Land Lord duped us into clearing his debt with the esb

Lone Stone · 30-01-2011 1:07am #1

Myself and my room mates are having problems with our land lord since septemeber, Our power goes of daily and the house runs of a type of token system, anyway long story short it keeps going into debt and our electricity disappears.

I was onto the esb and a helpfull customer service guy informed me that this is because the house we are renting is in debt to the esb and that the box we put our tokens into is their to reduce the landlord debt.

So we have been asking our land lord to fix this box since septemeber and he never once mentioned this himself and the agencey guy told us the house ran of this mete we only buy tokens no need to worry about the bills.

But now we find out we have been duped into paying 1050 euro a month rent and clearing our land lords debt with the esb, some time's it cost us 60-70 euro a week its costing us way to much money.

I think we have grounds to sue him, This is fraud and he is a con artist and a bad land lord.

I contacted threshold.ie and been trying to get in touch with the prtb to no avail.

We went to the gard's and the guard suggested cancelling our rent and contacting a solicitor so we have cancelled our rent and told the land lord we arent paying untill this is sorted out and we want the money we are owed back.

But he has not responded since friday. We asked him to come in the night prior to discuss the situation he said he would come in to us but never showed. He live's above us. So the next morning we cancelled our rent.

We want to take legal action but not really sure how to go about it.

any advice ?

drunkmonkey · 30-01-2011 1:18am

You haven't been duped by the sounds of it, you pay your esb by the token method but your landlord pays the bill. You've simply being paying for your electricity. The account being is debt/arrears is not your concern that's between the account holder (landlord) & the ESB.
The token machine not working is something that should be fixed if it's faulty not sure if that's the esb or landlords job.
You didn't say how many peope live in the house you electricity seems a little expensive but it could still be normal depending on how the house runs.

blueythebear · 30-01-2011 1:19am

Lone Stone wrote: »

Myself and my room mates are having problems with our land lord since septemeber, Our power goes of daily and the house runs of a type of token system, anyway long story short it keeps going into debt and our electricity disappears.

I was onto the esb and a helpfull customer service guy informed me that this is because the house we are renting is in debt to the esb and that the box we put our tokens into is their to reduce the landlord debt.

So we have been asking our land lord to fix this box since septemeber and he never once mentioned this himself and the agencey guy told us the house ran of this mete we only buy tokens no need to worry about the bills.

But now we find out we have been duped into paying 1050 euro a month rent and clearing our land lords debt with the esb, some time's it cost us 60-70 euro a week its costing us way to much money.

I think we have grounds to sue him, This is fraud and he is a con artist and a bad land lord.

I contacted threshold.ie and been trying to get in touch with the prtb to no avail.

We went to the gard's and the guard suggested cancelling our rent and contacting a solicitor so we have cancelled our rent and told the land lord we arent paying untill this is sorted out and we want the money we are owed back.

But he has not responded since friday. We asked him to come in the night prior to discuss the situation he said he would come in to us but never showed. He live's above us. So the next morning we cancelled our rent.

We want to take legal action but not really sure how to go about it.

any advice ?

If he lives above you in the same dwelling then you're not covered under the Residential Tenancies Act and the PRTB would have no input. Your grievance would have to be based on contract law so whether you can pursue this through the courts is dependent on the contents of your lease.

I'm open to correction on this but if there is a token or coin operated meter, that is there solely to provide electricity. It is not there to pay any arrears that your landlord owes to ESB. Presumably, you would have been infomred that there was a coin operated meter on moving in so I'm sorry to say that you may be barking up the wrong tree with legal action in this regard. That said, I would suggest you seek legal advice from a solicitor and Threshold would be a good place to start.

Lone Stone · 30-01-2011 1:29am

blueythebear wrote: »

If he lives above you in the same dwelling then you're not covered under the Residential Tenancies Act and the PRTB would have no input. Your grievance would have to be based on contract law so whether you can pursue this through the courts is dependent on the contents of your lease.

I'm open to correction on this but if there is a token or coin operated meter, that is there solely to provide electricity. It is not there to pay any arrears that your landlord owes to ESB. Presumably, you would have been infomred that there was a coin operated meter on moving in so I'm sorry to say that you may be barking up the wrong tree with legal action in this regard. That said, I would suggest you seek legal advice from a solicitor and Threshold would be a good place to start.

