iPhone DMD's

IITYWYBMAD · 01-02-2011 3:26pm #1

Can somebody clarify for once and all, whether iPhone apps allowed to be used as distance measuring devices in clubs where there is a local rule allowing DMD's? My feeling is that they are against the exemption the GUI allowed.

strokes1 · 01-02-2011 3:30pm

Informed by the club pro at the weekend that as they have a compass (that can not be deleted!) on them that they are illegal.

see also R&A rules

http://www.randa.org/RandA/News/News/2010/August/Joint-Statement-on-Electronic-Devices.aspx

IITYWYBMAD · 01-02-2011 3:59pm

strokes1 wrote: »

Informed by the club pro at the weekend that as they have a compass (that can not be deleted!) on them that they are illegal.

see also R&A rules

http://www.randa.org/RandA/News/News/2010/August/Joint-Statement-on-Electronic-Devices.aspx

Thanks, exactly as I thought, so to clarify iPhone apps are not allowed as a legitimate DMD irrespective of the local rule in play.

ryaner777 · 01-02-2011 7:29pm

Can I ask how a compass might help improve your game ? I can understand if they have other features such as wind speed and direction indicators but a compass ?

maybe I'm missing something really obvious and if so i apologise.

Obni · 01-02-2011 11:42pm

It certainly seems like the iPhone is ruled out, but that would make this offer rather odd...
http://itunes.apple.com/gb/app/rules-of-golf/id380881843?mt=8

Fore Iron · 02-02-2011 12:31am

ryaner777 wrote: »

Can I ask how a compass might help improve your game ? I can understand if they have other features such as wind speed and direction indicators but a compass ?

maybe I'm missing something really obvious and if so i apologise.

You know the wind is westerly, but you don't know which way the hole your on points and the tee box is sheltered so you can't feel the wind where you are. You could use the compass to figure out which way you are pointing and tell what the wind will do to your tee shot.

There are plenty of other examples I could give but I'm sure you get the gist!!

Osgoodisgood · 02-02-2011 8:10am

Fore Iron wrote: »

You know the wind is westerly, but you don't know which way the hole your on points and the tee box is sheltered so you can't feel the wind where you are. You could use the compass to figure out which way you are pointing and tell what the wind will do to your tee shot.

There are plenty of other examples I could give but I'm sure you get the gist!!

People actually do stuff like that? Really?

IITYWYBMAD · 02-02-2011 10:28am

Osgoodisgood wrote: »

People actually do stuff like that? Really?

What do you think caddies are for? This is exactly the type of information they would supply.

MacGyver · 02-02-2011 10:35am

what about the older iphones with no compass built in ?

Osgoodisgood · 02-02-2011 10:36am

IITYWYBMAD wrote: »

What do you think caddies are for? This is exactly the type of information they would supply.

If I were a pro I'd expect my caddie to tell me which way the wind is blowing. I'd also be able to look at the trees/flags etc for myself and I'd probably remember the direction from the hole before. But that wasn't really my point. My point was wondering whether anyone looks at a compass on a golf course!

IITYWYBMAD · 02-02-2011 11:03am

MacGyver wrote: »

what about the older iphones with no compass built in ?

From GUI:It should be noted that any such Local Rule must prohibit the use of a distance measuring device that is capable of gauging or measuring other conditions that might affect play, even if such a function is not used.

It appears that if the device is capable of telling the wind direction, or any other aid, it is still illegal to use, irrespective of whether the software is installed or not...

thegen · 02-02-2011 11:12am

I use the Gamebook app with a lot of lads in my club. I had to get a ruling from the GUI with regards to using it and they OK'd it.

So the use of an iphone on the course is OK under certain circumstances.

IITYWYBMAD · 02-02-2011 11:23am

thegen wrote: »

I use the Gamebook app with a lot of lads in my club. I had to get a ruling from the GUI with regards to using it and they OK'd it.

So the use of an iphone on the course is OK under certain circumstances.

Well this seems to go totally in face of what the GUI are saying themselves, hpw did you get that ruling? Did you just ring them up?

greyc · 02-02-2011 12:06pm

Perhaps I'm reading the USGA/R&A rules wrong, but i don't see where it says anything about a compass or wind direction. It mentions wind speed and gradient, surely these wouldn't be found on a compass.

thegen · 02-02-2011 12:24pm

IITYWYBMAD wrote: »

Well this seems to go totally in face of what the GUI are saying themselves, hpw did you get that ruling? Did you just ring them up?

