Mixing a Distorted Guitar help

drumdrum

Hi guys,

I'm having a little trouble cleaning up my mix at the moment. Basically I recorded a guitar track using a Fender Stratocaster (single coils pickups) into a Boss GT-8, then into my amp which is a Marshal JCM2000 DSL 100.

I recorded (or at least tried to) using a 2 mic technique I found online at:
http://www.homerecordingconnection.com/news.php?action=view_story&id=140
The mics I used are a Sm57 for the Cab, and a Se2200a condenser mic for the ambient mic (as seen in the link, though I think he uses a different mic).
I have good quality mic cables (if that makes a difference) and it running into a UA-25EX portable sound card thing (we all gotta start somewhere! )

The sound I'm looking for isn't too far off that of say the heavier side of Incubus....you know, that slightly nu-metally sound that somehow still has relatively decent tone definition.

Now I'm not too sure if its recorded decently or not, as I've no frame of reference as this is my first recording using this technique. To my ears it sounds ok, but to get anything from it in the mix I needed to apply some further EQ.
My issue mainly is that the guitar riff isn't quite clear cut enough in the mix. Its a bit muddy-ish. I want to bring it out in the mix more but I'm not sure if I should touch the EQ settings further or just re-record the part from scratch using a different amp setting.

Does anyone here have some EQ settings that they use for their setups that they could share that might help me with my issue?

Basically my current EQ on the track is:
HPF at 100Hz, LPF at about 9kHz
A -2db cut at 400Hz, Q = 0.5 (to try to clean up some of that "muddy" sound)
A +6db boost to 850Hz, Q = 0.83
A +3db boost to 1800Hz, Q = 0.6
A -5db cut at 6KHz to remove distortion "fizz", Q = 0.5
A boost at 400Hz, 3kHz and 7Khz of about 2db, 4db and 2db respectively to add power. This is added in using a fixed eq type plugin thing. Cant remember its q settings, but all I know is that when I add it to the mix, it seems to gives the guitar track more power.

I've heard before that a well recorded distorted guitar track needs very little EQ, but I've been at this for hours now and I'm still not getting the sound I'm looking for.
I'm not naieve and I realise that professional bands go to top end studios, but am I just setting my targets a little too high given the fairly low budget equipment I'm using? Or is it achievable?

Obviously a listen to a sample would be nice, but I'm not sure how to share it online directly without setting up a myspace account or something...

Thanks for any/all help given!
-DD

bradlente

I haven't really started using mics myself but I tend to record guitar straight through my pedal to the interface(or sound card in your case)as i don't have an amp.The quality is suprisingly decent though,Maybe you could re-record it in that form to experiment but its only my opinion,your using decent gear so I don't know if my option would be any better.

Also what sofware program are you using?There are many that have good amp model plugins that you could tinker with.

If your happy with the tone and distortion of your amp and want to keep the mic setup maybe do a couple of tracks each for the guitar.A sample would be handy tbh,look up soundcloud or dropbox their both handy enough for uploading stuff.

I don't do much with EQ and I haven't really started with mics yet,So maybe none of this is beneficial but hey,thats my 2 cents for ya;)

Paolo_M

Could you sign up for soundclick, netmusician, soundcloud or one of the other free music hosting sites so we can hear your clip?



In the meanwhile here's my advice;

Why are you using the GT8?
I'd get rid of it unless there's something specific you're using it for.
The DSL has enough gain for anything, modulation effects can be added in the amp loop, or better still on the DAW where you can adjust it properly afterwards.

Where is the SM57 positioned on your speaker? How far from the grill, angle to the grill, distance from the centre of the cone etc.? This is critical.
What speaker cab is it? Which speakers? G12T-75s need a lot of midz from the amp to sound powerful. I prefer G12Hs or V30s myself.

Is the room you're using a good sounding room?
If it's not treated or a room designed for sound then I would forget the second mic.
It's difficult to get phasing right, especially for a beginner, and miking the ambience of a bad sounding room gonna make things worse. There's loads of nice reverbs available in any DAW.
There's countless examples of pro rock/metal guitars where a single 57 is used. IMO the second mike is not needed, if you can't get it sounding good with one 57 right on the cone then something is wrong.

You're using an awful lot of EQ there. Ideal a guitar should only need a high pass or shelf, perhaps low pass/shelf, a boost at around 3.2k if needed, a touch of verb (if there's no ambient mike) and possibly a compressor for the low end if you're doing chugga, chugga metal. That's it. Dialing the amp and mike placement is where the skill is of recording guitar is.

