Fine Gael & Minimum Wage

rodento

Its not looking good for our ecomony, with thinking like this

Fine Gael will be able to secure EU approval to reverse the cut in the minimum wage made in the Budget, the party says, writes Sarah Collins.
The wage cut is a lynchpin in the EU-IMF bailout deal, but trade unionists have alleged that it is being superimposed by Brussels as a means of deflating the economy out of trouble.
Finance spokesman Michael Noonan told reporters in Brussels yesterday that the move would have no bearing on the Government's Budget targets.
"There is no fiscal implication because it's the employer that's paying it," he said

Shea O'Meara

Minimum wage should be the very, very last thing to be cut.
After lowering ministerial wages to the national average, telling Anglo to go **** itself.....etc.

sligopark

Shea O'Meara wrote: »

Minimum wage should be the very, very last thing to be cut.
After lowering ministerial wages to the national average, telling Anglo to go **** itself.....etc.

Agreed in the main but the reduction in minimum wage is here to stay even if labour got a majority vote (personally I think they would make life worse for those on the lower wage very quickly)

lowering ministerial wages to an average of anything would never happen under labour either - nor any other main stream party including sf

anglo irish is another thing - should have been closed down at the beginning of the realisation of the black hole and its gamblers shown the beaten docket...

astrofool

Our wage levels should at best, be about the EU average (exclude the eastern bloc if you need to). This includes the min wage.

Anything else is paying ourselves too much and sets us up as a high cost economy top to bottom.

FG are counteracting this by lowering the employer PRSI rate on low wage earners, so the effect will be much the same.

wolfpawnat

I am currently unemployed, but it sickens me to see those on min wage to be so badly attacked in the last budget. They have suffered in EVERY area, tax, pay cuts, drop in education, health and other areas.

They should be encouraged to be working and not attacked for it. They have the most thankless and usually horribly mudane work!

Einhard

astrofool wrote: »

Our wage levels should at best, be about the EU average (exclude the eastern bloc if you need to). This includes the min wage.

Anything else is paying ourselves too much and sets us up as a high cost economy top to bottom.

FG are counteracting this by lowering the employer PRSI rate on low wage earners, so the effect will be much the same.

It's all well and good to baldly state that our minimum wage should be the EU average whilst ignoring the fact that our goods and services are generally well above average. The concept of the minimum wage is to allow the lowest paid to at least cover the essentials, and enjoy a basic standard of living- to slash it to the extent where neither of those can be realised somewhat defeats the whole purpose.

Killer Pigeon

rodento wrote: »

Its not looking good for our ecomony, with thinking like this

Fine Gael will be able to secure EU approval to reverse the cut in the minimum wage made in the Budget, the party says, writes Sarah Collins.
The wage cut is a lynchpin in the EU-IMF bailout deal, but trade unionists have alleged that it is being superimposed by Brussels as a means of deflating the economy out of trouble.
Finance spokesman Michael Noonan told reporters in Brussels yesterday that the move would have no bearing on the Government's Budget targets.
"There is no fiscal implication because it's the employer that's paying it," he said

OP, you didn't have to cut the text size to a minimum did you?

Shea O'Meara

I've raised this before.
Minimum wage workers are private citizens. I find it strange how we can casualy discuss paying them too much in light of the economic climate. We are not as quick to move on cutting any state workers salary, (politicians/judges/RTE) yet we are happy to discuss the salaries of the lowest paid by law, for the good of the country. Who the hell are Brian Cowen/Lenihan to tell a private Irish citizen to take a cut with their record? It's laughable.

The minimum wage is there to stop employers paying little or nothing. It's a saftey net, already at minimum, hence the name.

