cancercowboy wrote: »

Semi states that are not profitable will be sold off, but responsibly. Semi-states that are profitable will be kept and made more profitable. Did you know Irish Rail has NEVER turned a profit?

How about this right..
Instead of selling of to make a mediocre one time profit..
We sort the non profit making ones out and get constant returns so the ****ing thing will pay for itself!!
That seems to make sense to me.. But obviously, as this is Ireland we can't do anything that'd make sense can we?

EricPraline

NotInventedHere wrote: »

As in the thread title, is it in a public servants best interest for them to vote Fine Gael when it is their stated policy to seek huge reductions in Civil and Public Service numbers up to an including involuntary redundancies?

I'd be more concerned about voting for a party/independent/alliance of independents who claims that they'll be able to avert huge reductions in Civil and Public Service numbers, when our budget deficit suggests that this is an impossibility.

A significant part of our downfall has been a government who has pandered to populism and short-term gain, at the expense of taking a long term view. I don't see how we'd benefit from voting in a government of a different hue with a similar mindset.

Gunmonkey

56lcd wrote: »

who are the public servants that they are going to make redundant?
are they nurses, garda, firemen, council workers that grit the roads.
the public sector has become the scapegoat for fianna fail's wrong doings ... i am self employed in the private sector but i don't want anymore private hospitals that are ran for profit like Lee's cross

And Im sure nobody here would want those Public Sector workers sacked: and judging by the mess our hospitals are in, the amount of crap that carries on in some of the more crime plauged areas of the country and the general balls up during the past 2 winters we could do with a few more.

The workers we need to trim are those that work in the offices and the beuraucracy of the Public Sector that serve no real purpose other than to bloat out the wage packets.

But unfortunately, theres a large chance it wont happen since if Fine Gael do get into power, all it will take is one call to liveline with phrases like:

"I cant afford to lose me job, I got kids ta feed and a house to pay off."
"How am I meant to pay for my children to go to school if the goverment are firing us left right and centre."
"Ive been working there for 15 years and now this, its scandalous Joe."
"We help the sick in the hospitals/ kids in the schools. And those are the most vulnerable* people in the State. All that money they spent on the banks and its us the most vulnerable that have to feel the brunt. hows that fair Joe"

*since every debate in politics seems to boild down to whos the "most veulnerable" in the country.

[Jackass]

FG are going to fix the civil service, for the massive waste of resources it is and employing the unemployable and to make it efficient and to expect from it's employees just a fraction of what's expected from employees in the private sector.

But don't worry if you're in the union, the country crumbling wont stop you from striking in your droves and getting what you want. Hopefully they'll be able to cull a good chunk of the pointless civil service, most of whom (I reservedly estimate that 50% of all civil service employees could be done with out, 90% of them in administrative roles, as long as expectations from the employer were on a par of that in the private sector and productivity matched) are of more value to the state doing nothing and being paid the dole than doing nothing for 60,000 per year.

It'll be an unpopular decision and big redundencies will have to be paid out, and it will free up a lot of funds, which will be of great use to the FF Government after the incumbant Government when they boast job creation by just filling up the civil service again and not caring about the cancerous effects it has to the nation, because it makes them look good, and no one is interested in giving you back handers if you're not in office, so do whatever it takes!!

cancercowboy

Mountjoy Mugger wrote: »

Nothing like a party political broadcast. TY, cancercowboy.

One right wing party goes, another waiting to get in.

Ireland doesn't have a right wing party. We had one, they were called the Progressive Democrats.

Fine Gael is a centrist party. Full stop. A "right wing" party doesn't want Universal Healthcare. Fine gael are economically liberal and believe you can't tax your way out of a recession and want to spend IMF/EU bailout money on job creation.

cancercowboy

seanor3 wrote: »

How about this right..
Instead of selling of to make a mediocre one time profit..
We sort the non profit making ones out and get constant returns so the ****ing thing will pay for itself!!
That seems to make sense to me.. But obviously, as this is Ireland we can't do anything that'd make sense can we?

