direct debit in UPC can be dangerous for your pocket

m4rkiz

to keep it short, that is an email that I've just sent them:

Customer number: XXXXXXXX

Hello,

I've just noticed that amount on my bill for last month somehow reached astronomic amount of €101.67.
Imagine my surprise as it supposed to be €39.75 (well, I heard that there may be some price changes in
January, but I wasn't noticed in writing - according to point 16 of your T&C You suppossed to do so -
btw. idea of displaying those price changes on your website, without texting, calling, sending mail or at least
an email is - politely speaking - not very good at all.)

As I see my Fibre Power Broadband 20Mb was disconnected and instead, for some reason I have
Fibre Power Broadband 30Mb now.

I did not ask for any changes in my subscriptions.

You failed to obtain My permission to do so, or even inform me in any way that there are changes coming.

After contacting Customer Services I was informed that those changes were made due to violation of
Acceptable usage policy.

First of all - there is no way for me to check amount of data transferred as there is no such functionality there.

Second of all, Your Acceptable usage policy clearly states that if your "unlimited" limits are not respected
(still, HOW I SUPPOSED TO KNOW THAT I AM OVER THE LIMIT???) You reserve a right to:

"Upgrade your package to a package with a higher data transfer limit with the corresponding higher monthly fee"

but that is clearly not what happened as same document clearly states that:

"250GB for Fibre Power Broadband 20Mb and 30Mb "

so, if there is no allowance difference between those packets why any change took place?

Summing up:

- there is no way for me to check if I am over the limit
- you didn't even try to contact me in any way to inform me about fact that this limit is exceeded
- my service was changed without any notice given
- my service was changed without any reason to do so

So, please revert those unauthorized changes in my subscriptions and amend my bill.

Regards,
Name

Chett

I'm in the exact same position so I am interested to see how this turns out.

I am about to ring UPC now to cancel my subscription with them and cancel my direct debit as soon as this ordeal is over. According to their terms and conditions, section 12, I have the right to withdraw without penalty as I was not informed of these changes in writing 30 days in advance. Very pissed off about this.

m4rkiz

what pisses me off most, is that they didn't even care enough to notice me in any way that i'am over the limit

if they know that i'am they should have enough decency to let me know in some way, that is no more than 10 minutes of work for one admin to set up some email warning for all of their customers from now on!

i can understand that they have some limits, they even clearly state that there is 120GB for 10Mb broadband, why not to do the same for 20Mb & 30Mb if there is an actual limit of 250GB that they enforcing?

but as i can clearly see now that they don't care about noticing of price increases, or fact that they changed my broadband speed

i'm not gonna stay with them, what if next month they claim that i downloaded 1000GB over "unlimited" 250GB and try to charge me € 30720 ?

"Impose a charge of 3 cent per megabyte or part thereof for exceeding your data transfer limit"

dub45

How do you get your bills normally? Are you sure you did not get your 14 days notice before they debited your bank account?

By the way you should cc your email to Comreg and ask them to regard it as an official complaint.

Also you may wish to be aware of this:

ComReg would like to advise consumers that any provision of a contract which sets usage thresholds, or describes what constitutes ‘fair’ or ‘acceptable’ use, should be clear and unambiguous, particularly where the service is described as being ‘unlimited’.

Usage thresholds or limits should be clearly set out, as should the manner in which they may be updated or amended.

ComReg expects each service provider to implement a clear, transparent and policy for dealing with customer usage above any set thresholds. The policy should set out the rules for contract termination, including penalties, the charges that shall apply for any use above the threshold/limit, and the policy regarding migration of the customer to other packages, if applicable.

vibe666

if you don't have any luck directly with UPC then you can get the bank to reverse the direct debit as they have taken an unauthorised amount out of your bank. then cancel the DD altogether and just pay manually every month via online banking (unless you cancel altogether) and leave them.

also, you *may* also be able to put a claim into the small claims court to get the money back, although you will want to confirm this with the citizen's advice bureau to be sure.

they may try and get you for breach of contract, but they breached their own terms of the contract by not informing you in writing of the 20mbps price changes, OR informing you they were going to overcharge you.

dub45

vibe666 wrote: »

if you don't have any luck directly with UPC then you can get the bank to reverse the direct debit as they have taken an unauthorised amount out of your bank. then cancel the DD altogether and just pay manually every month via online banking (unless you cancel altogether) and leave them.

also, you *may* also be able to put a claim into the small claims court to get the money back, although you will want to confirm this with the citizen's advice bureau to be sure.

they may try and get you for breach of contract, but they breached their own terms of the contract by not informing you in writing of the 20mbps price changes, OR informing you they were going to overcharge you.

You don't need to go the Small Claims Court there is provision in the direct debit system for having such claims refunded but the op has to check first if UPC gave proper notice. Everyone should stick to paper billing!