No no its not a coin operated meter, We have a esb card with his details on it we were told we need to use this to buy these tickets from the shop with red txt on them for they come in 5 euro's. We slot them into the box its the actual power box you know and get 5 euro on the meter.

We are in the house from sunday night to thursday night some time's friday night, We come back on sundays and the house is in debt some times up to 20 euro, The esb guy told me this is because the land lord is in debt and that every time we buy a ticket and put it in the box it takes 3-4 euro fo the ticket and we may have only 1 or two euro's of power.

Our power literally goes of every morning we put 10 euro in thursday it was gone friday morning. And in 5 euro debt. He has had some electriction who was not from the esb out tinkering with the box in sepetemeber before he tinkered with it, when the money ran out on the box it would show up as 2700 debt. That just doesnt show up since this guy was messing with the box.

I have asked the land lord to sort this out for months, I asked to get this fixed we are fed up with this now its going for ages, I told him to get it sorted or we arent going to pay our rent this month his responce was if your not happy you can give me your notice, He has no intention of fixing the problem.

-edit-
ow and we have like a little house and he is in the building on the side of it, between us and a shop. And he is registered with the prtb the agencey told me when i rang them up about it, but they told me they dont manage the property and there is nothing they can do about it and to contact threshold or the prtb etc.

MagicSean · 30-01-2011 10:53am

Move out.

Our man in Havana · 30-01-2011 12:09pm

k_mac wrote: »

Move out.

Agreed!

What has happened is the ESB have fitted a budget controller meter which is used to control the use of electricity and to collect arrears. What happens is when the meter is installed it is programmed to take so much off the debt each week usually on a Friday, hence when you returned the meter was showing a debt which must be cleared with tokens before any electricity can be used.

You are paying his debt, get the hell out of there asap!

Lone Stone · 30-01-2011 12:13pm

But we cant get out now we are in college and have 3 months left there is no chance of us finding a place to live for 3 months

MagicSean · 30-01-2011 12:47pm

Lone Stone wrote: »

But we cant get out now we are in college and have 3 months left there is no chance of us finding a place to live for 3 months

Why? There's tonnes of people who would gladly rent out rooms for the extra money. Have you tried?

Jo King · 30-01-2011 2:54pm

Lone Stone wrote: »

We went to the gard's and the guard suggested cancelling our rent and contacting a solicitor so we have cancelled our rent and told the land lord we arent paying untill this is sorted out and we want the money we are owed back.

Typical of the guards. There couldn't be a clearer case of theft and they won't investigate. Unless someone picks something up and runs off they don't want to know.

drunkmonkey · 30-01-2011 3:51pm

Jo King wrote: »

Typical of the guards. There couldn't be a clearer case of theft and they won't investigate. Unless someone picks something up and runs off they don't want to know.

How is it theft, there the rules of the house if you rent it. If you don't like the rules you move out. It's a civil matter, it should be solved between the landlord and the tenants there's no need to get anyone else involved.
Small reduction in rent to compensate for the extra cost of electricity would be a fair suggestion by op to the landlord. Not paying the rent isn't going to end well.

MagicSean · 30-01-2011 4:13pm

Jo King wrote: »

Typical of the guards. There couldn't be a clearer case of theft and they won't investigate. Unless someone picks something up and runs off they don't want to know.

You offend me Jo. First of all this would not be a theft. It would be more akin to making a gain or causing a loss by deception. And if the op had come to me with this complaint and any kind of evidence I would happily investigate it. And I know many of my colleagues would too, even if only out of obligation. There would be Gardaí who would try and fob it off but I hardly think this is typical of the majority of us.

drunkmonkey wrote: »

How is it theft, there the rules of the house if you rent it. If you don't like the rules you move out. It's a civil matter, it should be solved between the landlord and the tenants there's no need to get anyone else involved.
Small reduction in rent to compensate for the extra cost of electricity would be a fair suggestion by op to the landlord. Not paying the rent isn't going to end well.

It is not as simple as an extra cost of electricity. The landlord has conned them into paying off his debts.