On the DSL, make sure the tone sh*t (of shift if your prefer) is not engaged, add plenty of mids (I'd say around 8 for a good powerful sound), and a nice touch of trebs, but not too much if it is a G12T-75 cab as they can be ice picky. Do not add too much gain, doubling guitars with lower gain gets a much more powerful sound.
Crank the amp loud as you possibly can.
Louder is always better for guitar recording, there's no debating that, it's just fact.
Speakers pushing large amounts of air sound powerful and a 57, being dynamic, responds to that. Less air moving sounds correspondingly weak.
Remember you're going for good recorded tone, not good tone for the room.

Good guitar tone starts at source, EQ in a DAW ain't gonna fix it.

Hope that helps.

stateofflux

what paolo m said....no multi fx processor will match the natural tube drive of a dsl....i would just plug straight into the amp....and i always overdub any rhythm guitar at least twice & pan l+r slightly for spread ..(use slightly less gain on each overdub as gain is cumulative)....

PMI

Paolo for President: get rid of the toy in the front end....

Guitar, Lead, Amp, Tone, Mic, Placement, Phase, player etc....

Mike Einziger tends to use, big bodied guitars even his PRS guitars seem a bit weird.

be careful with gain it can wreck it all !!!!!!!!!

you cant always grab your guitar and your amp and get the sound ya want, sometimes its the guitar your mate has and an amp that you wouldnt be seen dead with, but in the studio it just works

to much eq afterwards usually means you got it wrong in the front end.

good luck....

Myrddin

I'm not so sure about the 'toy' argument. Over the last few years I've had a TSL100 half stack, a TSL601 combo, & now my current amp an AVT50 (by comparison easily the weakest of the lot).

However, with my current amp & a few 'toys' I've got a tone that far surpasses what the bigger cousins could give me.

But, this is only true for bedroom level playing. The JCM stuff only came into it's own when wound up, & for me it wasn't reasonable. You could argue that when recording guitar, the amp should be wound up, but to achieve the tones I was after, I'd have been evicted

I'm still only beginning myself with recording via mic, but at my personal optimum recording levels, the tone from the toys is far closer to what I'm after than the tone from the amp distortion channel.

fitz

Get rid of the GT8, as said above.

Get a load box/attenuator with a Line Out, like a Hot Plate or a Weber:
http://www.thdelectronics.com/product_page_hotplate.html
http://www.tedweber.com/atten.htm

Get a copy of Recabinet:
http://www.recabi.net/recabinet-3/

Hook up the head to the attenuator, which should be on full Load setting.
Plug the line-out of the attenuator into your interface, then fire up a Recabinet impulse on the track in your DAW. You can now crank your amp to your hearts content, it's the DAW the sound is coming out of, and you can control the level there.

Hands down, the best way of getting great guitar tones out of tube amps at home without the associated volume.

As regards Incubus....pretty sure he uses an AC30 and you can be certain there's less distortion going on in the recording than you think. Dial the gain back and double track it. Stacking up guitar tracks will get you there quicker than just cranking up the gain.

Nifty trick for double tracking using the attenuator/cab impulse method is the following:
Track your two guitar takes.
Select a cab impulse that used an SM57 or Audix i5 mic, something bright, for each take, then pan hard left and right.
Make duplicates of each take, but this time select different cab impulses, ones that used ribbon mics this time. Pan them left and right again, but not hard...maybe around -/+ 25.
Group the "bright" mic channels together, then group the "warm" mic channels together.
Play with the balance until you get the right clarity and cut from the bright channels and body from the warm ones.

Obviously, you could swap the panning around and experiment, but I'd be surprised if you didn't get good results using some kind of variation of this technique.

drumdrum

Thanks for the input guys, especially Paolo M and fitz....

OP here, sorry for not getting back sooner. Was recording a singer lately so I had to focus on this as a priority while I had his time available to me...

I spent the day recording stuff and experimenting with the sound. I know that while many here recommend ditching the "toy", a good friend of mine who is a great engineer said to me that if I can, I should try to get the sound I want correct at the source first, and then worry about mic-ing it up.

Im using a JCM800 1960 lead cab, since Paolo M was asking but Ive no idea what type of cones are inside of it. As far as I know, its still using the default cones that it came with....which I don't know if its good or bad.

fitz, I've looked into the attenuator to Recabinet method and personally, I've never been a fan of DI-ing guitars, IMO they sound a bit too "digital" and not "real"..... but I'll admit, the demo on the Recabinet 3 website does sound very good. I may change my mind and invest in an attenuator if the current mix goes arseways....
As for the tone, I know I said Incubus earlier but in reality the tone Im actually after is closer to a heavier tone like that used by Fightstar or Chevelle.
I recorded a few things today so I will try to mess with the sound now and see if I can get some decent results.
I will hopefully be able to post up an example in the next couple of days at latest.
Cheers guys,
-DD

fitz

drumdrum wrote: »

fitz, I've looked into the attenuator to Recabinet method and personally, I've never been a fan of DI-ing guitars, IMO they sound a bit too "digital" and not "real"..... but I'll admit, the demo on the Recabinet 3 website does sound very good. I may change my mind and invest in an attenuator if the current mix goes arseways....