Chett

Could anybody tell me how I stop and close my direct debit with UPC. Is it done somewhere on their website, do I ask my bank....please don't tell me I have to ring up those morons at UPC again. I want them off my back NOW!
Thanks in advance if anyone knows.

vibe666

Chett wrote: »

Could anybody tell me how I stop and close my direct debit with UPC. Is it done somewhere on their website, do I ask my bank....please don't tell me I have to ring up those morons at UPC again. I want them off my back NOW!
Thanks in advance if anyone knows.

just call your bank and cancel it.

if you have online facilities with your bank, you may even be able to do it from there.

RoyalMarine

you will need to write a letter to the bank asking them to cease payments through direct debit to UPC.

billyboy01

Chett wrote: »

Could anybody tell me how I stop and close my direct debit with UPC. Is it done somewhere on their website, do I ask my bank....please don't tell me I have to ring up those morons at UPC again. I want them off my back NOW!
Thanks in advance if anyone knows.

Just ring there 1908 number and select the billing dept. When you get a customer rep, request to cancel your Direct Debit, they will ask you why. Just say to would prefer to pay by paper bill from now on, they will say ok, but tell you there is a charge of 2 euro for paper bills. When thats done hang up, and ring back and selected the customer support dept. and request to cancel your package with UPC with 30 days notice from now. So the next bill you will get will be a paper bill which you can pay at a post office in cash, and if they to screw you for a cancellation charge. Just pay the usage bill amount at the post office. I did this during the cancellation period from Dec 2010 to Jan 4th 2011, because of the price hike without a cancelling charge!

You can cancel your Direct Debit using your Online Banking. Once you have cancelled the Direct Debit with UPC.

Chett

Great, thanks all. I'm going to do that as soon as possible. A month and a half and I'm still not disconnected and they're still withdrawing money. I don't care if I start getting the "...your account is overdue, we are handing this over to our legal team yada yada yada...". I'm not paying the sneaky bastards another cent.



I'm actually a very happy person though.

dub45

Chett wrote: »

Could anybody tell me how I stop and close my direct debit with UPC. Is it done somewhere on their website, do I ask my bank....please don't tell me I have to ring up those morons at UPC again. I want them off my back NOW!
Thanks in advance if anyone knows.

You can get all the information you need about direct debits at www.ipso.ie.
It is quite shocking how little information is available to the ordinary person about the direct debit system. For example there is no information available in print in bank branches and most bank staff never mind the public have never heard of ipso.

Every person who agress to have a direct debit on their account should be automatically given a leaflet with all the necessary information in relation to their rights in the dd system and basic information like cancelling a dd.

According the rules of the dd system

You can cancel the Direct Debit Instruction by writing in good time to your Bank

Note that it is also advisable to inform the company too. I would inform them in writing rather than by phone. Also your bank if it is typical of many banks may attempt to refuse to cancel the dd saying that they cant as it is part of the contract. This is total rubbish - the dd is simply a method of paying a bill and your contract with UPC has nothing got to do with your bank.

If you have a dd+ then you should write to UPC ( a dd+ is where you signed up for the dd over the phone and the bank do not have any record of such dds) Expect UPC to come back to you and ask if you really want to cancel the dd - thats what they did with me in spite of the fact that I was canceeling my contract with them! There is no provision in the dd system for a company to ask for this confirmation.

You should also note that there is a serious flaw in the direct debit system which allows cancelled dds to be resubmitted and the banks cannot detect them. Apparently only a number needs to be chanaged to do this. In spite of the fact that this is attempted theft no action is taken against companies who behave this way. I have this in writing from IPSO. Its a great country that we live in!


Also UPC love the dd system and exploit it to make loads of handy money. Do you know they charge you €11 if your dd bounces? I am sure you didnt thats because UPC in typcal fashion dont advise their customers of this charge. My information for talking to some people in the bank is that up to 10% of dds bounce (which is not surprising given the times we live in) so imagine that if 500,00 of UPC's 750,000 customers are on direct debit up to 50,000 dds could bounce every month. Now even if we allow UPC €6 of administration for each dd bounced that could still leave a nice handy €5 by 50,0000 each month. And dont forget that the other 250,000 customers who are not on dd are charged an extra €3 so thats up to €750,0000 that UPC are getting to help them with their administration charges! No wonder they love the dd system. Obviously the proportions of customers in those figures are guesses but they are just meant to be illustrative.

dub45

Chett wrote: »

Great, thanks all. I'm going to do that as soon as possible. A month and a half and I'm still not disconnected and they're still withdrawing money. I don't care if I start getting the "...your account is overdue, we are handing this over to our legal team yada yada yada...". I'm not paying the sneaky bastards another cent.



I'm actually a very happy person though.

Are they not giving you notice before they withdraw money from your account?

