Are Chinese lanterns a menace to aviation?

Run_to_da_hills

I see a huge increase in their usage in Ireland over the last year, particularly at Halloween and New Years but have seen them on other occasions. Texaco service stations are now offering them for €2 each with fuel purchase, they can also be purchased over the counter in Dublin..



Surely these pose a threat to both aviation and the emergency services in this country.

Can Pilots see these from the air when approaching cities, along the coast? Could they confuse them with marine emergency flairs?

Already there is proposals to ban them in the UK and I believe that they are banned in some European countries already.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2011/jan/23/chinese-lanterns-call-to-ban

lord lucan

They're generally quite hard to see from distance unless there's a considerable number of them. Can't see them being a big issue tbh.

In saying that,when i was leaving EIDW on new years eve i stopped to gaze at an approaching aircraft on approach to 28. It was only when it drifted northwards that i realised it was a chinese lantern which i had thought was the landing lights of an aircraft!! Felt like a right knob!:o

CabanasBoy

The most lanterns I've ever seen in the air over Dublin at one time is 3, I'd imagine a crew would sh1t their pants if they saw strange lights directly in their path but I don't think the lanterns would do any physical damage to the aircraft?

Run_to_da_hills

CabanasBoy wrote: »

The most lanterns I've ever seen in the air over Dublin at one time is 3, I'd imagine a crew would sh1t their pants if they saw strange lights directly in their path but I don't think the lanterns would do any physical damage to the aircraft?

I would be more concerned about the destraction element and that they could be mistaken for distress flares.

kona

CabanasBoy wrote: »

The most lanterns I've ever seen in the air over Dublin at one time is 3, I'd imagine a crew would sh1t their pants if they saw strange lights directly in their path but I don't think the lanterns would do any physical damage to the aircraft?

They would make **** of a engine, so if there is a group you could have a double engine failure (just being a bit dramatic here).

xflyer

Most jet engines would just gobble them up without a gulp. If there was a risk there would be if a pilot reacted to the sudden appearance of a light dead ahead and turned violently.

Mostly they seem to be a menace to the Coastguard and RNLI causing false alarms.

Never saw one myself either from the air or from the ground. What I did see was a child's silver helium balloon at about 6000 feet. Just caught a glimpse of silver flashing past before I could even react to it. Thought it was another aircraft for a split second. That was a scary moment.

Run_to_da_hills

xflyer wrote: »

Most jet engines would just gobble them up without a gulp. If there was a risk there would be if a pilot reacted to the sudden appearance of a light dead ahead and turned violently.

Mostly they seem to be a menace to the Coastguard and RNLI causing false alarms.

Never saw one myself either from the air or from the ground. What I did see was a child's silver helium balloon at about 6000 feet. Just caught a glimpse of silver flashing past before I could even react to it. Thought it was another aircraft for a split second. That was a scary moment.

They do contain wire, I would imagine a number of these together could damage turbine blades. Farmers are also concerned about livestock eating them when they land.

kona

xflyer wrote: »

Most jet engines would just gobble them up without a gulp. If there was a risk there would be if a pilot reacted to the sudden appearance of a light dead ahead and turned violently.

Mostly they seem to be a menace to the Coastguard and RNLI causing false alarms.

Never saw one myself either from the air or from the ground. What I did see was a child's silver helium balloon at about 6000 feet. Just caught a glimpse of silver flashing past before I could even react to it. Thought it was another aircraft for a split second. That was a scary moment.

How much does a HPT blade cost? 7k ? Those things have wire, string, wax etc. Id imagine it would effect egt if it covered the cooling holes on the blades, either was Foreign objects in engines are never ever a good think, and Id rather it not happen, by the nature of them, it is more likely on Take off or landing.
As I said I was being dramatic with the Engine failure, but it is possible IMO.

jimbis

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

I would be more concerned about the destraction element and that they could be mistaken for distress flares.

xflyer wrote: »

Mostly they seem to be a menace to the Coastguard and RNLI causing false alarms.

RLNI were on the news last week asking the public to let them know if they are releasing lanterns as they are causing alot of false alarms.
I'd imagine they're phones would be very busy! :eek:

xflyer

Kona, somehow I cannot see a Chinese lantern making it's way into the turbine section and damaging a HPT blade. It would have to pass through the combustors for a start. Most likely it would be shredded at the LPC stage assuming it ever got that far. The most likely damage would be to the Fan, in the way of a serious nick or two caused by the wire. The rest would probably pass out through the bypass ducts. Remember jet engines are designed to take a certain amount of FOD before failure.