Lone Stone · 30-01-2011 5:21pm

k_mac wrote: »

You offend me Jo. First of all this would not be a theft. It would be more akin to making a gain or causing a loss by deception. And if the op had come to me with this complaint and any kind of evidence I would happily investigate it. And I know many of my colleagues would too, even if only out of obligation. There would be Gardaí who would try and fob it off but I hardly think this is typical of the majority of us.

It is not as simple as an extra cost of electricity. The landlord has conned them into paying off his debts.

Thanks for the replies,

We went the guards and we spoke to them about the situation the guy was really un interested doodling on his note pad, We asked him does this count as fraud or anything you know something we have been conned out of our money, He told us it was nothing to do with the garda even this is basically someone conning us out of our money. But what can i do nothing it seems.

Im still waiting to hear back from threshold and the prtb so far ive been unable to get through to anyone, Hopefully il hear some thing tomorrow.

And moving out sounds like the best thing, but we are finishing up our 3rd year in college at the moment up to our eyes in work and freezing our asses of in this house which also only has one radiator which cant use because the power goes out even faster if we turn it on ! It would be easy enough for me to move back as i am from dublin but my two house mates are not and it is not easy to find a place near the college or in traveling distance at this time of the year as they would most likely be taken.

Anyway i have to go down to the house soon, and i dont know if i will even be able to get into the house and the power has been of since friday morning again everything in our fridge will have to be binned, And im sure the debt on the box will be about 30 euro by now. So i may be back later if i dont have murder with land lord pritty sick of this **** now and we dont seem to be able to get anything done about it.

But this is ireland i guess its ok to rip people off.

MagicSean · 30-01-2011 5:41pm

Lone Stone wrote: »

Thanks for the replies,

We went the guards and we spoke to them about the situation the guy was really un interested doodling on his note pad, We asked him does this count as fraud or anything you know something we have been conned out of our money, He told us it was nothing to do with the garda even this is basically someone conning us out of our money. But what can i do nothing it seems.

Im still waiting to hear back from threshold and the prtb so far ive been unable to get through to anyone, Hopefully il hear some thing tomorrow.

And moving out sounds like the best thing, but we are finishing up our 3rd year in college at the moment up to our eyes in work and freezing our asses of in this house which also only has one radiator which cant use because the power goes out even faster if we turn it on ! It would be easy enough for me to move back as i am from dublin but my two house mates are not and it is not easy to find a place near the college or in traveling distance at this time of the year as they would most likely be taken.

Anyway i have to go down to the house soon, and i dont know if i will even be able to get into the house and the power has been of since friday morning again everything in our fridge will have to be binned, And im sure the debt on the box will be about 30 euro by now. So i may be back later if i dont have murder with land lord pritty sick of this **** now and we dont seem to be able to get anything done about it.

But this is ireland i guess its ok to rip people off.

if you can get something in writing from the ESB to say that the box is being used for paying off debt that would be useful. Could be difficult as the account is most likely in his name. Have you any kind of contract with him that sets out the terms of paying for electricity?

Lone Stone · 30-01-2011 6:02pm

I have the lease agreement and i have his esb details, when we rang up back septemeber and gave those details the women told us we were in arears of like 3000 euro but when we talked lord about it he said it would be sorted and not to worry about, We thought he was a trust worthy guy at the time and left it at that we had no clue we were clearing his debt and thought the box was a normal meter box none of use seen or used one before this.

I will get in touch with the esb again and ask them if they can send me something in writing stating that the house in arears and that the box is indeed a budget controller meter like the esb guy on the phone told me.

I wont be down in the house till tomorrow now so im going to try the prtb again in the morning the agencey told me they had him register before letting the place out.

Like i could get the information of his account easily as i have his esb card which we use to get the tokens it has his details/account number etc on it

amdublin · 30-01-2011 6:22pm

Have you spoke to your landlord about the situation?

What has his response been?

Lone Stone · 30-01-2011 7:12pm

amdublin wrote: »

Have you spoke to your landlord about the situation?

What has his response been?

