Could it be true?

sligopark

Could it be true we are all so focused on removing ff from government that we are failing to properly consider the policies of the other parties?

Could it be true they all all centre left or left?

Could it be true that none of the present political parties offer little different from one another?

Killer Pigeon

Welcome to politics.

thebman

sligopark wrote: »

Could it be true we are all so focused on removing ff from government that we are failing to properly consider the policies of the other parties?

Could it be true they all all centre left or left?

Could it be true that none of the present political parties offer little different from one another?

The other parties sure do promise alternatives, only one way to find out if they can deliver on them.

Now FF have changed leader, they are all for political reform.

Excuse me if I lol but the parish pump model has served them well so far so why would I believe they want to change it???

meditraitor

sligopark wrote: »

Could it be true we are all so focused on removing ff from government that we are failing to properly consider the policies of the other parties?

?

Well look at the policies of FG for example, looks like they took wikipedia economics 101 and cut and paste the content and called it their own... the dutch health system nonsense looks like a schoolboy thought ot up//

The one thing I will give them is that they know it but have been throwing mud at everyone else just to deflect attention from their laughable policies, and doing a good job of it.

gandalf

sligopark wrote: »

Could it be true we are all so focused on removing ff from government that we are failing to properly consider the policies of the other parties?

Could it be true they all all centre left or left?

Could it be true that none of the present political parties offer little different from one another?

Care to show us where this is the case please?

Pete_Cavan

sligopark wrote: »

Could it be true we are all so focused on removing ff from government that we are failing to properly consider the policies of the other parties?

Could it be true they all all centre left or left?

Could it be true that none of the present political parties offer little different from one another?

Could it be true you just werent arsed reading any policies of the other parties and are just assuming they are all the same

ednwireland

are you a FF supporter per chance

considering FF have destroyed the economy of this country i see no reason to think that their plans were'nt half baked as well (always looked like it in their manifestos which is why i never voted for them)

and yes i do read manifestos unfortunately i cant vote for the major prties because of the terrible candidates they have in my constituencty

barnaclebill

sligopark wrote: »

Could it be true we are all so focused on removing ff from government that we are failing to properly consider the policies of the other parties?

Could it be true they all all centre left or left?

Could it be true that none of the present political parties offer little different from one another?

Totally agree with this.. If Enda Kenny is the answer that I don't know what the question is! I think the population of Ireland need to take some responsibility as well, if we get shouldering it off to politicians then we'll never get out of this hole

deelite

Imo I think that people will vote for independents more so this year and this could create a huge problem - if they happened to get the majority vote - who would be the "leader of the indo's".

I think Bertie did untold damage to FF yesterday - with his comments. I think the SF leader who didn't know the current vat rate (has also caused problems for that party). And poor Enda - the hide and seek champion of Ireland - well that speaks for itself...

Sulmac

Well, OP, there's only one way to find out...

Fianna Fáil - Issues
Fine Gael - Recent Policy Catalogue
Green Party - Policies
Labour - Our ideas & policies
Sinn Féin - The Issues
United Left Alliance - Our Programme

meditraitor wrote: »

Well look at the policies of FG for example, looks like they took wikipedia economics 101 and cut and paste the content and called it their own... the dutch health system nonsense looks like a schoolboy thought ot up//.

The hell it is! Have you even read the document? It's pretty detailed, with good arguments and shows how (including costs and timing) they'd bring about such a system. It's far better than any document the current government parties have brought out of their own initiative.

meditraitor

Sulmac wrote: »

The hell it is! Have you even read the document? It's pretty detailed, with good arguments and shows how (including costs and timing) they'd bring about such a system. It's far better than any document the current government parties have brought out of their own initiative.

I have read it, and maybe I was a bit harsh when I said schoolboy.... maybe a first year health professional (with a hangover).

I agree wholehearthedly that its better then the current system but come on! The current one is brutal. The Dutch model for example is a very costly model that effectively charges a tax per person and gives it to a private comapany to run but it is overseen by the governement (who do most of the work)... Its a tipical right wing solution, privatise and create levels of care dependent on the wealth,


They have to invest a lot more money for one



Were are FG going to get the money for this healthcare project???

scr123

sligopark wrote: »

Could it be true we are all so focused on removing ff from government that we are failing to properly consider the policies of the other parties?