Even a flock of lanterns would hardly be much of a threat unless they got lucky. They aren't Canada Geese after all.

You would be amazed how much damage a jet engine can carry with little effect on it's performance. I've seen some incredible damage in my time working in engine overhaul. Many were at scheduled removals too. Unsympathetic pilots do more damage to hot sections than any bird or FOD.

tippilot

It's not the danger of ingestion that is a problem, it is something you'd try to avoid alright.

The problem for me is where these things are being released. I fly out of Dublin and I live within a stones throw of the airport. I regularly see these things being released in the vicinity of the airport and the approach. Simple fact, they are a hazard. They have the potential to cause pilots to take evasive action or initiate a go around.

The people who release these things in the vicinity of an airport are quite simply idiots lacking in the smallest helping of common sense. I detest the things.

When they gain a bit of altitude, the wind catches them and the move quite fast. Daytime VFR pilots may not fully appreciate it, but any moving light in the night sky is very visible from the flight deck. If I see a light moving quickly across my path I am going around. Simple. Any avoidable situation that causes me to go around should be banned. Simple.

The solution is for the IAA to initiate proceedings banning the release and sale of Chinese lanterns within a ten mile radius of an airport.

Facing a dilemma of plotting which of their stores fall within this exclusion area would encourage retailers to remove them from their shelves entirely. Good riddance.

CabanasBoy

kona wrote: »

They would make **** of a engine, so if there is a group you could have a double engine failure (just being a bit dramatic here).

There's feck all in them lanterns, just paper and a tiny amount of wire, I really don't think they'd cause any damage to an engine capable of ingesting a 2-3lb bird without damage.

CabanasBoy

tippilot wrote: »

It's not the danger of ingestion that is a problem, it is something you'd try to avoid alright.

The problem for me is where these things are being released. I fly out of Dublin and I live within a stones throw of the airport. I regularly see these things being released in the vicinity of the airport and the approach. Simple fact, they are a hazard. They have the potential to cause pilots to take evasive action or initiate a go around.

The people who release these things in the vicinity of an airport are quite simply idiots lacking in the smallest helping of common sense. I detest the things.

When they gain a bit of altitude, the wind catches them and the move quite fast. Daytime VFR pilots may not fully appreciate it, but any moving light in the night sky is very visible from the flight deck. If I see a light moving quickly across my path I am going around. Simple. Any avoidable situation that causes me to go around should be banned. Simple.

The solution is for the IAA to initiate proceedings banning the release and sale of Chinese lanterns within a ten mile radius of an airport.

Facing a dilemma of plotting which of their stores fall within this exclusion area would encourage retailers to remove them from their shelves entirely. Good riddance.

FFS! a bit of overkill there now, ban them?? do they ground all flights in Hong Kong or mainland China every public holiday in case they run into a lantern?

Run_to_da_hills

CabanasBoy wrote: »

FFS! a bit of overkill there now, ban them?? do they ground all flights in Hong Kong or mainland China every public holiday in case they run into a lantern?

Sanya in China has banned them due to hazard to aircraft, they are also forbidden to be used in Germany. In Austria it is illegal to sell, produce or import them, or to distribute them in any other way.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sky_lantern

CabanasBoy

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

Sanya in China has banned them due to hazard to aircraft, they are also forbidden to be used in Germany. In Austria it is illegal to sell, produce or import them, or to distribute them in any other way.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sky_lantern

I stand corrected! Is there any recorded instance where a "Chinese Lantern" has endangered an aircraft by being struck or ingested?

Run_to_da_hills

CabanasBoy wrote: »

I stand corrected! Is there any recorded instance where a "Chinese Lantern" has endangered an aircraft by being struck or ingested?

No but they must an issue if the CAA are concerned about them.

tippilot

CabanasBoy wrote: »

FFS! a bit of overkill there now, ban them?? do they ground all flights in Hong Kong or mainland China every public holiday in case they run into a lantern?

You seriously don't see the merits of banning the release of Chinese Lanterns within 10 miles of an airport? FFS right back at you!!