No one of our members is a course rater with the GUI. He was adamant that it was not allowed on the course, more to do with sharing your score with a different group.

He raised the question within the GUI and they gave it the thumbs up.

So as far as I'm concerned an iphone is allowed on the course.

Good_Mon! · 02-02-2011 1:25pm

Don't have an iphone to bring out on the course myself - but this thread does remind me of:

IITYWYBMAD · 03-02-2011 9:30am

greyc wrote: »

Perhaps I'm reading the USGA/R&A rules wrong, but i don't see where it says anything about a compass or wind direction. It mentions wind speed and gradient, surely these wouldn't be found on a compass.

I've highlighted the relevant rule from the GUI:

gauging or measuring other conditions that might affect play.

I would assume that wind direction would have a very large affect on play.

Kace · 03-02-2011 3:01pm

thegen wrote: »

No one of our members is a course rater with the GUI. He was adamant that it was not allowed on the course, more to do with sharing your score with a different group.

He raised the question within the GUI and they gave it the thumbs up.

So as far as I'm concerned an iphone is allowed on the course.

I presume you don't have that in writing ?

You may just need to get it before you win the Captain's Prize this year and then face disappointment when someone dobs you in.

PhilipMarlowe · 03-02-2011 3:38pm

Clear as mud...

But point 3 in strokes1 "clarification" allows the use of an iPhone on the course for other stuff and thegen's use of it to track scoring falls in there I feel, same as if I used it to access the rules of golf app during a round.
However, I wouldn't use the iPhone as a DMD because of the capabilities it has regarding other stuff like tilt, built-in compass etc on the newer versions and all that jazz that complicates things... much too messy.

IITYWYBMAD · 03-02-2011 3:52pm

Licksy wrote: »

Clear as mud...

But point 3 in strokes1 "clarification" allows the use of an iPhone on the course for other stuff and thegen's use of it to track scoring falls in there I feel, same as if I used it to access the rules of golf app during a round.
However, I wouldn't use the iPhone as a DMD because of the capabilities it has regarding other stuff like tilt, built-in compass etc on the newer versions and all that jazz that complicates things... much too messy.

I disagree Licksy, and I'm more than open to correction on this, but my reading from the GUI

(It should be noted that any such Local Rule must prohibit the use of a distance measuring device that is capable of gauging or measuring other conditions that might affect play, even if such a function is not used.)

http://www.gui.ie/news_detail.asp?id=998&area=1

Is that any device that is capable of gauging other conditions, such as an iPhone, irrespective of whether that instrument is used/installed/activated or not, is prohibited. Is this correct or not?

greyc · 03-02-2011 4:20pm

maybe I'm a bit thick here or I'm missing the point, (excuse the pun), but I just don't see what advantage a compass will give you on a golf course. Surely you guage the wind direction by feel and knowing that you're facing North and it's into your face doesn't make the shot any easier.

In all the years of playing golf, I can't remember one occasion where I've stood on the tee and thought, "I wish I had a compass to know what direction I'm facing, cause I don't know whether this shot is downwind or into off the left". Even if you're hitting from a secluded spot where there's no wind, you'll still look at the tree tops or flag in the distance to guage the wind direction.

If compasses made the difference between a good and bad round of golf, we'd have been carrying pocket ones for years.

Again I may have overlooked a specific mention of compasses by the USGA/R&A, but I think it's wrong to assume that just because they say that a DMD can't have additional features which may assist you when playing, that you can immediatley assume that this must mean a compass.

IITYWYBMAD · 04-02-2011 10:10am

greyc wrote: »

maybe I'm a bit thick here or I'm missing the point, (excuse the pun), but I just don't see what advantage a compass will give you on a golf course. Surely you guage the wind direction by feel and knowing that you're facing North and it's into your face doesn't make the shot any easier.

In all the years of playing golf, I can't remember one occasion where I've stood on the tee and thought, "I wish I had a compass to know what direction I'm facing, cause I don't know whether this shot is downwind or into off the left". Even if you're hitting from a secluded spot where there's no wind, you'll still look at the tree tops or flag in the distance to guage the wind direction.

If compasses made the difference between a good and bad round of golf, we'd have been carrying pocket ones for years.