Yea ive spoke to him about it since septemeber about 50 time's already, First time he told us he would sort it out and he had some guy who wasnt from the esb came down and messed with the box which made things worse he came back and messed with it two more time's after that , then I talked about it with again a few weeks later because the problem persisted and he told he was on to the esb ( we told him we wanted to see someone from the esb out to fix the power, the esb told us they could not come out when we asked because it was registered under the land lords name)

He told me the esb were coming down to replace the box , this never happened when i asked him about he told me he missed them, and that it was going to be fixed as he is taking care of it, Again nothing he just put his own money into the box for about 3 weeks because he knew we were getting suspicious, I brought it up with him a few more time's,

About two weeks ago i had a argument with him over it telling him if its not fixed were not going to pay our rent. His responce was "are you happy here ?" i said im not happy with this situation , "if your not happy you can give me a months notice" was his responce , i told this that it is responsibility to get this sorted out but he just says i am taking arent i and i was like no your not because this is going on since sept and its costing us a fortune to keep the power on. He tried to tell me he actually had a card that would stop the box going into debt, So i said to him well if you have this card all along what are you doing with it , why havent you given it to us since this is going on since septemeber. He said "ow yea well its in my other car and thats in the shop being repaired so i cant get it right now il drop it into you during the week" Obviously this never happened. and i havent heard from him since.

The box kept going into debt over the next two weeks, We rang him last thursday asked him to come down and discuss this situation with us he said he would drop in and never showed up,
Next day in debt again, This was when i rang the esb found out about the house being in arrears and that we were clearing his debt. We cancelled our rent and contacted him telling him we arent paying our rent and we stated that we have been asking since sept to get this fixed and all he's done is lie to us and now we found out about the debt and this was friday 21 jan he hasnt contacted us since and is ignoring us.

Jo King · 30-01-2011 7:30pm

k_mac wrote: »

You offend me Jo. First of all this would not be a theft. It would be more akin to making a gain or causing a loss by deception. And if the op had come to me with this complaint and any kind of evidence I would happily investigate it. And I know many of my colleagues would too, even if only out of obligation. There would be Gardaí who would try and fob it off but I hardly think this is typical of the majority of us.

It is not as simple as an extra cost of electricity. The landlord has conned them into paying off his debts.

the Criminal Justice (Theft and Fraud Offences) Act, 2001

“property” means money and all other property, real or personal, including things in action and other intangible property;

4.—(1) Subject to section 5 , a person is guilty of theft if he or she dishonestly appropriates property without the consent of its owner and with the intention of depriving its owner of it.

6.—(1) A person who dishonestly, with the intention of making a gain for himself or herself or another, or of causing loss to another, by any deception induces another to do or refrain from doing an act is guilty of an offence.

Sections 4 and 6 of the Theft Act can easily be charged in the alternative. There is little doubt that the Landlord has appropriated the tenants property dishonestly. He has converted the credit balances on their cards to his own use.

This can easily be proven by the guards checking the state of the landlords esb account, letting the tenant buying a card and putting it into the meter. A check on the landlords balance after this transaction will prove what has happened.

I have had numerous cases of the guards not following up on non standard thefts. It is mind boggling that to investigate this would be seen as a favour.

The only reported cases on Section 6 involve extraditions. How many times has it been used for an offence committed in Ireland?

MagicSean · 30-01-2011 8:19pm

Jo King wrote: »

the Criminal Justice (Theft and Fraud Offences) Act, 2001

“property” means money and all other property, real or personal, including things in action and other intangible property;

4.—(1) Subject to section 5 , a person is guilty of theft if he or she dishonestly appropriates property without the consent of its owner and with the intention of depriving its owner of it.

6.—(1) A person who dishonestly, with the intention of making a gain for himself or herself or another, or of causing loss to another, by any deception induces another to do or refrain from doing an act is guilty of an offence.

Sections 4 and 6 of the Theft Act can easily be charged in the alternative. There is little doubt that the Landlord has appropriated the tenants property dishonestly. He has converted the credit balances on their cards to his own use.

This can easily be proven by the guards checking the state of the landlords esb account, letting the tenant buying a card and putting it into the meter. A check on the landlords balance after this transaction will prove what has happened.

I have had numerous cases of the guards not following up on non standard thefts. It is mind boggling that to investigate this would be seen as a favour.

The only reported cases on Section 6 involve extraditions. How many times has it been used for an offence committed in Ireland?

Can guards access peoples accounts like that? i never mentioned a favour. i said an obligation.