Sorry but many of them have never been profitiable or will be profitbale. Irish Rail is a great example... it's NEVER made a profit. Ever.

cancercowboy

56lcd wrote: »

who are the public servants that they are going to make redundant?
are they nurses, garda, firemen, council workers that grit the roads.
the public sector has become the scapegoat for fianna fail's wrong doings ... i am self employed in the private sector but i don't want anymore private hospitals that are ran for profit like Lee's cross

Voluntary redundancies.

No, not Doctors, nurses, or firemne. Frontline services will be better funded.

Hospitals won't be ran for profit, they will micromanaged to be efficent. Health Care will be universal under Fine Gael. Funded the same way it is funded now, it will just be better because we will demand it be ran smarter, more efficent, and improve the standard so no one needs private health insurance anymore.

Simply put we will cut the fat, and get much better value for money.

So there you go. :-)

Pete_Cavan

seanor3 wrote: »

cancercowboy wrote: »

Semi states that are not profitable will be sold off, but responsibly. Semi-states that are profitable will be kept and made more profitable. Did you know Irish Rail has NEVER turned a profit?

How about this right..
Instead of selling of to make a mediocre one time profit..
We sort the non profit making ones out and get constant returns so the ****ing thing will pay for itself!!
That seems to make sense to me.. But obviously, as this is Ireland we can't do anything that'd make sense can we?

FG's plan is not to sell off loss-making state owned companies like Irish Rail. We would get nothing for Irish Rail, private companies would only strip all the assets and close the company leaving us with no rail transport. The state has to retain and fund companies like this because there is no market for private companies to do so.

FG want to sell off companies like ESB, ESB PowerGen and Bord Gais. These are profitable companies but only because the government sets the market in such a way (through subsidies and levies), the net effect is they actually cost the taxpayer because we pay our electricity bills and they get money from the government (ie. your tax money). FGs plan is to sell these off, which gives the state that income (billions), and also eliminates the cost of funding these companies. The state has no business producing electricity and private companies would be able to do it a lot cheaper, therefore reducing your electricity bills. The best thing about it is we keep the national grid and the private companies pay us to use it so we still have an income but we dont have to spend a fortune building and maintaining power plants.

gandalf

Depends on what you want to hear as a Public Servant. Do you want a political party be honest like FG are and say they are going to be modernising the service and people will be losing jobs or do you want to be lied to by the other parties saying they won't and then one year down the line coming out with bull along the lines of "We do not want to make these cuts but the ECB/IMF are forcing us to".

If you are all honest you will admit there are areas of the Public Service that need reform and if reformed it will result in jobs being lost. I think that reform will help an awful lot of Front Line staff as well freeing up resources that they need to give the service that they want to give to the general public.

Idbatterim

Fg are not right wing. Its news to me that emigration and high unemployment is a good thing. And things will stay this way as long as the status quo remains, as long as we are uncompetitive and price ourselves out of the market, due to high welfare, all the Ps related problems, high pay, pensions, duplication of services etc.

galway2007

cancercowboy wrote: »

Yes. Fine Gael are going to make massive cuts. Lowering wages in the Public and Civil services, demanding efficiency, eliminating quangos, for once many Public and Civil servants actually have to work if they want to stay employed. I love it when they say "work to rule" as if they were working at a blazing pace before that. We will cut out the administrative fat and the leeches who bleed our exchequer dry.

We'll get rid of the HSE and run our universal health care system from the Department of Health, like it should be. We'll clear down the waiting lists using micromanagement and funding a one time blitzkrieg to clear down that waiting list like they did in Northern Ireland.

Social Services (welfare, housing allowance, other entitlements) will be combined and ran from one organsiation. You walk and you get all your entitlements in one place thus elimanting the need for all this fragmentation.