Again I may have overlooked a specific mention of compasses by the USGA/R&A, but I think it's wrong to assume that just because they say that a DMD can't have additional features which may assist you when playing, that you can immediatley assume that this must mean a compass.

To a certain extent I agree with you, but your argument(s) are actually beside the actual point. The rule is quite clear in it's points. The iPhone has the capability to tell you wind speed and direction. There is also the capability to tell the slope on the greens on the iPhone. Now you need to install apps to get this information, but irrespective of that, the GUI say that if the device is capable of giving you this information, irrespective of whether it is used or not, then the device cannot be used as a DMD.

Garda S Horgan · 04-02-2011 10:12am

Hi,
I have attached a spreadsheet concerning smartphones from the GUI.
In summary, there is no case that allows a user to use GPS on the iphone/smartphone and not be in breach of the rules, regardless of the other applications.

So, you can use a smartphone as a phone, if the course allows, but you can't use the GPS. It can only be used as a normal phone.

Yours in clarifications,
GSH.

PhilipMarlowe · 04-02-2011 10:38am

So now you have it!
On quick reading, that seems to be what I was saying... use your "device" as a GPS for measuring distance and it better not be capable of doing other funky stuff, regardless of whether you used the funky stuff or not.
However, use your "device" to check the score in the hurling match, check the leaderboard or text the missus to make sure your dinner is ready :rolleyes: and you're fine, even if your device has the capability of checking the air-speed velocity of an unladen swallow or telling you that the green is 7 inches lower than the spot where you are in the rough, 256 metres away... so long as you don't use those funky features (including GPS/Distance measuring).

Ben1010 · 04-02-2011 10:54am

IITYWYBMAD wrote: »

I disagree Licksy, and I'm more than open to correction on this, but my reading from the GUI

(It should be noted that any such Local Rule must prohibit the use of a distance measuring device that is capable of gauging or measuring other conditions that might affect play, even if such a function is not used.)

http://www.gui.ie/news_detail.asp?id=998&area=1

Is that any device that is capable of gauging other conditions, such as an iPhone, irrespective of whether that instrument is used/installed/activated or not, is prohibited. Is this correct or not?

+1. Think about lads, the iphone is all fancy and all that but it has the capbilility of downloading app to test the wind conditions. So whether it has been downloaded or not, it beside the point.
Bit like having 15 clubs in the bag but i won't use the 15th club at all!!!

IITYWYBMAD · 04-02-2011 11:01am

Licksy wrote: »

So now you have it!
On quick reading, that seems to be what I was saying... use your "device" as a GPS for measuring distance and it better not be capable of doing other funky stuff, regardless of whether you used the funky stuff or not.
However, use your "device" to check the score in the hurling match, check the leaderboard or text the missus to make sure your dinner is ready :rolleyes: and you're fine, even if your device has the capability of checking the air-speed velocity of an unladen swallow or telling you that the green is 7 inches lower than the spot where you are in the rough, 256 metres away... so long as you don't use those funky features (including GPS/Distance measuring).

Indeed, but bottom line is that you cannot use an iPhone as a DMD.....

Garda S Horgan · 04-02-2011 11:12am

Yep.
For the purpose of what we as golfers are trying to find out, which is 'can we use the iphone apps to gauge distance to the hole' then the answers is no.
According to that ruling on smartphones, the phone can be used as a phone and thats it. If you use it as a GPS then it's a non compliant device.
Time to just go and guy a GPS. There are so many of them out there anyway.

Yours in jailing those who use smartphone apps on golf courses,
GSH.

Golfgraffix · 04-02-2011 11:29am

As a company who develop smart phone apps specifically for golf, I can tell you that you will not get a definitive answer from the R&A or the GUI but you will get a 99.9% no . I think they are still in the suck it and see stage.

I can say that this has not really slowed down any sales or interest in our products as most courses, especially the resort courses are using the app as a brand awareness tool more aimed at the tourist golfer than the competitive golfer. So OP I would not let this ruling stop your development, it sounds like a nice idea.