MinnyMinor · 30-01-2011 8:23pm

We went to the gard's and the guard suggested cancelling our rent and contacting a solicitor so we have cancelled our rent and told the land lord we arent paying untill this is sorted out and we want the money we are owed back.

another garda who is not doing his job. Report him to his superintendent

Jo King · 30-01-2011 8:46pm

k_mac wrote: »

Can guards access peoples accounts like that? i never mentioned a favour. i said an obligation.

Guards can of course ask the ESB for information if investigating a crime.
I construed the phrase "even if only out of obligation" as meaning you would do it to oblige the complainant, thus doing it as a favour.
The guards have no difficulty about approaching innocent people on the street and asking them their name and address, helping clamping companies recover civil debts and yet, when clear evidence of a crime is presented to them, it is "can we do this and can we do that?"

MinnyMinor · 30-01-2011 8:54pm

Jo King wrote: »

Guards can of course ask the ESB for information if investigating a crime.
I construed the phrase "even if only out of obligation" as meaning you would do it to oblige the complainant, thus doing it as a favour.
The guards have no difficulty about approaching innocent people on the street and asking them their name and address, helping clamping companies recover civil debts and yet, when clear evidence of a crime is presented to them, it is "can we do this and can we do that?"

+1000

MagicSean · 30-01-2011 11:27pm

Jo King wrote: »

Guards can of course ask the ESB for information if investigating a crime.
I construed the phrase "even if only out of obligation" as meaning you would do it to oblige the complainant, thus doing it as a favour.
The guards have no difficulty about approaching innocent people on the street and asking them their name and address, helping clamping companies recover civil debts and yet, when clear evidence of a crime is presented to them, it is "can we do this and can we do that?"

I would have thought he Gardaí have no right to demand personal account information about someone without their permission or a warrant. It would seem like a giant breach of privacy, one that I would hope would be challenged by any half decent defence solicitor. But i am open to correction on this matter.

You construed the phrase wrong. By obligation I meant requirement.

It's the job of Gardaí to question people they feel they need to. I don't know any who take part in civil debt recovery. In the ops case no clear evidence was presented to the Garda. The op told the Garda what he had been told over the phone by the ESB person who had read it from a screen which had been most likely updated by the engineer.

drunkmonkey · 30-01-2011 11:39pm

Landlord aside the ESB have to be in breach of data protection laws here, there is no way you should know anything about your landlords account. If I was the landlord I'd be fuming with them.
Have one good conversation with your landlord and come to some kind of agreement, no matter who gets involved it's something you need to sort between yourselves.
If no rent is paid you may come home to find the locks changed some day, if you have a problem you go to threshold or seek legal advice but 2 wrongs don't make a right if you get me.

Jo King · 01-02-2011 12:41pm

k_mac wrote: »

I would have thought he Gardaí have no right to demand personal account information about someone without their permission or a warrant. It would seem like a giant breach of privacy, one that I would hope would be challenged by any half decent defence solicitor. But i am open to correction on this matter.

You construed the phrase wrong. By obligation I meant requirement.

It's the job of Gardaí to question people they feel they need to. I don't know any who take part in civil debt recovery. In the ops case no clear evidence was presented to the Garda. The op told the Garda what he had been told over the phone by the ESB person who had read it from a screen which had been most likely updated by the engineer.

From the Data Protection Act.

8.—Any restrictions in this Act on the disclosure of personal data do not apply if the disclosure is—

( b ) required for the purpose of preventing, detecting or investigating offences, apprehending or prosecuting offenders or assessing or collecting any tax, duty or other moneys owed or payable to the State, a local authority or a health board, in any case in which the application of those restrictions would be likely to prejudice any of the matters aforesaid,

There is no restriction on accessing data.

The O?P does not have to prove a criminal offence was committed. Some debt cases are both criminal and civil. Obtaining services by deception, making off without payment is another. On what the o/p said, if true an offence was committed. It can be investigated and checked relatively easily. If my bicycle goes missing from outside my house and I did not give it to anyone, I report it stolen. The guards should investigate. It might turn out later it was not stolen. Someone borrowed it.
It is ridiculous the excuses made by guards not to investigate.
The only difficulty with evidence is with unconstitutionally obtained evidence. No way does this arise here.

If you meant requirement, it follows that guard to whom the complaint was made is also required to investiagte.

