Arab Military Forces

Corsendonk

The recent problems in Egypt highlighted the amount of military spending that some of the richer or larger Arab nations have at their disposal. So pound for pound which Arab nation has the best army? Saudi Arabia of course has the very latest toys but do they have the necessary combat experience, command structure etc that sets them above their Arab brothers.

Victor

The problem with a lot of Arab forces is that individual soldiers have basic skills, they aren't very well developed. Skills tend to be hoarded by officers and senior NCOs. However, in most operations, a soldier with a rifle, within a command structure is more powerful than someone without a rifle and a command structure. Several forces suffer from having lots of sophisticated equipment, but nobody to operate or maintain them to a standard that would be comparable to say NATO.

In the Saudi case, the Saudi Arabian National Guard, drawn strongly from the extended Saud family and is considered a regime-protection force, is considered to be much better skilled than the army, although it may not have the same level of heavy equipment.

Likewise, in Iraq under Saddam, all the best soldiers and equipment were in certain core groups, again as regime-protection forces.

xflyer

In the Arab Israeli wars the Israelis respected the Jordanian and Egyptians the most. No reason to think any different now. Egypt it has to be assumed hasn't gone backwards with a lot of American equipment and training.

I was actually surprised to see the M1 Abrams on the streets on TV coverage lately. Never realised the Egyptians had them. But I notice they still have M60s and what looked like a T62?

CaseyRyback

xflyer wrote: »

I was actually surprised to see the M1 Abrams on the streets on TV coverage lately.

Lot of their kit is American. Massive amount of money spent on US weapon systems over the last few years in Egypt. Ironic if it subsequently winds up at the disposal of an Islamic Brotherhood administration.

Corsendonk

xflyer wrote: »

In the Arab Israeli wars the Israelis respected the Jordanian and Egyptians the most. No reason to think any different now. Egypt it has to be assumed hasn't gone backwards with a lot of American equipment and training.

I was actually surprised to see the M1 Abrams on the streets on TV coverage lately. Never realised the Egyptians had them. But I notice they still have M60s and what looked like a T62?

Wikipedia Lists

M1 Abrams 1005
M60 Patton 1435
T62 550(500 moth Balled)
T54/55 500
Rameses II 260

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modern_equipment_of_the_Egyptian_Army

Manic Moran

xflyer wrote: »

I was actually surprised to see the M1 Abrams on the streets on TV coverage lately. Never realised the Egyptians had them.

Not only do they have them, they put them together locally in Helwan, near Cairo.

NTM

BrianD

Not just assembly. They manufacture over 40% of components. Egypt like Iran have their military industrial sector.

savagecabbages

How does their quality of manufacture hold up to western standards?

One would assume their ammunition is home-grown too, this was a particularly deficient area for the Iraqi forces with their home-produced shells lacking armor penetrating ability i wonder if the Egyptians are keeping on top of this??

Still and all its a mightily impressive arsenal they seem to have amassed rather quietly over the past 20-30 years including an impressive air force full of f-16s and Longbow Apaches to mention but a few toys:eek:

BrianD

Egypt can only deploy its army into the Sinai by agreement with Israel and I'm sure that the Israelis must be concerned that Egyptian kit is on a par with theirs. Having said that it was always tactics that kept the Israelis ahead.

One assumes that the US was keen to arm Egypt as it's a neighbour of Libya. Who's the threat these days? Still Libya or Sudan to the south. They do have a border dispute with Sudan (Hala'ib triangle) but Sudan withdrew militarily from the area in recent years.

BrianD

Of course the other thing is. Given the unrest in Egypt, is there any logic in deploying Main Battle Tanks onto the streets. Sure they give a suggestion of authority which has been universally ignored by both sides.

Victor

Note that Egypt is as populous as Germany and twice the size - it isn't a small country.

savagecabbages wrote: »

How does their quality of manufacture hold up to western standards?

They don't have the DU ammunition and armour that the Americans and Israelis have.

One would assume their ammunition is home-grown too, this was a particularly deficient area for the Iraqi forces with their home-produced shells lacking armor penetrating ability i wonder if the Egyptians are keeping on top of this??

Most of the problems for the Iraqis were (a) they had negligible imports in the 1990-2004 era (b) much of their equipment in the 1980s was second hand from Egypt and dated from 1973 or earlier, which while generally good (SAMs and ATGMs in particular proved their worth) and couldn't compete with up to date front-line American equipment of the 1991-2003 era.

Still and all its a mightily impressive arsenal they seem to have amassed rather quietly over the past 20-30 years including an impressive air force full of f-16s and Longbow Apaches to mention but a few toys:eek:

But is an Egyptian F-16 as good as a NATO one?

Dogwatch

Victor wrote: »

But is an Egyptian F-16 as good as a NATO one?

Probably but the real question is: Are their pilots as competent as NATO pilots?

savagecabbages

Exactly, these forces may look good on paper, but one wonders if the quality of equipment and training/command structures are on par with another force of equal strength.

Victor

Dogwatch wrote: »

Probably but the real question is: Are their pilots as competent as NATO pilots?

Also relevant is that Egypt doesn't appear to have AMRAAM. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AIM-120_AMRAAM#Operators

Corsendonk

So are we saying then that Egypt has the top Arab Military force?

Manic Moran

So are we saying then that Egypt has the top Arab Military force?

Pound for pound, Jordan.

In terms of sheer capability, Egypt.

Old article, but quite valid today, entitled "Why Arabs Lose Wars"

http://www.meforum.org/441/why-arabs-lose-wars

NTM

InReality

^ very good article.

I thought Saudi Arabia spent a fortune on Arms after the 1st Gulf War ..

OS119

InReality wrote: »

..I thought Saudi Arabia spent a fortune on Arms after the 1st Gulf War ..

they did - and still do.

however while flying/driving/shooting shiny and very expensive bits of kit is high on their list of national passions, maintaining them isn't. pretty much all their maintainance is carried out by UK/US/European civil contractors - they can do the tactical stuff like change tracks or a gun barrel on a tank, but the deep stuff they leave to others.

some of the open source stuff i've read suggests they'd struggle to put 14 F-15's (they have well over 100) in the air a week after the contractors left...

xflyer

Unlike the Iranians, who managed to keep F14s and F4 going long after they lost all support from the Americans.

But of course the Iranians are not like Arabs. Something you quickly find out when you meet and work with them.

Victor

xflyer wrote: »

Unlike the Iranians, who managed to keep F14s and F4 going long after they lost all support from the Americans.

But of course the Iranians are not like Arabs. Something you quickly find out when you meet and work with them.

The difference being that Iran developed an industrial base to support their military and then the revolution and the Iran-Iraq war changed any "I don't want to get my hands dirty" attitudes.

Raging_Ninja

I think you're missing the point that Iranians aren't Arabic.

Victor

Raging_Ninja wrote: »

I think you're missing the point that Iranians aren't Arabic.

I'm perfectly aware of that.