We'll make massive savings that we will reinvest into job creation, our infrastructure and front line services (Doctors, Nurses, Police, Firemen)

Semi states that are not profitable will be sold off, but responsibly. Semi-states that are profitable will be kept and made more profitable. Did you know Irish Rail has NEVER turned a profit?

I worked in a semi-state, I have seen the abject laziness, waste, nepotism and this ridiculous sense of entitlement. Our Public and Civil services need massive reform. Frankly, for the survival of the state this needs to happen. In Irish Rail, I knew a man who's sole job was to go collect a news paper once day. After that he had lunch for two hours and then sat on his backside until 16:30... everyday. One day I had to go work on his computer because he had a virus. I was full to the gills with porn. When I reported it I got in trouble for "making trouble".

Another fool falling for political bull****
Did you not fall for enof off bull**** under bertie???

RobbieTheRobber

[Jackass] wrote: »

FG are going to fix the civil service, for the massive waste of resources it is and employing the unemployable and to make it efficient and to expect from it's employees just a fraction of what's expected from employees in the private sector.

But don't worry if you're in the union, the country crumbling wont stop you from striking in your droves and getting what you want. Hopefully they'll be able to cull a good chunk of the pointless civil service, most of whom (I reservedly estimate that 50% of all civil service employees could be done with out, 90% of them in administrative roles, as long as expectations from the employer were on a par of that in the private sector and productivity matched) are of more value to the state doing nothing and being paid the dole than doing nothing for 60,000 per year.

It'll be an unpopular decision and big redundencies will have to be paid out, and it will free up a lot of funds, which will be of great use to the FF Government after the incumbant Government when they boast job creation by just filling up the civil service again and not caring about the cancerous effects it has to the nation, because it makes them look good, and no one is interested in giving you back handers if you're not in office, so do whatever it takes!!

What a complete crock of ****.

I work in IT so lets tackle this from how an IT person might be aware of wasted work hours!
In any of the surveys I have ever seen done on the amount of time wasted on social media sources whilst in work, they have always been conducted on private sector enterprises and those numbers would seriously put into doubt your estimation of the amount of work conducted in the private sector v the public sector.

Wasted work hours is not just a symptom of the public sector but bash away. :rolleyes:

Then again i guess we shouldnt ever dare let facts get in the way of a good rant!

RobbieTheRobber

gandalf wrote: »

Depends on what you want to hear as a Public Servant. Do you want a political party be honest like FG are and say they are going to be modernising the service and people will be losing jobs or do you want to be lied to by the other parties saying they won't and then one year down the line coming out with bull along the lines of "We do not want to make these cuts but the ECB/IMF are forcing us to".

If you are all honest you will admit there are areas of the Public Service that need reform and if reformed it will result in jobs being lost. I think that reform will help an awful lot of Front Line staff as well freeing up resources that they need to give the service that they want to give to the general public.

I think there is a good portion who want reform, but reform does not just come in slash the wages efforts, in fact very little real reform will come from that.

Is there the potential for reduction in numbers, probably if we had a strong willed government, not one that continued to push forward with decentralisation even when it couldnt get the numbers of staff needed to agree to move. (Did this lead to an increase in numbers?)

Should the structures change?
Those of us with qualifications in the PS yearn for that day!

Do i want a government to tell the truth?
I demand it! (probably wont happen though, not really the way of politics)

Ernest

Public Service Employees should not trust ANY of the parties- even Labour!
Eamonn Gilmour was the FIRST to signify approval in advance for the huge cuts in public sector pensions that were being proposed by the outgoing Government in the National Recovery Plan. Followed, a little later by Pat Rabbitte who did not dissent from the proposal. Fine Gael's Michael Noonan reluctantly agreed too with these pension cuts. The State Pension (which private sector workers get in addition to any private company pensions) was untouched as sacrosanct but pensions of public sector workers ( who do not get the State Pension) were reduced by up to 12% from from last month.
And of course FF and the Greens implemented these cuts.
So Public Sector Workers should not put their faith in the Labour Party or any of the parties in this election.