MagicSean · 01-02-2011 2:37pm

Jo King wrote: »

From the Data Protection Act.

8.—Any restrictions in this Act on the disclosure of personal data do not apply if the disclosure is—

( b ) required for the purpose of preventing, detecting or investigating offences, apprehending or prosecuting offenders or assessing or collecting any tax, duty or other moneys owed or payable to the State, a local authority or a health board, in any case in which the application of those restrictions would be likely to prejudice any of the matters aforesaid,

There is no restriction on accessing data.

That's interesting. I always thought you had to have some evidence other than a complaint to access this kind of information. I'd say this request could not be from the Garda though. It would probably have to go a good bit up the chain of command before the request could be made.

Jo King wrote: »

The O?P does not have to prove a criminal offence was committed. Some debt cases are both criminal and civil. Obtaining services by deception, making off without payment is another. On what the o/p said, if true an offence was committed. It can be investigated and checked relatively easily. If my bicycle goes missing from outside my house and I did not give it to anyone, I report it stolen. The guards should investigate. It might turn out later it was not stolen. Someone borrowed it.
It is ridiculous the excuses made by guards not to investigate.
The only difficulty with evidence is with unconstitutionally obtained evidence. No way does this arise here.

A person making a complaint would generally have to have something to back up their claim though. For an assault you have an injury. For a theft you have a missing item. If you left your bike somewhere and it was not there when you have returned there is something to back up your claim it was stolen. In the ops case he is claiming the landlord has duped him into paying his bill. A list of a few weeks details of money placed in the machine and corresponding meter readings would be an example. If there was nothing needed to back up a complaint then there is the potential for a large amount of vexatious complaints. Obviously there will be exceptions to this but I think it is a reasonable thing to ask for.

Jo King wrote: »

If you meant requirement, it follows that guard to whom the complaint was made is also required to investiagte.

That's what I said. As long as there is something to investigate.

PCPhoto · 01-02-2011 3:12pm

might be a bit stupid but .... has the OP asked the ESB for a declaration of what the "token box's" function is ..... if he/she can get a description from the ESB that this is used to clear a debt by means of X amount taken off the debt X amount used for the electricity.

Then he/she would have some form of evidence to use with respect to a civil or even claims of a criminal matter (if some of the allegations in this thread are correct)

Personally what I would have done is get it sorted at the start of tenancy ...if it continued during tenancy...move out.... chalk it down as a lesson learned and move on to a new place.....its just typical of people's attitudes these days .... I want to sue someone because I was an idiot (no offence intended towards the OP)

The quicker people stop looking for someone else to blame and accept responsibility themselves the better - society is full of people trying to sue at any opportunity.

Our man in Havana · 01-02-2011 3:16pm

If people have been wronged they are entitled to sue. The courts are not places for moral judgement.

MinnyMinor · 01-02-2011 5:04pm

k_mac wrote: »

That's interesting. I always thought you had to have some evidence other than a complaint to access this kind of information. I'd say this request could not be from the Garda though. It would probably have to go a good bit up the chain of command before the request could be made.

A person making a complaint would generally have to have something to back up their claim though. For an assault you have an injury. For a theft you have a missing item. If you left your bike somewhere and it was not there when you have returned there is something to back up your claim it was stolen. In the ops case he is claiming the landlord has duped him into paying his bill. A list of a few weeks details of money placed in the machine and corresponding meter readings would be an example. If there was nothing needed to back up a complaint then there is the potential for a large amount of vexatious complaints. Obviously there will be exceptions to this but I think it is a reasonable thing to ask for.

That's what I said. As long as there is something to investigate.

would that not be a crime in itself, making a vexatious complaint wasting theb garda time etc? apologies slightly OT

Jo King · 01-02-2011 6:07pm

Our man in Havana wrote: »

If people have been wronged they are entitled to sue. The courts are not places for moral judgement.

The victim of an assault is entitled to sue. It does not mean the guards ignore a complaint of assault and tell him to sue.

There are moral judgements made in the courts all of the time. In theft the court is asked to decide whether conduct is dishonest. Howm much more of a moral judgement is there?