Could it be true they all all centre left or left?

Could it be true that none of the present political parties offer little different from one another?

Politics is 95% waffle to me

Economics and Economics of the Real World are two different things to me

We had our first ever boom and it was a whopper. It developed a life of its own and went out of control and eventually crashed. Blame who you like on that

Net result was a grossly inflated economy with grossly inflated expectations

The crash put people into a state of shock and a sense of deep betrayal set in

A grossly inflated economy with grossly inflated expectations needs to be grossly deflated. This is what is happening now and will continue for at least 5 years

Brian Cowen wasnt a wet day as Taoiseach when he stated standard of living for many people would drop by at least 12.5%. You could have knocked me down with a feather when he said that because I had never in my life heard a politician anywhere in the world openly admit things were going to get rough and DEFLATION was the name of the game for years to come.

We can waffle forever about politics, economics and fiscal matters but until the grossly inflated economy is brought under control unemployment is going to get worse and this will happen no matter what government is in power.

There is no known cure for the boom/bust economic cycle, it is a permanent feature of economics for centuries and will continue to be so in the future. Again, no matter who is in government in this country or any country

The last massive crash as we know was in 1929. Only two countries to a large extent, Russia and Sweden, escaped the chronic problems caused by the crash. The reason for this was because both of those countries had in place a social welfare system to buffer the impact. That buffer is in place in most developed countries and this is why we are not experiencing the riots in Tunisia, Eygpt and Yemen.

This post will be dismissed as an excuse of a rant from a known FF supporter but will not be challenged in detail because simple economic facts are not the order of the day. ALL PARTIES will lie through their teeth in the coming election campaign but not one will mention the economic need to continue with the deflationery process

Liam Byrne

scr123 wrote: »

This post will be dismissed as an excuse of a rant from a known FF supporter but will not be challenged in detail because simple economic facts are not the order of the day. ALL PARTIES will lie through their teeth in the coming election campaign but not one will mention the economic need to continue with the deflationery process

It's unfortunately pretty accurate, but the reason it will be partially dismissed is the passive voice that it just "happened"; while a lot of it "happened", it was warned about and FF chose to ignore the warnings.

scr123 wrote: »

Blame who you like on that

We know who's to blame, and in roughly what proportions.

Eliot Rosewater

I think the OP has a point, in so far as policy issues are far from the centre of the debate. I personally think policy issues are the most important thing to consider in an election, but yet they get very little coverage.

meditraitor wrote: »

... the dutch health system nonsense looks like a schoolboy thought ot up//

I believe it was the Dutch government thought it up - or someone else, and the Dutch government adopted it - and now the Netherlands is ranked as number two in Europe in terms of health quality, and number one in Europe in terms of value for money. Doesn't sound laughable to me.

hardCopy

Sulmac wrote: »

Sinn Féin - The Issues

You couldn't make that up

meditraitor

Eliot Rosewater wrote: »

I think the OP has a point, in so far as policy issues are far from the centre of the debate. I personally think policy issues are the most important thing to consider in an election, but yet they get very little coverage.



I believe it was the Dutch government thought it up - or someone else, and the Dutch government adopted it - and now the Netherlands is ranked as number two in Europe in terms of health quality, and number one in Europe in terms of value for money. Doesn't sound laughable to me.

Did you read my post?, they invest a fortune in this system, they now have the highest per capa health spend in Europe (outside of the 3 rich bastards, Nowway,switzerland and Lux).

So I ask again, were are we going to get the money for this ill thought out FG plan?

Nehaxak

hardCopy wrote: »

You couldn't make that up

Well here, let's take just a couple of things from the economy section...

We argued that the government should introduce a new 48% rate of tax on earnings in excess of €100,000 a year, make discretionary tax relief available only at the standard rate and remove the PRSI ceiling.

Is that not fair ? I think that's fairly spot on.