There is provsion in the dd system to get money back if it hasa not been properly advised to you:

You are entitled to request a refund of any variable direct debit which exceeded the amount which you could reasonably have expected, subject to you so requesting your bank within a period of 8 weeks from the date of debiting such direct debit to your account; your bank is entitled to ask you to provide factual elements relating to your request for a refund

http://www.ipso.ie/section/section/YourRightsasaPayer

Chett

dub45 wrote: »

Are they not giving you notice before they withdraw money from your account?

They give me the 14 days notice on my account before they actually debit the money (no email or letter). However, I don't think that I can contest that as I am still using the service. The thing is that it's been almost two months since I asked to be disconnected and I havn't. I've rang, mailed and emailed and no word back. If they wont disconnect me I'll take charge and cut ties with them completely. They can treat my last month as their cancellation fee as I am being charged €100 for the third month in a row for exceeding the acceptable usage (despite the fact that the house was empty for almost the entire month - and it wasn't an outsider connecting to the network because I made the network extra secure after the first €100 withdrawal).

I know they're taking me for a ride and that they are not about to let go easy if I cut loose from them completely. After I cancel the direct debit (which I'll make sure to do properly), I shoot them an email detailing my experience with them, telling them that they can collect their modem within a week before I dump it, and of course mention that I will never be using their service again. As one boards member rightly put it, I wouldn't suggest UPC to my enemy. I am slightly worried about how things escalate after they send the letters looking for 'their' mulah. I may cave and settle it on the steps of the court.

m4rkiz

finally managed to cancel that direct debit, now waiting to response to my letters and emails that i've send to upc, as they suggested that this can't be resolved over the phone

sad thing is that they have best internet broadband offer on market, but their t&c's are loaded with plenty of c#@p

for example:

you can get 20MB 'unlimited' broadband with actual allowance of 250GB for 40 euros

now, according to their t&c and aup they DO NOT HAVE TO CONTACT YOU if you will go over your limit

now, let's say that you went over by just 10%

what is worst scenario for such small excess?

they don't have to contact you first, but they reserve a right to charge you additional € 768

that's right, almost one grand for additional 25GB

with no option to check how much you used any given month, they don't even offer an option to 'stop' your broadband when you reach your limit, instead they MAY
send you a letter... giant internet service provider with both my email and mobile in their database will send me A LETTER via an post!

now, what is the worst that could happened?
let's say that you have some virus that uses full connection speed of your 20MB broadband 24/7 (it is highly unlikely, but... may happen for someone)

if you just leave it like that it will use 2MB any given second

within a month it will give approximate €150 000 (yes, a one hundred fifty thousand) you will owe to upc if they decide to use this:

"”Excessive use” of the Service is defined as usage exceeding your monthly data transfer allowance. If you exceed your monthly data transfer allowance as determined by UPC, in our sole judgment, UPC may take any of the following actions, or any combination thereof:

• Impose a charge of 3 cent per megabyte or part thereof for exceeding your data transfer limit"

it is highly unlikely, but will they 'let go' that easy money if they let's say - face bankruptcy?

i can see all calls from the past 30 days on o2 website - as simple as putting my mobile number and password

and upc can't offer similar solution with allowances limits?

they can't send you an email when you use 240GB of your unlimited 250GB?

sure they can!

they just prefer to charge you extra money, now it is just additional €60 for switching you to €100 worth 30MB plan

all that for a thing that will take one of they employee few minutes - instead of generating "over limit alarms" just for them, they should do that for CUSTOMERS first.

dub45

m4rkiz wrote: »

finally managed to cancel that direct debit, now waiting to response to my letters and emails that i've send to upc, as they suggested that this can't be resolved over the phone

.................... my email and mobile in their database will send me A LETTER via an post!

now, what is the worst that could happened?
let's say that you have some virus that uses full connection speed of your 20MB broadband 24/7 (it is highly unlikely, but... may happen for someone)

if you just leave it like that it will use 2MB any given second

within a month it will give approximate €150 000 (yes, a one hundred fifty thousand) you will owe to upc if they decide to use this:

"”Excessive use” of the Service is defined as usage exceeding your monthly data transfer allowance. If you exceed your monthly data transfer allowance as determined by UPC, in our sole judgment, UPC may take any of the following actions, or any combination thereof:

• Impose a charge of 3 cent per megabyte or part thereof for exceeding your data transfer limit"

it is highly unlikely, but will they 'let go' that easy money if they let's say - face bankruptcy?

i can see all calls from the past 30 days on o2 website - as simple as putting my mobile number and password

and upc can't offer similar solution with allowances limits?

they can't send you an email when you use 240GB of your unlimited 250GB?

sure they can!

they just prefer to charge you extra money, now it is just additional €60 for switching you to €100 worth 30MB plan

all that for a thing that will take one of they employee few minutes - instead of generating "over limit alarms" just for them, they should do that for CUSTOMERS first.

