TOM ELLIOT; Yet another unforced Own Goal?

madraj55

Tom Elliot's tenure as UUP leader, already surely holed below the waterline, seems to have a death wish for the party. He has now got into a needless row with a relative about the vexed Fermanagh Sth Tyrone seat and it's remote chances of ever being a unionist seat again. In the process, he's letting potential natural UUP voters see that his concerns are far from most of theirs by indulging in a petty quarrel over the number of Unionist candidates for the seat in the Assembly elections. Best to stick to farming, Tom. you're out of your depth in the politics game.

Essexboy

madraj55 wrote: »

Tom Elliot's tenure as UUP leader, already surely holed below the waterline, seems to have a death wish for the party. He has now got into a needless row with a relative about the vexed Fermanagh Sth Tyrone seat and it's remote chances of ever being a unionist seat again. In the process, he's letting potential natural UUP voters see that his concerns are far from most of theirs by indulging in a petty quarrel over the number of Unionist candidates for the seat in the Assembly elections. Best to stick to farming, Tom. you're out of your depth in the politics game.

Source?

sligopark

Tom Elliot? UUP? The words 'so' and 'what' come to mind ...

madraj55

Essexboy wrote: »

Source?

Last Friday's newsletter [28/01] or even Thursday's NL. Front page.

nordydan

The UUP haven't a clue what they are at or where they are going. I presume you are talking about Tom Elliott's cousin running in Fermanagh & South Tyrone for Traditional Unionist Bigot

bobbysands81

madraj55 wrote: »

Tom Elliot's tenure as UUP leader, already surely holed below the waterline, seems to have a death wish for the party. He has now got into a needless row with a relative about the vexed Fermanagh Sth Tyrone seat and it's remote chances of ever being a unionist seat again. In the process, he's letting potential natural UUP voters see that his concerns are far from most of theirs by indulging in a petty quarrel over the number of Unionist candidates for the seat in the Assembly elections. Best to stick to farming, Tom. you're out of your depth in the politics game.

Stick with the dinosaurs Tom, sounds like you're doing a great job!!!

madraj55

nordydan wrote: »

The UUP haven't a clue what they are at or where they are going. I presume you are talking about Tom Elliott's cousin running in Fermanagh & South Tyrone for Traditional Unionist Bigot

That's right, Nordydan. It's hard to see how Elliot could have msade a worse start to his er.....leadership, of the UUP. He is like most unionist politicians. they prefer to follow the worst of their voters, rather than risk leading them in case they might lose the votes.

Bottle_of_Smoke

Its really really bizarre that party. They just don't seem have gotten that they can't rival DUP for the hardline Orangeman vote but for some reason won't accept this and try all the same.

Result is the only decent politicians they have are leaving in droves. Most recent being the flash Harry lad who's now in the Alliance party.

Can almost picture Edward Carson sitting on a cloud facepalming.

madraj55

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »

Its really really bizarre that party. They just don't seem have gotten that they can't rival DUP for the hardline Orangeman vote but for some reason won't accept this and try all the same.

Result is the only decent politicians they have are leaving in droves. Most recent being the flash Harry lad who's now in the Alliance party.

Can almost picture Edward Carson sitting on a cloud facepalming.

BoS I didn't think I'd be updating this thread today with yet another og from Elliot. Now, according to today's 'Tele' he's just lost a battle with the tory govt, in failing to get them to amend the St Andrew's agreement where it deals with the entitlement to FM post. The paranoia with unionists about this is starting to expose their bigotry to as many as possible. What is the point of trying to change the rule back to the GFA which says it's the leader of the biggest GROUPING in assembly who is FM instead of the biggest Party? Isn't Marty entitled to the FM post as leader of the nationalist group [assuming they have the numbers],as well as being leader of the biggest nationalist party? So why are they dancing on the head of a proverbial pin over what is a dual post with equal powers. If this is what they're getting their smalls in a twist over now, what will they be like when nationalists are finally the main N Ireland community?.

Bottle_of_Smoke

Interesting to read Elliot had SDLP support.

I reckon this will be a really really bad election for UUP. Not sure who's gonna get their votes though. Some to Alliance and TUV but I reckon most to DUP given they are the only party with the capability to be bigger than Sinn Fein.

I think the fuss is ridiculous tbh. In practical terms it is a position of joint authority. It was a much bigger deal to actually agree to power sharing than SF getting a first minister.