[Jackass]

RobbieTheRobber wrote: »

What a complete crock of ****.

I work in IT so lets tackle this from how an IT person might be aware of wasted work hours!
In any of the surveys I have ever seen done on the amount of time wasted on social media sources whilst in work, they have always been conducted on private sector enterprises and those numbers would seriously put into doubt your estimation of the amount of work conducted in the private sector v the public sector.

Wasted work hours is not just a symptom of the public sector but bash away. :rolleyes:

Then again i guess we shouldnt ever dare let facts get in the way of a good rant!

The Irish civil service is grossly over employed, with literally thousands of people doing jobs of zero value to the state, with literally hundreds of state organisations that are completely and utterly useless and not required, it's the talk in election of ridding the country of hundreds of these cancerous, useless organisations, which pump tens of millions out in wages each year to people who don't need it.

The problem also is, once people are in the civil service they're locked in to dependant on the state. It's near impossible to get rid of them, and FF in order to keep unemployment numbers down got as many people into the civil service as possible, and it's going to cost the next Government tens of millions in redundencies to get rid of all the dead wood, and the FF Government that comes into power after this Government will just fill it all back up again, essentially wasting the tens of millions used to fix the problem, but personal gain and looking good comes before the good of the country. That was my point.

I'm sure you're a civil service employee and I'm sure you're very important and work very hard, as many do, but don't try and compare the cozy civil service where reward is based on longevity rather than performance, thus having no incentive to perform and rather raise staffing numbers than actually be held accountable for a days work, to the private sector, where, and the IMF even said as much, half the civil service would be the first to go if this country was being run compitantly.

Privatisation is massively undervalued too with the amount of wastage that would be inherited. Any privatisation deal would be massively devalued as the first thing they would have to do when taking over would pay half the useless staff to leave.

gandalf

RobbieTheRobber wrote: »

I think there is a good portion who want reform, but reform does not just come in slash the wages efforts, in fact very little real reform will come from that.

I have dealt with the Public Sector quite a bit in one of my previous jobs and there are an awful lot of absolutely excellent and diligent people working in it. I have no doubt at all that they would welcome positive reforms that reward hard work, productivity and promotion based on performance & qualifications.

I also know from my dealings with the Public Service that there are an awful lot of people who are just making up numbers. People who will walk out at 4pm despite a job being half done when a similar person in our Corporate clients would stay until the job was done properly.

Is there the potential for reduction in numbers, probably if we had a strong willed government, not one that continued to push forward with decentralisation even when it couldnt get the numbers of staff needed to agree to move. (Did this lead to an increase in numbers?)

There is scope for reduction in numbers, especially in middle management probably by flattening the structure of some of the PS. The HSE is a prime example of an organisation that has to have the scalpel taken to the admin side of things. The Government will have to be very strong against the vested interests and I believe that a one party FG government would be the best option to do this cleanly.

Decentralisation was a disaster. I dealt with one contact in one of the major Government departments. He was absolutely excellent at his job and one of the best I had ever dealt with in that technical position anywhere. He decided to take up a decentralisation offer to a totally different job that had nothing to do with his competencies because it was closer to his home. His replacement rang me and we discussed all the products and services that we supplied them with for over half an hour. At the end of the phone call he paused and said "Thank you for explaining about all this stuff (computer related) I have no idea about any of it". I found out that he was given the position because he was next in line for that grade level. This kind of stuff is madness and needs to be stopped immediately. It must be so demoralising for people who do have the qualifications to fill technical positions.

erictheviking1

[Jackass] wrote: »

The Irish civil service is grossly over employed, with literally thousands of people doing jobs of zero value to the state, with literally hundreds of state organisations that are completely and utterly useless and not required, it's the talk in election of ridding the country of hundreds of these cancerous, useless organisations, which pump tens of millions out in wages each year to people who don't need it.