RachaelVO

The only reason to cut the minimum wages is to cut the cost of living. How can it be expected for people to pay the prices. I'll give you an example, since leaving Ireland (which broke my heart btw), this is a quick breakdown of some price differences between Ireland and the Netherlands

Fags
Netherlands 5.00
Ireland 8.50

Crate of beer (24 bottles 33cl)
Netherlands 5-8 euro
Ireland 20.00 (at least)

Coffee (ground filter coffee (500g)
Netherlands 1.80-4.00
Ireland (4.00-7.00

That's just 3 price differences that I can think of off the top of my head. If I had a supermarket receipt I could go on.

So it's all well and good saying Irelands wages should be in line with Europe, but how can they when in Ireland the prices are robbing people without the gun... I just don't get that, so if anyone can explain it to me I love to hear it (Im not being sarcy there, I really would love to know)

Killer Pigeon

It's all about the Consumer Price Index people, all about the Consumer Price Index. Especially when comparing Ireland to other countries.

later12

RachaelVO wrote: »

So it's all well and good saying Irelands wages should be in line with Europe, but how can they when in Ireland the prices are robbing people without the gun

I wouldn't call cigarette, beer and coffee price differentials 'robbing people with a gun' exactly, but of course these differences exist.

Has it ever occurred to anyone that these price differences exist because of differences in public expenditure policy and wage restraint or lack of restraint?

wolfpawnat

That's something I have noticed. Everything in the local Tesco's has gone up in price. Only a few cents each eg

Tesco cherry bakewells - were 99c for 6 now €1.05

Cow and Gate Follow-On Milk - was €9.35 now €9.39

Huggies nappies economy pack - was €10.49 now €11.69

I know this isn't much but to someone who has had €40 a pay cut a week plus the USC, it adds up!!!!

Another thing. Iceland supermarket in London charges 59p for 2Litres of milk (approx €0.76) We pat €1.49 for supermarket own brand. Sickening!!! >:(

RachaelVO

later10 wrote: »

I wouldn't call cigarette, beer and coffee price differentials 'robbing people with a gun' exactly, but of course these differences exist.

Has it ever occurred to anyone that these price differences exist because of differences in public expenditure policy and wage restraint or lack of restraint?

The coffee, beer and cigs was just what came to mind. Stuff is a whole lot cheaper here though. Nappies, baby milk, wipes, food, clothing... sooooo much cheaper. The wages are lower here though, but you do get more for your tax and insurance money though! Huge differences.

Can I ask what do you mean by (sorry may be a thick question)

[/QUOTE]Has it ever occurred to anyone that these price differences exist because of differences in public expenditure policy and wage restraint or lack of restraint?[/QUOTE]

I don't really get what you mean!

RachaelVO

Killer Pigeon wrote: »

It's all about the Consumer Price Index people, all about the Consumer Price Index. Especially when comparing Ireland to other countries.

Now I have to ask another stupid question

How does the Consumer Price Index threaten the minimum wage? (or is that what you're saying?). I know prices in Ireland were always more expensive than other countries, but there is, I suppose extra costs in getting the goods to the country! There is significant differences though...

Sh1te, I'm getting myself all confused now!!!!!!

Sand

I think the minimum wage is effectively a bad idea overall: either its set too low and thus is pointless, or its set too high and discourages employers from taking on workers.

But I do believe that any cuts to the minimum wage ought to be much less than cuts to social welfare payments, to maintain and indeed increase the incentive to go out there and look for work.

Fags
Netherlands 5.00
Ireland 8.50

Crate of beer (24 bottles 33cl)
Netherlands 5-8 euro
Ireland 20.00 (at least)

Coffee (ground filter coffee (500g)
Netherlands 1.80-4.00
Ireland (4.00-7.00

We could just directly subsidise the local offlicence and cut out the middle man.

So it's all well and good saying Irelands wages should be in line with Europe, but how can they when in Ireland the prices are robbing people without the gun... I just don't get that, so if anyone can explain it to me I love to hear it (Im not being sarcy there, I really would love to know)

Prices and income are linked. Indeed, one could say, that on an overall level income chasing prices is like a dog chasing its tail. Wealth is only increased by increased productivity (produding more for less, not paying yourself more for the same). If income is lowered (and much of Irish incomes are artificially inflated on borrowed money) then prices will fall with them.

galwayrush

I can't get the dole or a minimun wage being self employed. This week , i took in 120 euro for a 50 hour week.