I suppose the only way I can understand it is unionists will be annoyed the IRA will be seen as a legitimate force around the world now that their chief negotiater is the leader of the parliament.

madraj55

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »

Interesting to read Elliot had SDLP support.

I reckon this will be a really really bad election for UUP. Not sure who's gonna get their votes though. Some to Alliance and TUV but I reckon most to DUP given they are the only party with the capability to be bigger than Sinn Fein.

I think the fuss is ridiculous tbh. In practical terms it is a position of joint authority. It was a much bigger deal to actually agree to power sharing than SF getting a first minister.

I suppose the only way I can understand it is unionists will be annoyed the IRA will be seen as a legitimate force around the world now that their chief negotiater is the leader of the parliament.

That's just the sdlp spiting the shinners for the sake of it. As to the UUP votes, they would be more likely to DUP but a lot will simply stay at home
and not bother voting anymore. In fact the unionist parties aren't so much bothered about SF becoming FM for it's own sake, as they are about what the demographic breakdown revealed by this will show, as it' will be more and more difficult for them to get majorites in either Westminster and/or Stormont a few years from now. The tide is going out and they don't like it.

Bottle_of_Smoke

madraj55 wrote: »

That's just the sdlp spiting the shinners for the sake of it. As to the UUP votes, they would be more likely to DUP but a lot will simply stay at home
and not bother voting anymore. In fact the unionist parties aren't so much bothered about SF becoming FM for it's own sake, as they are about what the demographic breakdown revealed by this will show, as it' will be more and more difficult for them to get majorites in either Westminster and/or Stormont a few years from now. The tide is going out and they don't like it.

I don't think it reveals anything about demographics though. Sinn Fein are only the biggest party because there are 4 unionist parties and only two nationalist.
There's also the alliance party who claim to be border neutral but they're definitely more blue than green. Otherwise they wouldn't have an MP in a loyalist constituency.

If you were to add up all the unionist parties votes and compare them to Sinn Fein/SDLP votes there'd be significantly more for the unionist side.

Also I don't think it would matter in Stormont as you need a cross community majority. And in Westminister doesn't matter at all as most nationalists don't take their seats. As well as the actual numbers there from the north being minimal for the size of the parliament.

madraj55

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »

I don't think it reveals anything about demographics though. Sinn Fein are only the biggest party because there are 4 unionist parties and only two nationalist.
There's also the alliance party who claim to be border neutral but they're definitely more blue than green. Otherwise they wouldn't have an MP in a loyalist constituency.

If you were to add up all the unionist parties votes and compare them to Sinn Fein/SDLP votes there'd be significantly more for the unionist side.

Also I don't think it would matter in Stormont as you need a cross community majority. And in Westminister doesn't matter at all as most nationalists don't take their seats. As well as the actual numbers there from the north being minimal for the size of the parliament.

In fact there are only two unionist parties who get the bulk of the votes, DUP and UUP although even the latter is moribund because their voters are apathetic about turning out and also these stay-at-home unionists would never vote DUP. The TUV is a minor party which adds little to the overall unionist body politic. Nationalist voters tend to be more active in turnout so the likelihood of a Sinn Fein FM isn't being dismissed by unionists themselves and for good reason. Tom Elliot has blundered in his failed attempt to get the govt to 'fix the St Andrews agreement to prevent NOT ONly a SF First minister, but ANY Nationalist FM, so that tells you what contempt they have for democracy. They never changed their attitude to Catholic votes since the 60s. Unionists still think they have a right to rule alone indefinitely.

Bottle_of_Smoke

madraj55 wrote: »

In fact there are only two unionist parties who get the bulk of the votes, DUP and UUP although even the latter is moribund because their voters are apathetic about turning out and also these stay-at-home unionists would never vote DUP. The TUV is a minor party which adds little to the overall unionist body politic.

There's the PUP aswell. Though I acknowledge they only have(had) one MLA in Dawn Purvis who has now left.

TUV its hard to say. They got a lot of votes in the European elections but failed in the general
With alliance they get a few seats and I would bet 90% of their voters would vote to stay in the union in a border referendum

You get my point though. It doesn't mean as much for demographics because the unionist vote is a bit more splintered. I just think Elliot is a bigot full stop

Nationalist voters tend to be more active in turnout so the likelihood of a Sinn Fein FM isn't being dismissed by unionists themselves and for good reason. Tom Elliot has blundered in his failed attempt to get the govt to 'fix the St Andrews agreement to prevent NOT ONly a SF First minister, but ANY Nationalist FM, so that tells you what contempt they have for democracy. They never changed their attitude to Catholic votes since the 60s. Unionists still think they have a right to rule alone indefinitely.