DD, it's not DI-ing....
DI-ing will give you the signal straight from the guitar.
The method I outlined above gives you the signal from the power-amp section of the amp. The only digital trickery you're doing is replacing the real cab with an impulse. The actual amp tone is 100% from the amp, no modelling being done on that side at all. If I get a chance, I might do a shootout.

I've a Mesa Dual recto, a HiWatt DR103 custom build clone and a Vox AC30 at home...I might record some short guitar parts through each using this attenuator technique and the same parts through a DI/amp sim. Could be a couple of weeks though...I'll bump this thread when I get it done.

drumdrum

fitz wrote: »

DD, it's not DI-ing....
DI-ing will give you the signal straight from the guitar.
The method I outlined above gives you the signal from the power-amp section of the amp. The only digital trickery you're doing is replacing the real cab with an impulse. The actual amp tone is 100% from the amp, no modelling being done on that side at all. If I get a chance, I might do a shootout.

I've a Mesa Dual recto, a HiWatt DR103 custom build clone and a Vox AC30 at home...I might record some short guitar parts through each using this attenuator technique and the same parts through a DI/amp sim. Could be a couple of weeks though...I'll bump this thread when I get it done.

Yeah man I only realised my mistake when re-reading this thread. Then it was too late to edit my post. I realise that your idea was in essence "DI-ing" the amp sound signal, (sort of...) and not the guitar itself.

That would be great if you could put up some samples. Currently I've been experimenting with a combination of real SM57-onaxis-center-coned recorded parts and DI ing amp modelling and I've been liking the results. Its not 100% what I was looking for, but its not too bad all the same. Will try to upload a sample soon...

On another note fitz, I was looking at attenuators, and I tried out the hotplate, but I found that the high end was a bit lacking with it. Anyways in my search I came across the Motherload Elemental which seemed to get a great review from soundonsound. Just wondered if you heard of this before or had any thoughts on it...
I'll be honest, I am tempted by it!

fitz

drumdrum wrote: »

On another note fitz, I was looking at attenuators, and I tried out the hotplate, but I found that the high end was a bit lacking with it. Anyways in my search I came across the Motherload Elemental which seemed to get a great review from soundonsound. Just wondered if you heard of this before or had any thoughts on it...
I'll be honest, I am tempted by it!

I've read that quite a bit, about attenuators changing your tone, or impacting the high end. If you stick anything in your signal path, you can expect it to impact your tone. Just adjust your amp settings accordingly...I've never had an issue getting a great tone using it with any of my amps.

I'd be wary of the Motherload. It's got speaker emulation, which could be handy, but looks like you have no option for a non-speaker-emulation output....you're stuck with the emulation on your output, which limits your options.

When you've got the sound you like out of the amp..LISTEN TO THE MIC..move it about until you HEAR the sound you like..press record..

(or, just boost 4kHz..)

Paolo_M

fitz wrote: »

I've read that quite a bit, about attenuators changing your tone, or impacting the high end. If you stick anything in your signal path, you can expect it to impact your tone. Just adjust your amp settings accordingly...I've never had an issue getting a great tone using it with any of my amps.

I'd be wary of the Motherload. It's got speaker emulation, which could be handy, but looks like you have no option for a non-speaker-emulation output....you're stuck with the emulation on your output, which limits your options.

A good attenuator, a reactive one, doesn't change the tone that much, once you don't go below -12dB of attenuation.
However it does reduce volume significantly, and Fletcher Mundsen curves do the rest.

There's no getting away from the fact that really good recorded amp tone requires volume.


I'd rate the options I've personally tried in this order from least to best:
Amp dialed at bedroom level - Cab - 57
Amp - THD Attenuator set to load and line out - Interface - Impulses (GuitarHacks, Sneap/Friedman)
Amp DI out - interface - with impulses (GuitarHacks, Sneap/Friedman)
Amp cranked with attenuator (THD @ -12dB) - Cab - SM57
Guitar DI with decent amp sims (LePou, Revalver MKIII) and impulses
Amp cranked - Cab - SM57

I must make a comparison clip sometime...


Edit: To find the sweet spot for miking; I normally put on a set of isolation headphones and crank the headphone amp. Have the amp at moderate/lower volumes so all I can hear is the headphone sound. Then move the mike about until I find the best sound. Fix the mike there.
Crank the amp, adjust the interface/DAW levels, and then rock out.