RachaelVO

Holy sh1t, are ya serious? That is bloody dreadful. That would make ya wonder what they hell you're working for.

Killer Pigeon

RachaelVO wrote: »

Now I have to ask another stupid question

How does the Consumer Price Index threaten the minimum wage?

I. was. not. sug. gest. ing. that.

galwayrush

RachaelVO wrote: »

Holy sh1t, are ya serious? That is bloody dreadful. That would make ya wonder what they hell you're working for.

I know,:( that money has to look after a wife with cancer and 2 kids.

RandomName2

wolfpawnat wrote: »

I am currently unemployed, but it sickens me to see those on min wage to be so badly attacked in the last budget. They have suffered in EVERY area, tax, pay cuts, drop in education, health and other areas.

They should be encouraged to be working and not attacked for it. They have the most thankless and usually horribly mudane work!

I am currently unemployed and would like to see the cost of living go down in Ireland. The first way to go about that is to cut wages!

(It will also encourage business growth and... guess what? More jobs)

goose2005

rodento wrote: »

The wage cut is a lynchpin in the EU-IMF bailout deal,

No it isn't. Taking people from 17k a year to 14k a year will not save the economy, especially as it reduces consumer spending and increases social welfare.

astrofool wrote: »

Our wage levels should at best, be about the EU average (exclude the eastern bloc if you need to). This includes the min wage.

Our minimum wage is already lower than Malta, Belgium, France, Luzembourg, Denmark, Netherlands, and the UK, while Irish groceries are the second-most expensive in the world (Norway is 1st)

Anything else is paying ourselves too much and sets us up as a high cost economy top to bottom.

That's nonsense, the wages of the lowest-paid don't have a great effect on the highest-paid.

goose2005

Sand wrote: »

I think the minimum wage is effectively a bad idea overall: either its set too low and thus is pointless, or its set too high and discourages employers from taking on workers.

I think there's a third option you're overlooking :rolleyes:

But I do believe that any cuts to the minimum wage ought to be much less than cuts to social welfare payments, to maintain and indeed increase the incentive to go out there and look for work.

Exactly, my good sir - you can kick the lowest-paid workers in the balls, so long as you kick the unemployed in the face. I mean, all 400,000 on the dole would get jobs tomorrow if we cut it by half!

Prices and income are linked. Indeed, one could say, that on an overall level income chasing prices is like a dog chasing its tail. Wealth is only increased by increased productivity (produding more for less, not paying yourself more for the same). If income is lowered (and much of Irish incomes are artificially inflated on borrowed money) then prices will fall with them.

But why on earth should that start with the poorest. Being cut from 80k to 70k will make no great difference - 17k to 14k will wreck your life.

RachaelVO

galwayrush wrote: »

I know,:( that money has to look after a wife with cancer and 2 kids.

Jaysus, that's brutally tough. I know I'm going off topic now, but is there nothing your entitled to? How can you support your and be there for your family working 50 hours a week getting your lunch money?

ilovesleep

goose2005 wrote: »

No it isn't. Taking people from 17k a year to 14k a year will not save the economy, especially as it reduces consumer spending and increases social welfare.



Our minimum wage is already lower than Malta, Belgium, France, Luzembourg, Denmark, Netherlands, and the UK, while Irish groceries are the second-most expensive in the world (Norway is 1st)

Not to mention we have the highest electrity costs in europe.

Spudmonkey

Einhard wrote: »

It's all well and good to baldly state that our minimum wage should be the EU average whilst ignoring the fact that our goods and servuces are generally well above average. The concept of the minimum wage is to allow the lowest paid to at least cover the essentials, and enjoy a basic standard of living- to slash it to the extent where neither of those can be realised somewhat defeats the whole purpose.