We also called for the end to the misuse of taxpayers money in supporting private healthcare and the outrageous pay packages of CEOs of public bodies

I know of one CEO of a well known charity in Ireland who is paid upwards of €150,000 per year minus bonuses/additions/extra income from boards he sits on. He's paid that through the public service who the charity then pay back on a quarterly basis and he continues to get pay rises and seems immune to decreases in his pay due to the way this is done. Same person is apparently a member of Legatus, an elitist Catholic group with a very strict membership determined by wealth. Is it right that we the public, continue to fund the likes of his wealth ?

Never was tax reform more urgent than now. Never was it more necessary for the rich to pay their share. We must regain our competitiveness.

The costs of doing business in Ireland is prohibitive. Misguided government policy has driven Energy costs higher here than anywhere else in Europe and has resulted in a telecommunications infrastructure that is third rate.

Government must act now to address these issues. Competitiveness will not be secured on the back of cheap, insecure labour. Families on the breadline is not the answer to our problems, reductions in the minimum wage or running down protections for workers is not the solution.

Investment in skills and education will be the cornerstone of realising our potential. The short-sighted cuts in education, at all levels, must be reversed. There will be no knowledge economy, no ‘smart economy’, if we allow government to vandalise our education system

I see nothing wrong with that either, seems spot on again.

Business start ups must be supported by creating one stop enterprise business points offering advice, funding and expertise to entrepreneurs.

An aggressive export Ireland strategy is urgently required. This is an area of huge potential. Currently 90% of exports from this state are from foreign owned multinationals. Irish enterprises must develop their export capacity. Government policy must drive this.

Again, nothing wrong there, seem spot on again.

Economic policies need to be constantly updated and kept up to date, of which all parties do not do well enough but I fail to see anything fantastically wrong with that put forward by SF other than, as I've said with as with all party policies, those that are available publicly on their website not being 100% bang up to date as they should be.

Liam Byrne

meditraitor wrote: »

I have read it, and maybe I was a bit harsh when I said schoolboy.... maybe a first year health professional (with a hangover).

Professionals don't show up at work with hangovers.......oh, hang on.......

meditraitor

Liam Byrne wrote: »

Professionals don't show up at work with hangovers.......oh, hang on.......

ISAW

thebman wrote: »

The other parties sure do promise alternatives, only one way to find out if they can deliver on them.

Nope. PbP and SF offer zany economic alternatives. Lab and FG offer the same deal. they will try to renegotiate the interest reate on IMF repayments but I doubt they will burn bondholdres. they might offer to burn them in future though. the only difference is that FG will cut more than FF and Lab will tax more but the basic IMF plan will be followed i.e. 15 billion in cuts and taxes by 2015. as FF will have delivered (and Lab and FG voted them through, I have no doubt one of them would have voted for them if the independents pulled out ) over 10 billion of the deal the incoming Fg Lab will cut and tax the other 5 billion over four years.
Maybe the social charge will go . But FG will have to make this up in other cuts or Labour in other taxes.

Now FF have changed leader, they are all for political reform.

Excuse me if I lol but the parish pump model has served them well so far so why would I believe they want to change it???

FF already changed it. the problem they have is that they lost the parish pump model by getting more like FG and trusting experts and advisers and HQ people instead of party people at local levels .

hardCopy

Nehaxak wrote: »

Well here, let's take just a couple of things from the economy section...



Is that not fair ? I think that's fairly spot on.



I know of one CEO of a well known charity in Ireland who is paid upwards of €150,000 per year minus bonuses/additions/extra income from boards he sits on. He's paid that through the public service who the charity then pay back on a quarterly basis and he continues to get pay rises and seems immune to decreases in his pay due to the way this is done. Same person is apparently a member of Legatus, an elitist Catholic group with a very strict membership determined by wealth. Is it right that we the public, continue to fund the likes of his wealth ?



I see nothing wrong with that either, seems spot on again.



Again, nothing wrong there, seem spot on again.

Economic policies need to be constantly updated and kept up to date, of which all parties do not do well enough but I fail to see anything fantastically wrong with that put forward by SF other than, as I've said with as with all party policies, those that are available publicly on their website not being 100% bang up to date as they should be.

Maybe my point wasn't very clear, the page doesn't work.

scientific1982

sligopark wrote: »

Could it be true we are all so focused on removing ff from government that we are failing to properly consider the policies of the other parties?