Of course for serious golfers the iPhone does not offer a great level of accuracy, combine that with Google Earth's limitation, it almost makes this a mute point. The internal GPS using Core Location on an iPhone will give you an accuracy of 4 decimal places, when 6 or at least 5 is needed for golf. The 4th decimal place is +/- 11m, so you could be anywhere up to 22m out, where 5 decimal places would be +/-1.1m and 6 decimal places would be +/-11cm. So if you add this relatively poor accuracy with Google earth (if that is the base data) which has an accuracy of +/- 20m at best you can easily see how using the iPhone as a DMD can be a case of pure guessing. Of course in saying this you could be very lucky on any given day and get some very good GPS readings, but the reliability is just not there - YET!!

But good luck to the OP.

J

Getting myself confused, when I was referring to the OP I was thinking I was in the thread about GPS Coordinates.

Thanks for posting the excel sheet Garda, it was very useful.

Garda S Horgan · 04-02-2011 11:40am

Golfgraffix wrote: »

As a company who develop smart phone apps specifically for golf, I can tell you that you will not get a definitive answer from the R&A or the GUI but you will get a 99.9% no . I think they are still in the suck it and see stage.

I can say that this has not really slowed down any sales or interest in our products as most courses, especially the resort courses are using the app as a brand awareness tool more aimed at the tourist golfer than the competitive golfer. So OP I would not let this ruling stop your development, it sounds like a nice idea.

Of course for serious golfers the iPhone does not offer a great level of accuracy, combine that with Google Earth's limitation, it almost makes this a mute point. The internal GPS using Core Location on an iPhone will give you an accuracy of 4 decimal places, when 6 or at least 5 is needed for golf. The 4th decimal place is +/- 11m, so you could be anywhere up to 22m out, where 5 decimal places would be +/-1.1m and 6 decimal places would be +/-11cm. So if you add this relatively poor accuracy with Google earth (if that is the base data) which has an accuracy of +/- 20m at best you can easily see how using the iPhone as a DMD can be a case of pure guessing. Of course in saying this you could be very lucky on any given day and get some very good GPS readings, but the reliability is just not there - YET!!

But good luck to the OP.

J

I mailed the GUI. I mailed specific situations. I wanted to check if I can use my free aps or not. I also have a sureshot though.
The answer I got back was the very detailed excel spreadsheet, and that not 99.9% no. It's 100% no.

If people are using an app on a smartphone (today) to guage distance then it's breaching the rules. It's about as definitive an answer as you can get to be honest...

Perhaps in the future they will change the rules on smartphones, but according to the rules that they have in place at the moment, you cannot use a smartphone on the golf course as a distance measuring device.

Yours etc,
GSH.

Golfgraffix · 04-02-2011 11:44am

We had the same problem when we started with our Apps, I am afraid you will have to gps them yourself or you could buy ortho imagery from the OSI for each course, will cost about €460 plus the VAT for each one.

J

Fore Iron · 04-02-2011 11:46am

Golfgraffix's post is a good one. A lot of people do not realise that the accuracy of smartphone GPS applications is pretty poor. So even if you were allowed to use your app, you're probably at a disadvantage as a result!!

I laugh to see players stand beside a fairway distance marker and ignore it and instead take their GPS out and decide what club to use.

Also, iphones have the capapbility to measure gradient or slope. The spirit level app for example. So you could in theory at least figure out if a putt is perfectly flat or slightly left to right or whatever.

And it doesn't matter how ridiculous it seems that someone would actually want a compass or spirit level on the course. The rules clearly say that you can't have a device that is acapable of doing either of those things.

Really seems pretty black and white to me!

Golfgraffix · 04-02-2011 11:53am

I was at the PGA Merchandise show in the US recently and saw a small device that attaches to the top of any normal DMD, skycaddie etc. Basically it is a small anommometre and spirit level. It could be argued that this is something similar to a smartphone app. Although it is not used by the majority of players it is available to use on a legal DMD.

Just playing devils advocate

J

Fore Iron · 04-02-2011 11:54am

Golfgraffix wrote: »

I was at the PGA Merchandise show in the US recently and saw a small device that attaches to the top of any normal DMD, skycaddie etc. Basically it is a small anommometre and spirit level. It could be argued that this is something similar to a smartphone app. Although it is not used by the majority of players it is available to use on a legal DMD.

Just playing devils advocate

J

I would be very confident that that would be pitched at the amatuer golfer for his casual round. I would be absolutely shocked if that was meant for competitive play...