The problem also is, once people are in the civil service they're locked in to dependant on the state. It's near impossible to get rid of them, and FF in order to keep unemployment numbers down got as many people into the civil service as possible, and it's going to cost the next Government tens of millions in redundencies to get rid of all the dead wood, and the FF Government that comes into power after this Government will just fill it all back up again, essentially wasting the tens of millions used to fix the problem, but personal gain and looking good comes before the good of the country. That was my point.

I'm sure you're a civil service employee and I'm sure you're very important and work very hard, as many do, but don't try and compare the cozy civil service where reward is based on longevity rather than performance, thus having no incentive to perform and rather raise staffing numbers than actually be held accountable for a days work, to the private sector, where, and the IMF even said as much, half the civil service would be the first to go if this country was being run compitantly.

Privatisation is massively undervalued too with the amount of wastage that would be inherited. Any privatisation deal would be massively devalued as the first thing they would have to do when taking over would pay half the useless staff to leave.

only a student could come up with this rubbish! I'm getting a bit tired of people who don't work telling people who do work that they are useless etc.etc.
One thing for sure! FF did a fantastic job of dividing the people of the country.

[Jackass]

What makes you think I'm a student?

I spent over 7 years working during the boom time, in the financial sector believe it or not! So I'm not ammune to criticisim of my own industry, just like you shouldn't be.

I emmigrated and worked in Canada for a year and a half when jobs were going by the day, and I used my savings to live off and to try and better myself in another country rather than sit around on the dole scratching my ass when I was one of the lucky ones who had the oppertunity to get out, and yes, due to visa reasons and zero employment prospects, I am coming back to Ireland to further my studies in an area I'm well educated in - Economics... That is where my opinion of the civil service is formed.... education...and the realisation of what a crippling factor it has been on the Economy, once the money stopped flowing in, the civil service pay roll was the number one drain on Government liquidity, which the IMF vowed to repair, and makes paying for any bank bailout near on impossible, not that that's the civil services fault, the financial industry is a whole other kettle of fish for fu*k ups... but at least I'm not going to sugar coat it, having been a part of it.

mewso

gandalf wrote: »

Depends on what you want to hear as a Public Servant. Do you want a political party be honest like FG are and say they are going to be modernising the service and people will be losing jobs or do you want to be lied to by the other parties saying they won't and then one year down the line coming out with bull along the lines of "We do not want to make these cuts but the ECB/IMF are forcing us to".

If you are all honest you will admit there are areas of the Public Service that need reform and if reformed it will result in jobs being lost. I think that reform will help an awful lot of Front Line staff as well freeing up resources that they need to give the service that they want to give to the general public.

I'm a public servant and I would welcome well thought out and properly planned reform but instead of an election promise that will almost inevitably result in some tracking back down the line and instead of assuming that FG are being honest when they latch on to what their PR team has as the top most things Irish people want to see done I would love to see Politicians talk about bringing in experts or consulting with country's with the best Public Services we know of to help us to send the Public Service in the right direction.

What we have is:-

The Labour Party promising no reform presumably because they would fear the clash with the Unions - dissappointing.
FG promising to remove 30,000 people - unrealistic and not properly thought out. Probably based on popular opinion moreso than realism like a lot of their proposals which sound good on paper.

What we will probably get:-

Voluntary redundancy and early reitirement packages with a short fall in take up and no attempt to properly reform the Public Service at all.

Pete_Cavan

mewso wrote: »

What we will probably get:-

Voluntary redundancy and early reitirement packages with a short fall in take up and no attempt to properly reform the Public Service at all.

In fairness, the public sector had a chance to actively participate in proper reform of the Public Service in the negotiation of the Croke Park Agreement but the unions took a hard line and opposed changes. Im not saying this is a good enough reason to take a slash and burn approach but the public service did have a chance to bring about real reform but rejected it in favour of short term self preservation. If you ask me, the turkeys have already voted for Christmas by the public service not being more reasonable in the CPA negotiations.