Could it be true they all all centre left or left?

Could it be true that none of the present political parties offer little different from one another?

Fine gael centre left or left. Are you for real. Also, it wasnt left wing politics that got us into this mess in the first place.

Nehaxak

Yeah, slacking a little on the main campaign website at the moment.
It is however, far as I know, all done in house through volunteers.
FG's campaign site is worse though, it's an Obama-esque picture of Enda on an "internets 2.O" moderated, almost computer generated AI comments site and stinks of an old person "using de computer on the internets" for the first time and wanting to be "hip and down yo, sup foo'" with the younger generation. When really the younger generation are the ones demanding to see the policies these days as we're all sick of someone telling us they had another poo on twitter.

SF embraced the social networking side of things a long time ago and their respective facebook pages get direct input throughout the day from their candidates who are very active online when not canvassing, as do their main party facebook pages.

None of the parties though have provided clear, concise linking to their policy documents on their 2011 campaign websites - last time I checked anyway.
It's still early days though really, I'd expect/hope all would be sorted with all parties by end of next week and ALL parties would have clear links to manifestos and policy documents available.

While I'm a SF voter and they will be getting my number 1 vote - I have other preferences I can use and if any party shows good merit in their policies I may decide to cast a further preference vote their way but I'm not going to trawl through their site to look for them. They should be upfront, clear and immediately available.

blahfckingblah

its in the process of being set up. young people these days have no patience

Sulmac

meditraitor wrote: »

I agree wholehearthedly that its better then the current system but come on! The current one is brutal. The Dutch model for example is a very costly model that effectively charges a tax per person and gives it to a private comapany to run but it is overseen by the governement (who do most of the work)... Its a tipical right wing solution, privatise and create levels of care dependent on the wealth,

That's the current system we have.

People already pay for the public health system through various taxes and charges, with around half the population further buying private insurance. Let's not forget out-of-pocket expenses (GP visits, prescriptions, A&E charges and many more things whether you have insurance or not).

The Dutch system is a single-tier system, everyone has private insurance - with premiums for the elderly, children, unemployed, low-incomes and other vulnerable groups paid for by the government.

Were are FG going to get the money for this healthcare project???

It could be easily done by changing the current system which is completely inefficient. A lot of the money for capital investment (e.g. new primary care centres) also comes from the private sector.

The Dutch system is one that is designed to be 'future-proof' for a rapidly ageing population by keeping costs low. Ireland doesn't have that problem, yet. If we do nothing and keep the current system costs will soar as the population ages.

Here's what Fine Gael themselves have to say about it...

But can the country afford FairCare?

Between taxes, private health insurance and “out-of-pocket” private payments for GPs, medicines etc., Irish residents will this year spend an enormous €20 billion on our health services, putting us among the biggest spenders on healthcare (on a per capita basis) in the world. Unfortunately, much of this money is being wasted on an inefficient bureaucratic system that does not work.

As the recession deepens and Government borrowing escalates, it is becoming increasingly clear that we cannot afford to continue with the present wasteful system.

Fine Gael’s “FairCare” strategy will mean some additional costs for the Irish healthcare system – such as the introduction of a package of free GP care for all and an improved patient safety and quality system – but it will also lead to massive reductions in waste and bureaucracy and better value for money, as well as draw in additional investment into the Irish health care system.

New Costs / Lost Revenues

• Expansion of primary care and upgrading of hospital infrastructure (private rooms, etc.)
• Higher use of GP care among non medical card holders and more care in the community.
• Vouchers to subsidise health insurance.
• Foregone hospital fees for non-insured.
• New expanded regulatory system to monitor hospital quality, patient safety and access to healthcare and to enforce competition.
• Expanded medical / GP training.

Additional Revenues / Lower Costs

• New independent investment funded by predictable payments from insurance co’s.
• Less use of acute hospital care / fall in average length of stays / more abulatory care.
• More health insurance premiums.
• Reduction in tax reliefs on health expenses.
• Better contracting by insurance companies for GP care, drug costs, diagnostics, hospital care to cut costs and raise quality.
• Massive cut in HSE administration.