Garda S Horgan · 04-02-2011 12:01pm

Golfgraffix wrote: »

I was at the PGA Merchandise show in the US recently and saw a small device that attaches to the top of any normal DMD, skycaddie etc. Basically it is a small anommometre and spirit level. It could be argued that this is something similar to a smartphone app. Although it is not used by the majority of players it is available to use on a legal DMD.

Just playing devils advocate

J

The US have this "resort golf" idea though. In my opinion its not good for golf at all. Go out and play on great courses and think nothing about throwing the ball out of the rough or grounding the club in a bunker or hitting bushes in a yellow hazard on your back swing. This sort of "golf lite" seems to be just around the notion that it's a game to be played on a golf course but no need to really follow any rules as such. If yu're under a tree then flake away with the backswing knocking bits off it and not calling a penalty on yourself.
These are all against the rules of course but some people just want to get out in a nice resort and go for a walk on the course.

Personally, I don't sign up to that notion.
Either play the game by the rules or don't play it. It's not like rugby or soccer where you can break the rules and if no-one catches you then it's ok.

Thats my own view on it. If the GUI bring out a rule to say that we can use more equipment then I'll be using it. Until then, no.

Yours etc,
GSH.

IITYWYBMAD · 04-02-2011 12:02pm

Fore Iron wrote: »

I would be very confident that that would be pitched at the amatuer golfer for his casual round. I would be absolutely shocked if that was meant for competitive play...

You'd be surprised. I played in a pro-am some time ago, and the caddies were using GPS devices and slope gauges in preparation for Thursday. While the units are not used in competition, they are used by the Pro's, or more correctly, on behalf of the Pro's.

Fore Iron · 04-02-2011 12:12pm

IITYWYBMAD wrote: »

You'd be surprised. I played in a pro-am some time ago, and the caddies were using GPS devices and slope gauges in preparation for Thursday. While the units are not used in competition, they are used by the Pro's, or more correctly, on behalf of the Pro's.

Sorry, read your post properly and edited mine!

Anyhoo, as far as I'm aware, most (obviously not all) caddies use laser rangefinders rather than GPS because of the massively improved accuracy. But fair enough, maybe they are not just pitched at amateur goflers....

Garda S Horgan · 04-02-2011 12:16pm

IITYWYBMAD wrote: »

You'd be surprised. I played in a pro-am some time ago, and the caddies were using GPS devices and slope gauges in preparation for Thursday. While the units are not used in competition, they are used by the Pro's, or more correctly, on behalf of the Pro's.

If you bring information to the course and are not getting new information fed to you from off the course or by illegal devices on the course then it's ok.
You do see the pros have some serious amount of information with them on competition day, but it's all written down prior to the round.
I can go down to my club later, walk around with a spirit level and test moisture levels on different areas of the green. Once I write it all down and don't bring any of that equipment with me when playing, then it's grand.

Yours etc,
GSH.

Golfgraffix · 04-02-2011 12:24pm

Of course there is one simple solution and one I would not mind seeing - ban all DMD in competition.

Use what ever you want when practising and playing a fun round but when it comes to inter club or home comps, play the game as it was meant to played.

Personally I think that devices such as iPhone etc have an important role in golf, especially in attracting the younger golfers, what the GUI refere to the "Lost Generation" but I am torn, as someone who has worked in course design and now works in golf marketing it is hard to draw a line between pure old fashion golf and embracing a more digital age.

J

IITYWYBMAD · 04-02-2011 12:29pm

Golfgraffix wrote: »

Of course there is one simple solution and one I would not mind seeing - ban all DMD in competition.

Use what ever you want when practising and playing a fun round but when it comes to inter club or home comps, play the game as it was meant to played.

Personally I think that devices such as iPhone etc have an important role in golf, especially in attracting the younger golfers, what the GUI refere to the "Lost Generation" but I am torn, as someone who has worked in course design and now works in golf marketing it is hard to draw a line between pure old fashion golf and embracing a more digital age.

J

AFAIK they are banned from inter-club comps...There was an incident last year in the Provincial Towns comp where a club was DQ'd for using one..

Garda S Horgan · 04-02-2011 1:11pm

IITYWYBMAD wrote: »

AFAIK they are banned from inter-club comps...There was an incident last year in the Provincial Towns comp where a club was DQ'd for using one..

They are not allowed in GUI run competitions such as the Bruen or Barton for example.
I agree with Golfgraffix that the easiest is to just ban all DMDs.