RobbieTheRobber

[Jackass] wrote: »

The Irish civil service is grossly over employed, with literally thousands of people doing jobs of zero value to the state, with literally hundreds of state organisations that are completely and utterly useless and not required, it's the talk in election of ridding the country of hundreds of these cancerous, useless organisations, which pump tens of millions out in wages each year to people who don't need it.

The problem also is, once people are in the civil service they're locked in to dependant on the state. It's near impossible to get rid of them, and FF in order to keep unemployment numbers down got as many people into the civil service as possible, and it's going to cost the next Government tens of millions in redundencies to get rid of all the dead wood, and the FF Government that comes into power after this Government will just fill it all back up again, essentially wasting the tens of millions used to fix the problem, but personal gain and looking good comes before the good of the country. That was my point.

I'm sure you're a civil service employee and I'm sure you're very important and work very hard, as many do, but don't try and compare the cozy civil service where reward is based on longevity rather than performance, thus having no incentive to perform and rather raise staffing numbers than actually be held accountable for a days work, to the private sector, where, and the IMF even said as much, half the civil service would be the first to go if this country was being run compitantly.

Privatisation is massively undervalued too with the amount of wastage that would be inherited. Any privatisation deal would be massively devalued as the first thing they would have to do when taking over would pay half the useless staff to leave.

Im not even reading your reply becasue you havent responded to the fact the i dispute your claims about wastage of hours and I can at the drop of a hat produce surveys which say waste occurs in the private sector. You have simply ignored this and began yabbering about some other point.

You made a stupid generalisation about work practises with possibly zero understanding of the public service, in fact no one person could have a full understanding of an organisation of over 300,000.

Wait you still claim this ability, so what makes you so qualified to be able to judge work practises acorss a 300,000 strong workforce and make claims with no basis?

I have verifiable claims which can be backed up by independant surveys i also have the ability to monitor my own systems to see such abuses yet i know in my own organisation we do not allow the potential for these wastages to occur.

so tell me what makes you better than industry survey, which tell me wastages occur in the private sector yet you seem to think the only wastages are in the public sector?

RobbieTheRobber

gandalf wrote: »

I have dealt with the Public Sector quite a bit in one of my previous jobs and there are an awful lot of absolutely excellent and diligent people working in it. I have no doubt at all that they would welcome positive reforms that reward hard work, productivity and promotion based on performance & qualifications.

I also know from my dealings with the Public Service that there are an awful lot of people who are just making up numbers. People who will walk out at 4pm despite a job being half done when a similar person in our Corporate clients would stay until the job was done properly.



There is scope for reduction in numbers, especially in middle management probably by flattening the structure of some of the PS. The HSE is a prime example of an organisation that has to have the scalpel taken to the admin side of things. The Government will have to be very strong against the vested interests and I believe that a one party FG government would be the best option to do this cleanly.

Decentralisation was a disaster. I dealt with one contact in one of the major Government departments. He was absolutely excellent at his job and one of the best I had ever dealt with in that technical position anywhere. He decided to take up a decentralisation offer to a totally different job that had nothing to do with his competencies because it was closer to his home. His replacement rang me and we discussed all the products and services that we supplied them with for over half an hour. At the end of the phone call he paused and said "Thank you for explaining about all this stuff (computer related) I have no idea about any of it". I found out that he was given the position because he was next in line for that grade level. This kind of stuff is madness and needs to be stopped immediately. It must be so demoralising for people who do have the qualifications to fill technical positions.

Indeed it is and, it is undisputable that there is a deluge of middle management, however it must be pointed out this not a failure of the staff but of the most senior managenment that allowed this bloat to occur.
That then furthered the probelm for potical means (Cycnical vote winning exercises prior to the 2007 election when departments still tried to move, minister driven decisions i might add. FF, these seem minsters then authorised promotions to entice staff to move to departments in ballygobackwards.)