The reforms set out in Phase 1 maximise existing capacity. We must cut out much of the wasteful spending and cut hospital waiting lists before we move to universal health insurance. Nothern Ireland has showed how this can be done without injecting significant additional resources.

The introduction of MFTP in Phase 2 will have initial start-up IT costs; however, international comparisons show that efficiency improvements of at least 10% can be expected through the introduction of this system as hospitals respond to the end of fixed budgeting and the new incentives to cut costs and treat more patients.

Phase 3, the move to UHI, will not see a major increase in costs. While free access to GP care for those without medical cards will clearly see additional use and costs, this will be offset by much greater efficiency within the health system and better contracting with healthcare providers, driven by competing insurance companies.

Evidence from other countries shows that UHI system can improve the cost efficiency of health care through:

• more dialogue between insurance companies and healthcare providers about cost and quality, on the basis of structured patient feedback;
• greater use of day surgery;
• new incentives and resources from insurance companies for GPs to deliver more services in the community at primary care level;
• a reduction in inpatient care and more “ambulatory” or outpatient care (many insurance companies in other countries only reimburse patients when it can be shown that in-patient care results in better outcomes than ambulatory care);
• reduced length of stays for in-patient care;
• more diagnostic procedures carried out on an ambulatory basis;
• more intensive use of expensive diagnostic equipment;
• new reimbursement models for pharmaceuticals that encourage more sensible use of drugs and greater use of cheaper generic medicines that are therapeutically interchangeable with more expensive branded drugs;
• greater challenges to restrictive practices among health professionals; and
• new staff incentives and bonuses based on the achievement of clear targets.

Eliot Rosewater

meditraitor wrote: »

So I ask again, were are we going to get the money for this ill thought out FG plan?

From what I gather, the money comes from people directly who pay an inurance company of their choice.

There's a thread on FG's policies in the General Election forum - it'd probably be better to discuss it there. Don't want to drag this off topic.

meditraitor

The pretence for the thread was bull anyway so maybe we could hijack it(shhh, dont let the mods know)?

Anyway my point still stands and neither of you have answered it....

The Dutch system is much more expensive than ours, and if you take into account the not for profit insurance model they run than we could be looking at having to double our current outgoings for health, were do we get the money?

If they (FG) really want to be clever they could go with the (voted by healthpowerhouse) best bang for your buck health system in europe....

Albania..... I shit you not.


Have a good weekend lads, I'm of home for a bottle of cheap malbec and a pizza so you probably wont see another reply till tomorrow..

liammur

sligopark wrote: »

Could it be true we are all so focused on removing ff from government that we are failing to properly consider the policies of the other parties?

Could it be true they all all centre left or left?

Could it be true that none of the present political parties offer little different from one another?

I think FF have done well enough off the tax payer. If it were for no other reason than to give someone else a 'go' off the lucrative expenses I'd vote for them ahead of FF.

sligopark

ednwireland wrote: »

are you a FF supporter per chance

No - and no harm in checking through my previous posts to see my thinking

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

Could it be true you just werent arsed reading any policies of the other parties and are just assuming they are all the same

no need but I am grateful for the policy links posted - mostly profession of centre, centre left and left wing policies ... nothing really different bar the looney religious banter of the greens/yellows - why are right wing politics avoided in Ireland when they might have something to offer ...

scientific1982 wrote: »

Fine gael centre left or left. Are you for real. Also, it wasnt left wing politics that got us into this mess in the first place.

ff professed centre left policies but gombeenism, nepostism, and cronyism took over not right of centre policy setting...

the groutch

meditraitor wrote: »

I have read it, and maybe I was a bit harsh when I said schoolboy.... maybe a first year health professional (with a hangover).

I agree wholehearthedly that its better then the current system but come on! The current one is brutal. The Dutch model for example is a very costly model that effectively charges a tax per person and gives it to a private comapany to run but it is overseen by the governement (who do most of the work)... Its a tipical right wing solution, privatise and create levels of care dependent on the wealth,


They have to invest a lot more money for one



Were are FG going to get the money for this healthcare project???

any party who can provide a healthcare system as good as the dutch one can tax me to the hilt to pay for it, it'd worth every penny