If they did ban them all, I think many people, like myself, would use the DMD to walk the course late some summer and just write down many points on each hole and the distance from there to the middle of the green.
This would just work on the home course in practise.
Then perhaps we could see an online sales site where people sell detailed .pdf files of the holes on their home course and perhaps 15/20 points of attraction per hole.
This might slow down play as players approach their ball and then start going through a notepad, but it would be fairer than having any device in the bag at all.

Yours etc,
GSH.

Anon47 · 05-02-2011 7:04am

I have developed and published an app for our club which contains a range finder and the pro says its ok to use it by local rule.
That said, however, the post by Garda above suggests otherwise. I suppose it can be used for casual golf but not competitions.
To say that DMDs should be banned, however, is like King Canute trying to stop the tide coming in. That sort of Luddite attitude
to new technology gets us nowhere. We should embrace advances like this and weave them into the beautiful game of golf.
BRSGolf have revolutionised the golf booking area and there are few people hankering after the sunday morning 6am queue to get
on next weeks timesheet.
GolfGraffix.com (assuming its the same person) produce fabulous iPhone apps for the likes of Roganstown and the only thing
they are missing from their app (imho) is a decent rangefinder which is quite easy to program once you have the green coordinates.

Garda S Horgan · 07-02-2011 8:14am

Anon47 wrote: »

I have developed and published an app for our club which contains a range finder and the pro says its ok to use it by local rule.
That said, however, the post by Garda above suggests otherwise. I suppose it can be used for casual golf but not competitions.
To say that DMDs should be banned, however, is like King Canute trying to stop the tide coming in. That sort of Luddite attitude
to new technology gets us nowhere. We should embrace advances like this and weave them into the beautiful game of golf.
BRSGolf have revolutionised the golf booking area and there are few people hankering after the sunday morning 6am queue to get
on next weeks timesheet.
GolfGraffix.com (assuming its the same person) produce fabulous iPhone apps for the likes of Roganstown and the only thing
they are missing from their app (imho) is a decent rangefinder which is quite easy to program once you have the green coordinates.

The pro isn't the one who decides the rules though. The GUI are. It's fairly black and white to me at the moment, and unless the GUI change the rules, a phone can only be used as a phone. Using any app on the phone while on the course is a breach of rules.

Yours etc,
GSH.

Anon47 · 09-02-2011 7:52am

I think that the rules are outlined in the spreadsheet you got from the GUI are unwieldy and unworkable. As usual the initial response of the authorities is conservative and rejectionist, then it will become neutral and then finally accepting, A player still has to hit the ball no matter how much information they have to hand about distance and wind speed/direction, no amount of electronic DMD-like aids will change that. You only have to look at the debate on goal-line technology in soccer at the moment, when we look back in ten years time we will laugh at the likes of Sepp Blathers current attitude.

Garda S Horgan · 09-02-2011 8:47am

Anon47 wrote: »

I think that the rules are outlined in the spreadsheet you got from the GUI are unwieldy and unworkable. As usual the initial response of the authorities is conservative and rejectionist, then it will become neutral and then finally accepting, A player still has to hit the ball no matter how much information they have to hand about distance and wind speed/direction, no amount of electronic DMD-like aids will change that. You only have to look at the debate on goal-line technology in soccer at the moment, when we look back in ten years time we will laugh at the likes of Sepp Blathers current attitude.

Comparing soccer or any other sport where you need a camera to see if a goalie has cheated or if a player has grounded a ball or not is not comparable to golf and should never be. In soccer all 11 players and fans will claim a ball did not cross the line, and the goalie (as has happened before) will swear it did not cross the line even though he knows he is lying.

Thats why that technology is needed there.
The rules in the GUI are in no way unweildy or unworkable. They are very clear. A phone is a phone and thats it. Black and white.
Also "unworkable" suggests that you can't stop people from using the phone as a spirit level on a green if they want to. Thats true, but thats assuming that people who play golf will cheat. It's a game of trust and to say that very black and white clear cut rules are unworkable suggests to me that you would like to see people cheat.

Golf GPS apps may be legal in the future, but thats the future. For now they are not and if I see someone using them then I will pull them up on it, same way as I would if I saw someone cheating some other way.

Comparing soccer to golf?? Jesus Wept.

Yours etc,
GSH.

iPhone DMD's

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