I will agree there is a lack of specialism in many areas and there was elements of the CPA meant to address that.

I can assure you of one thing though while there is a lack of specialism now in some areas a slash and burn exercise on wages will not rid the PS of those that "will walk out at 4pm despite a job being half done".
No quite the opposite these people will remain and anyone who can specialise will walk out the door and join the thousands who are fleeing the nation for better returns.

The only way is through reform and unfortunately sucsessive governments have allowed the Ps to grow to the monster it is and no organisation of the size of the PS can be reformed overnight!

RobbieTheRobber

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

In fairness, the public sector had a chance to actively participate in proper reform of the Public Service in the negotiation of the Croke Park Agreement but the unions took a hard line and opposed changes. Im not saying this is a good enough reason to take a slash and burn approach but the public service did have a chance to bring about real reform but rejected it in favour of short term self preservation. If you ask me, the turkeys have already voted for Christmas by the public service not being more reasonable in the CPA negotiations.

You know what gets me most is thinly veiled abuse in posts such as this when posters such as yourself try to deride fellow irish people as animals.

In a call to godwin i remember when another people tried to do very similiar things to a group within their society, am i saying its the same, no.
What I am saying is words like yours show a determination to scapegoat someone rather than to discuss an issue with reason.

bonkey

galway2007 wrote: »

Another fool ...

erictheviking1 wrote: »

only a student ...

Folks...lets be careful about crossing the line between disagreeing with what each other is saying and making personal remarks.

NotInventedHere

Following the back and forth on this subject, something that comes to mind is the lack of detail regarding the political party plans on public service reform. Leaving out the obvious cutting of jubs and slashing wages. Any policymakers worth their salt should know that things are rarely as simple or as black and white as they are portraying in the media at the moment.

Also massive Public job cuts in the UK don't seem to be having the expected effect and many conservative think tanks are asking for a readjustment.

horse7

you know i lot of government workers would not be entitled to the dole.

RobbieTheRobber

NotInventedHere wrote: »

Following the back and forth on this subject, something that comes to mind is the lack of detail regarding the political party plans on public service reform. Leaving out the obvious cutting of jubs and slashing wages. Any policymakers worth their salt should know that things are rarely as simple or as black and white as they are portraying in the media at the moment.

Also massive Public job cuts in the UK don't seem to be having the expected effect and many conservative think tanks are asking for a readjustment.

The conservative government never pushed ahead with massive cuts, they may have billed it as such prior to the election but once in power it became clear their methods for reduction in numbers was to be the irish model of natural wastage.

The idea of simply culling whole departments is while a wonderful idea not that pratical when one considers all of the red tape that has been implemented to make government departments and bodies more accountable.

RobbieTheRobber

horse7 wrote: »

you know i lot of government workers would not be entitled to the dole.

Why would they be entitled if they work?

kippy

horse7 wrote: »

you know i lot of government workers would not be entitled to the dole.

Those in before '95 would, wouldnt qualifiy for JB, but they would get JA, or the other way around.

RobbieTheRobber

kippy wrote: »

Those in before '95 would, wouldnt qualifiy for JB, but they would get JA, or the other way around.

Peopoe who work for the government can claim the dole?

kippy

RobbieTheRobber wrote: »

Peopoe who work for the government can claim the dole?

Are you being pedantic?
The poster was making the point that if goverment/public/civil servants were made redundant they would not be able to claim the benefit broadly know as the "dole".
I attempted to clarify this for people who may not understand the reasoning for this - without going into too much detail.

dsmythy

kippy wrote: »

Those in before '95 would, wouldnt qualifiy for JB, but they would get JA, or the other way around.

Well if their financial situation requires the full rate of JA then they'll be grand anyway.