Unfortunately they often appear to treat their customers as cash machines that they do not need a pin number for.

Comreg have a policy in relation to "limited" unlimited products:

Usage thresholds or limits should be clearly set out, as should the manner in which they may be updated or amended.

ComReg expects each service provider to implement a clear, transparent and policy for dealing with customer usage above any set thresholds. The policy should set out the rules for contract termination, including penalties, the charges that shall apply for any use above the threshold/limit, and the policy regarding migration of the customer to other packages, if applicable.

You should complain to Comreg about your experience. Is it ridiculous that a customer can be upgraded at considerable extra cost and apparently arbitrarily to a product that is not even commercially available and a product which the customer could not anticipate being upgraded to when reading UPC's Terms and Conditions.

m4rkiz

dub45 wrote: »

Unfortunately they often appear to treat their customers as cash machines that they do not need a pin number for.

Comreg have a policy in relation to "limited" unlimited products:



You should complain to Comreg about your experience. Is it ridiculous that a customer can be upgraded at considerable extra cost and apparently arbitrarily to a product that is not even commercially available and a product which the customer could not anticipate being upgraded to when reading UPC's Terms and Conditions.

that is great idea that may actually work

as for price changes and notification in writing - seems that displaying changes on their website does not actually counts...

http://www.comreg.ie/publications/comreg_notifies_upc_of_a_finding_of_non-compliance_with_respect_to_notification_of_proposed_changes_to_contract_terms_and_conditions.583.103800.p.html

ComReg Notifies UPC of a Finding of Non-Compliance with respect to Notification of Proposed Changes to Contract Terms and Conditions

Rulmeq

I'd like to find out when exactly the word unlimited was redefined to mean limited.

mirec

where is it exactly written in t&c that they are charging € 768 for 25Gb extra ?

dub45

Rulmeq wrote: »

I'd like to find out when exactly the word unlimited was redefined to mean limited.

It was a marketing person I am sure

Sir Oxman

mirec wrote: »

where is it exactly written in t&c that they are charging € 768 for 25Gb extra ?

I think it's the 3c per mb over your limit bit.

m4rkiz

mirec wrote: »

where is it exactly written in t&c that they are charging € 768 for 25Gb extra ?

http://www.upc.ie/termsandconditions/acceptableusagepolicy/

section 3

charge of 3 cent per megabyte or part thereof for exceeding your data transfer limit

25 GB * 1024 = 25600 MB
25600 MB * 0.03 Euro = 768 Euro

gerryk

Rulmeq wrote: »

I'd like to find out when exactly the word unlimited was redefined to mean limited.

Around the same time that 'free' came to mean 'not actually free', or 'only free in a very limited set of circumstances'.

I also note an inverse correlation between the point size of the word 'free' on advertising, and the likelihood of something being actually free.

m4rkiz

there is some thread on bargain alerts about upc connection with €50 voucher

i just posted that much:

not a deal breaker, but couple of things you probably should know before you decide to sign contract and authorize direct debit:

http://boards.ie/vbulletin/showthrea...5#post70358810

http://boards.ie/vbulletin/showthrea...5#post70414305

guess what, post deleted...
is it just me or is it a bit not fair for others that have no idea that there may be quite high extra charges in some cases


http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:Lca7F8hFUWMJ:www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php%3Fp%3D70424163+deal+breaker+things+probably+decide+authorize+site:boards.ie&cd=1&hl=pl&ct=clnk&gl=ie&lr=lang_en|lang_pl&client=firefox-a&source=www.google.ie

jclally

Our bill (basic package, digital, extra box and sports) was €67 for well over a year. With no change to service they charged us €140 - we didnt look at the bill on the basis it wouldnt change, so couldnt stop it.
The next bill that came was for €114. I emailed them to advise that I expected to have €73 added to my bill for the previous months overcharge, therefore have a free month with €6 on to the following bill. I told them I would be cancelling my direct debit, and would begin paying €67 a month again manually once the overcharge had been used up.

I had a number of emails justifying the overcharge for some additional sports package thats not even listed on their website. I cancelled the DD, paid nothing for the month in question (67 from my 73 overcharge) and paid 61 (67 less the remaining 6) the following month. I have sent them 3 short emails explaining I would not be paying for something I didnt use, and would be happy to discuss with anyone who wished to.

I havent heard anything since, and our bills are finally back to normal 4 months later.

leafman

I am with UPC and want to leave them but they said there is a €150 leaving fee. If I just cancel direct debit with my bank can I avoid this fee?

wheresmybeaver

leafman wrote: »

I am with UPC and want to leave them but they said there is a €150 leaving fee. If I just cancel direct debit with my bank can I avoid this fee?

cancelling the DD will not release you from your obligation, they'll just look for payment through some other method. Watch out that it doesn't end up affecting your credit rating.