Yes that's certainly the case with the likes of Tom Elliot and Jim Allistair. I wouldn't tar all unionists with the same brush though. I don't think the likes of Trevor Ringland have that attitude at all.

madraj55

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »

There's the PUP aswell. Though I acknowledge they only have(had) one MLA in Dawn Purvis who has now left.

TUV its hard to say. They got a lot of votes in the European elections but failed in the general
With alliance they get a few seats and I would bet 90% of their voters would vote to stay in the union in a border referendum

You get my point though. It doesn't mean as much for demographics because the unionist vote is a bit more splintered. I just think Elliot is a bigot full stop



Yes that's certainly the case with the likes of Tom Elliot and Jim Allistair. I wouldn't tar all unionists with the same brush though. I don't think the likes of Trevor Ringland have that attitude at all.

Yes, BoS I take your point that there's less likelhood as things stand now, for Marty McG becoming FM, but down the road and certainly by the the centenary of the statelet's birth, demograhics will have slipped away from unionists which is worrying them already. Ringland lost his place in the UUP thanks to his not being a bigot but he and others may get another shot at returning if the party comes to it's senses and puts Elliot out of his misery and let Basil McCrea take over. Most Alliance voters would vote for the union as you say in a ref. even the Catholics among them, but I find that the support among catholics for the Union doesn't follow the logic through to voting for any unionist party so the census isn't really a reliable guide to the margins of community in elections in practice.

KeithAFC

That is why i want one Unionist party. Im sick of these other bum Unionist parties. Unite as one is what i want.

Bottle_of_Smoke

KeithAFC wrote: »

That is why i want one Unionist party. Im sick of these other bum Unionist parties. Unite as one is what i want.

Its impossible though. How could a secular rational unionist share a platform with the likes of DUP members who want the giants causeway information centre to provide a young earth creationist explanation of how it formed.

Also many unionists don't want to vote for homophobic anti-Irish bigots so if there was just one big unionist party they'd all have to vote Alliance/SDLP/Sinn Fein instead

KeithAFC

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »

Its impossible though. How could a secular rational unionist share a platform with the likes of DUP members who want the giants causeway information centre to provide a young earth creationist explanation of how it formed.

Also many unionists don't want to vote for homophobic anti-Irish bigots so if there was just one big unionist party they'd all have to vote Alliance/SDLP/Sinn Fein instead

Show two points of view, let the people make up their own minds. Simple as that.

Bottle_of_Smoke

KeithAFC wrote: »

Show two points of view, let the people make up their own minds. Simple as that.

How would that be possible for one party? The typical free-pres attitude is ''I can't leave my beliefs at the door when I walk into stormont/westminister''

I could not bring myself to vote for a party who didn't fire members for espousing creationist ideas for policy.

Like when Iris Robinson said homosexuality is worse than child abuse they didn't fire her. no don't think I could vote for anyone in that party after that to be honest.

KeithAFC

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »

How would that be possible for one party? The typical free-pres attitude is ''I can't leave my beliefs at the door when I walk into stormont/westminister''

I could not bring myself to vote for a party who didn't fire members for espousing creationist ideas for policy.

Like when Iris Robinson said homosexuality is worse than child abuse they didn't fire her. no don't think I could vote for anyone in that party after that to be honest.

Well the DUP is the largest Unionist party. If they unite, i think most Unionists will vote. Regardless of personal opinions on certain subjects as what most Unionists care about is the Union.

Bottle_of_Smoke

KeithAFC wrote: »

Well the DUP is the largest Unionist party. If they unite, i think most Unionists will vote. Regardless of personal opinions on certain subjects as what most Unionists care about is the Union.

Personally I don't think it matters. Regarding the union voting for DUP will not keep it intact and voting for Sinn Fein will not remove the border.

That decision is now with the people when border poll is called.

KeithAFC

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »

Personally I don't think it matters. Regarding the union voting for DUP will not keep it intact and voting for Sinn Fein will not remove the border.

That decision is now with the people when border poll is called.

Yeah but the voting for a united party would be important. The union is secure anyway but still.

nordydan

KeithAFC wrote: »

That is why i want one Unionist party. Im sick of these other bum Unionist parties. Unite as one is what i want.

Agree totally. Electoral results have shown that the less unionist candidates available, the more the overall unionist vote drops.
I applaud your logic