The o/p approached a huard. He has given example of the consumption of electricity on a number of occasions. He has been given if unofficially an explanation by the ESb as to the reason. These facts disclose a crime if true. There does not have to be anything stolen. Guards are working in the permafrost of the Larceny Act of 1916 which was abolished years ago.
Property includes intangible property. Getting somebody to pay your bills by dishonesty is a crime under the Theft Act.
A phone call to the ESB to ascertain that there is a bill on the account. If there is a check on the balance before and after will show something is going on. THe o/p has said the landlord had somebody work on the meter. The ESB can investiagate tampering with the meter.
Guards ask fro information which would be covered by the Data Protection all the time. they are always asking shops for video recordings of things that happened on the street outside the shop. I have never heard of a successful defence that the recording was given in breach of the data protection act and should be excluded from evidence.

MagicSean · 01-02-2011 6:41pm

Jo King wrote: »

The victim of an assault is entitled to sue. It does not mean the guards ignore a complaint of assault and tell him to sue.

There are moral judgements made in the courts all of the time. In theft the court is asked to decide whether conduct is dishonest. Howm much more of a moral judgement is there?

The o/p approached a huard. He has given example of the consumption of electricity on a number of occasions. He has been given if unofficially an explanation by the ESb as to the reason. These facts disclose a crime if true. There does not have to be anything stolen. Guards are working in the permafrost of the Larceny Act of 1916 which was abolished years ago.
Property includes intangible property. Getting somebody to pay your bills by dishonesty is a crime under the Theft Act.
A phone call to the ESB to ascertain that there is a bill on the account. If there is a check on the balance before and after will show something is going on. THe o/p has said the landlord had somebody work on the meter. The ESB can investiagate tampering with the meter.
Guards ask fro information which would be covered by the Data Protection all the time. they are always asking shops for video recordings of things that happened on the street outside the shop. I have never heard of a successful defence that the recording was given in breach of the data protection act and should be excluded from evidence.

I never said the op wasn't the victim of a crime or that the Garda he spoke to was right. I never said something had to be stolen for a crime to be committed nor that a person should sue rather than make a criminal complaint. I'm surprised at your posts in this thread to be honest as they read more like rants against the Gardaí as opposed to your usual good standard of posting. And i have a problem with your tarring all Gardai with the useless brush. Very few Gardaí on regular duty would even know about the Larceny Act due to the heavy recruitment over the last ten years so your assertion that they work under the act is just wrong. I'm sure a look into your own profession would uncover some useless and outdated colleagues but i doubt you would be happy to be compared to them.

Lantus · 02-02-2011 12:25am

You'll get nothing of this scammer I fear. He practices his art well in a country where more than a blind eye is turned because one day they might want to do it themselves....

Keep all your reciepts on power bought. Try to get something from esb stating the power consumption and what has been inputted into the box financially if you can.

withholding rent may just prompt the landlord to withhold any deposit which may just play into his hands.

The small claims court may be a solution.

Jo King · 02-02-2011 11:55am

k_mac wrote: »

I never said the op wasn't the victim of a crime or that the Garda he spoke to was right. I never said something had to be stolen for a crime to be committed nor that a person should sue rather than make a criminal complaint. I'm surprised at your posts in this thread to be honest as they read more like rants against the Gardaí as opposed to your usual good standard of posting. And i have a problem with your tarring all Gardai with the useless brush. Very few Gardaí on regular duty would even know about the Larceny Act due to the heavy recruitment over the last ten years so your assertion that they work under the act is just wrong. I'm sure a look into your own profession would uncover some useless and outdated colleagues but i doubt you would be happy to be compared to them.

What you did do was make excuses for that guard, make some ludicrous propositions of law and make comments about theft that are rooted in the Larceny act regime. The reason the Theft Act was introduced was to emulate the English Theft Acts 1968 to 1978 where offences proven by introducing sufficient evidence of dishonest appropriation of tangible and intangible property. I asked if there have been any prosecutions under Section 6 of the Theft Act. Silence.
Does this imply that no one in Ireland acts dishonestly in a manner calculated to cause gain for himself or loss to another? Or does it mean that prosecutors do not bring the charge because they are clueless about it?
I have had a number of experiences with garda in relation to the theft Acts. None of them positive. Far too quick to say it is civil, can't get evidence etc.