They won't fall unless wages themselves fall. One sustains the other.

rodento

Shea O'Meara wrote: »

We are not as quick to move on cutting any state workers salary.

Err... I thought state employees net pay was down at least 20% in the last year:eek:

We as a country have to reduce our cost base, overheads everywhere have to be slashed and that includes wages and social welfare.

You can't just say its OK if our costs are higher cause we pay more, when the euro is a set value accross europe.

Thats called economic suicide

Shea O'Meara

RandomName2 wrote: »

I am currently unemployed and would like to see the cost of living go down in Ireland. The first way to go about that is to cut wages!

(It will also encourage business growth and... guess what? More jobs)

Old wives tale. Nobody being able to afford a house didn't, (isn't notibly) bring prices down. Hungry people will pay what they need to to eat.
It will create jobs in the sense that I was paying you 200 a week, now I'm hiring two of you for the same price to me. Of course if I start to make more profit, I'll give you all raises:rolleyes:.

rodento wrote: »

Err... I thought state employees net pay was down at least 20% in the last year:eek:

I believe they got to debate the issue, even as public/state employees. For some reason private low paid workers aren't even consulted.

Cutting minimum wage was/is a statement more than doing much good for the economy. I can't seem to justify it, when you look at Anglo for instance.
We always hear about whats good for the economy is good for the people. On a very broad scale, yes. However, the most a minimum wage worker can expect, should the economy improve, is a glut of minimum wage jobs.

ted1

we need to cut it a lot more. Our base salary is too high. The lowest paid uneducated employee needs to be on a lower wage than a person with a leaving cert they in turn need to be on less than a person with a cert who needs to be on less than a person with a diploma who needs to be on less than a person with a degree and so on. Now i am talking about starting salaries as i realise experience and performance will eventually win out. But with out cutting the lower salary you can't cut the higher salary otherwise their is no incentive to work hard

rodento

Shea O'Meara wrote: »

I believe they got to debate the issue, even as public/state employees. For some reason private low paid workers aren't even consulted.

The loss of earnings has more to do with extra tax's and nothing to do with the croke park deal. Average earnings are down about 5000 at mo.

Thing is one just can't cut from one sector, everyone has to pay there share and that includes those at the bottom and on social welfare. Otherwise why work if you are better off unemployed:eek:

I'm truely scared when FG come out by crap like well its the private sector paying... Shows they have little poor idea of how to trun this country around(No wonder enda doesn't want to really debate)

We need a proper property crash as well, Nama needs to start shifting properties or at least renting more of them to help the cost of overheads to come down, otherwise we will see more business's shuting down when lease agreements come to an end

RandomName2

Shea O'Meara wrote: »

Old wives tale. Nobody being able to afford a house didn't, (isn't notibly) bring prices down.

Obviously you missed the property crash :eek:


People having high wages and getting unreasonably high mortgages and spending vast sums for property (as dictated by the market) is WHY we are currently in a depression.

---

Multinationals moved en masse out of Ireland due to high costs in Ireland (corporation tax didn't nearly offset high wages, etc).

The banking crisis in America generated unprecedented worry concerning the strength of the Irish banks.

The nominal value of what peoples' mortgages were secured on (i.e. their houses) went down... quite often below the value of their mortgages (negative equity). The vast sums of money being owed to banks across the island did not have adequate security.

Banks became far more cautious about lending. This reduced the amount of people being able to buy property. Because people were unable to buy property for the extant prices, these prices had to fall. This, of course, affected the market value of property in general (producing further negative effects for an economy predicated on the property bubble).

---

johnnyskeleton

Shea O'Meara wrote: »

The minimum wage is there to stop employers paying little or nothing. It's a saftey net, already at minimum, hence the name.

I agree with you in principle. The problem is that the minimum wage was artificially increased to purchase votes during the bubble by FF.

In 2000 it was €5.58, in 2004 it was €7, in May 2005 it was €7.65, in Jan 07 it was €8.30 and in July 07 it was €8.65.