MagicSean · 03-02-2011 8:19am

Jo King wrote: »

What you did do was make excuses for that guard, make some ludicrous propositions of law and make comments about theft that are rooted in the Larceny act regime.

I've read over my posts and i can't see where I did any of this.

Jo King wrote: »

The reason the Theft Act was introduced was to emulate the English Theft Acts 1968 to 1978 where offences proven by introducing sufficient evidence of dishonest appropriation of tangible and intangible property. I asked if there have been any prosecutions under Section 6 of the Theft Act. Silence.

I don't know if it's ever been prosecuted. But the ops case seems to fit Section 6 more than section 4. I have heard of charges being brought but I don't know how they proceeded in court.

Jo King wrote: »

Does this imply that no one in Ireland acts dishonestly in a manner calculated to cause gain for himself or loss to another? Or does it mean that prosecutors do not bring the charge because they are clueless about it?

Maybe it means that, like you, prosecutors prefer to use the wider definition under Section 4

Jo King wrote: »

I have had a number of experiences with garda in relation to the theft Acts. None of them positive. Far too quick to say it is civil, can't get evidence etc.

I'm sorry to hear that. I have had a number of bad experiences with solicitors, both personally and professionally, but I don't assume they are all useless because of it.

Lone Stone · 03-02-2011 6:05pm

Hello thanks for all the interesting replies,

Its now over a week since we stopped paying our rent and im just back home now got of college early this week, Still no word from our landlord, Power went again today.

Still waiting to hear back from the prtb and threshold, One of the other guys i live with is going to talk to a solicitor friend of his about this, Also turns out a friend of our's actually works for the prtb so maybe we can get some thing done quicker.

And id just like to say we dont want to sue the guy i really dont give a crap about suing someone were good tenants we havent done a bad thing or thrashed the place or had wild parties, We come in sunday leave thursday/friday and payed out rent on time. We treated him with some respect and gave him the benefit of the doubt and now the guys ignoring us.

If we wanted to cause him hassle we could have gone on about a few other issues we have had with the place but we didnt, He seemed like a sound enough guy so we gave him time to get the situation fixed but like ive said before several time's he has just lied to us and phobbed us of and now he's ignoring us since last thursday when we asked him to come down and speak with us about the situation.

I dont know why he hasnt got in touch with us, He's playing childish game i have a feeling he's going to try kick us out at the end of the month and play dumb on the whole situation, But if we have to we will take him to court. I think i will try the guards one more time and see if i can get some thing done. We have been told twice by the esb that he was in arrears/debt.

Anyway ive no idea what to do now no one is getting back to us, Guards dont give a crap and we have no idea whats going on with the land lord. I have been taking note's from some of your replies tho and i will bring it up when i speak to the guards next time. Thanks for the helpful feedback

drunkmonkey · 03-02-2011 6:11pm

I thought you said the landlord lived upstairs, would you not try knocking on the door.

Lone Stone · 04-02-2011 3:11pm

drunkmonkey wrote: »

I thought you said the landlord lived upstairs, would you not try knocking on the door.

Well not exactly, we live in a house thats attached to a building on the right, which is a shop and he live's above that shop. Why we would knock in now ? its up to him to come to see us, Its not like we havent been talking to him on the phone and sending him letter's and txt message's havent got him to come down what would knocking on his door do ? He's hardly going to come down when he see's us at his door since he's been bloody ignoring us.

Victor · 04-02-2011 9:22pm

1. Turn off everything electrical in your place and check if the meter is still indicating usage. I wonder if you are paying for the landlord's shop and home electricity also.

2. Go talk to the landlord. If necessary, send someone in a "landlord sweater".* If ye want a problem solved, you need to sort it yourselves.

* An item of clothing, typically worn by a young female so as to induce a landlord to look benevolently at the non-payment of rent or similar matter.

ABajaninCork · 05-02-2011 6:12pm

I agree with Victor. Turn everything electrical off and take a reading if you can. I'd also suggest taking a picture of the meter as you take the reading.

Then when you return, read the meter again, and take another picture. Compare the two, and you likely have your answer...

But I am curious to know. If it's proved the landlord's using you to pay off his bill, why would you NOT want to sue in small claims/call the gards?

Land Lord duped us into clearing his debt with the esb

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