The economy overall is heading back to 2004 or before, so cutting the minimum wage is part of that. The real cuts should be to social welfare and public sector pay to bring them to the equivalent 2004 levels too.

For those that argue that things are already too expensive, that is missing the point - wages aren't high because prices are too high - prices are high because wages are too high. Thus, as wages reduce prices reduce as people become more price senstive i.e. not buying frivolously and buying the cheaper goods from the cheaper supermarket.

later12

Not only is the above true, it is important to note that as well as lowering prices generally, restraining national wage levels tends to have a disporportionately positive effect upon indigenous industry, which can compete on a more rigourous and comeptitive level with international manufacturers.

irishh_bob

im with economist paul sommerville on this one , dont touch minimum wage untill sheltered sectors of the economy like consultants , GP,s , gentists and to a lesser extent solicitors are forced into the cometitive market , that way , the reduction in minimum wage will be cushioned

wolfpawnat

RandomName2 wrote: »

I am currently unemployed and would like to see the cost of living go down in Ireland. The first way to go about that is to cut wages!

(It will also encourage business growth and... guess what? More jobs)

That's all well and good, but we can't reduce wages until the cost of living is reduced as that will only land more of us in debt! It either has to be reduce everything all at once or not touch either!

Laminations

I think Ben Dunne is focusing on the real wage problems

As for the economy at large,he thinks there too many managers and administrators,with one manager for every three employees where one for every ten would do. Surprisingly,he doesn't think wages of low paid workers are a problem for Irish business.

He also cites commercial leases as the biggest barrier for business and employment and he blames NAMA for holding these high by retaining large swathes of property from the Market.

johnnyskeleton

irishh_bob wrote: »

im with economist paul sommerville on this one , dont touch minimum wage untill sheltered sectors of the economy like consultants , GP,s , gentists and to a lesser extent solicitors are forced into the cometitive market , that way , the reduction in minimum wage will be cushioned

That's such a cop out though - point to specifics where there are uncompetitive practices and then remove those practices immediately. What's the problem? Why does it have to be such a big drama? If there are clear anti-competitive practicies, give them a couple of weeks to get rid of them, or else prosecute them in the Central Criminal Court.

I think the reality is that the "anti-competitive" practices of the "sheltered sectors" are nowhere near as much as people make them out to be. Arguably, the biggest problem is in public sector pay to professionals, but that problem is with public sector pay all around.

Further, there is no real cause and effect to this. Altering the professions will not make Ireland significantly more competitive. It is a pure political position, and has no real economic logic behind it. You might get a GP visit fee down from €45 to €30, but that is not going to create a single further job, nor will it assist companies to retain existing staff.

As I said above, I think a minimum wage is a good thing. However, the current minimum wage is too high and it is damaging the economy. It was too high during the bubble, and now things have deteriorated significantly both in Ireland and abroad, it is even more important that the minimum wage reflects straightened economic times.

Bottle_of_Smoke

RachaelVO wrote: »

The only reason to cut the minimum wages is to cut the cost of living. How can it be expected for people to pay the prices. I'll give you an example, since leaving Ireland (which broke my heart btw), this is a quick breakdown of some price differences between Ireland and the Netherlands

Fags
Netherlands 5.00
Ireland 8.50

Crate of beer (24 bottles 33cl)
Netherlands 5-8 euro
Ireland 20.00 (at least)

Coffee (ground filter coffee (500g)
Netherlands 1.80-4.00
Ireland (4.00-7.00

That's just 3 price differences that I can think of off the top of my head. If I had a supermarket receipt I could go on.

So it's all well and good saying Irelands wages should be in line with Europe, but how can they when in Ireland the prices are robbing people without the gun... I just don't get that, so if anyone can explain it to me I love to hear it (Im not being sarcy there, I really would love to know)

where are you getting 24 bottles of beer for 5euro? cheapest cans I've seen are in albert heijn for 38c. 24 of them would be 9euro

Also I don't buy filter coffee but the instant stuff is definitely more expensive than Ireland.