Westley Richards Side by Side

Vizzy

Lads/Girls,looking for a bit of advice.
Friend of mine rang me about a gun he has come across(elderly man is giving up shooting and wants to sell his Westley Richards)
I went on the official Westley Richards site and these guns are selling for big money.However there is also a gun called a Wesley Richards (note the slight difference in spelling)and these are a copy as far as I can see.
My pal insists that this is the origional one and the old guy says the same.
I saw the gun and it looks immaculate(it even has a metal insert on the butt of the stock)
Does anyone know anything about them or what kind of money they are worth ?

meathshooter1

try a few of the english sites that deal in old english shotgun to get an idea.depending what model it could be worth big money.here is a link to one in the states $15000 http://www.hillrodandgun.com/picture.php?id=12559.

rowa

ring or email westley richards, they are still in business and moved recently, they might have manufacturing/sales records if you know the serial number . is there an address on the rib ?

Vizzy

Got the serial number since.
The gun was made in 1895.
I forgot to mention in the frist post that it is a boxlock.
Just to add here that it has a gold inlay "1" on the barrels,foreend and on the lever that opens the gun(cant think of the right name for it).
There is also a stamp on the barrels "sleeved" with a proof of 3 1/4 tonnes on it.
The trigger guard also has an engraving of a dog setting a pheasant.

I didn't notice any writing on the rib though.

rowa

the "1" means it is number one of a pair or trio, sleeved barrels seem to reduce the value of a gun slightly for some reason , don't know why, the sleeved barrels might be why the rib doesn't have an address on it ,what length chambers does it have ? older guns its normally 2 1/2 inch and reduces your choice of cartridges.

meathshooter1

try this link they have a good selection of photos and prices.http://www.gunsinternational.com

deeksofdoom

Offer the ould lad €50 for it!:D

landkeeper

a quick trawl through google has westly richards b/l going from anything from 450 gbp to 10k us i'd imagine you need to get it looked at by somone in the know sleeving can devalue it by a lot if it was a cheap job, then again if it was done by one of the top names you'd never know as it's 1 of a pair
try http://www.matchedpairs.com/gateway.htm for some info or http://www.irelandwide.com/guns/pjmcgee/index.htm
hth

Double Barrel

Vizzy

Caveat emptor - Buyer beware , there was any number of Belgium knockoffs which were cheap copies trying to use a famous name for their advantage.
Take the gun apart - forend, barrels, receiver , the story is stamped on the barrel flats and the watertable. All No's should match.
The real Westley's are a treasure and worth money .
The "other Wesley's" are usually fakes.
One hopes for a real "hen house" gun by the Birmnhinam maker, Westley Richards. However, there were other respected English makers who used the names William Richards or simply W. Richards.

William Westley Richards is a famous English maker of medium quality to high quality guns. Many of his guns were meant for export to India and the colonies and some of his guns were of “best” quality. The value of the particular gun depends upon the individual gun at hand. They will "all" be marked “Westley Richards” as his father made guns under the William Richards moniker. There was another medium quality maker in England by the name of William Richards and you may see either that name or simply “W. Richards”. These are good guns and all will have English proofs on the barrels.

The low quality guns are usually stamped “W. Richards” and may even have a London or Birmingham street address on the barrel flats. The name and address on the flats is a distraction and of no value.
These are guns made in Belgium and the tell tale signs are the proof stamps on the barrels. The Belgium proofs are either a scripted EL or more often a block lettered E over LG usually within an oval under a crown. A crown over block lettered PV is a more modern Belgium mark. These are the things you do not want to see but are only too common on W. Richard's guns. Belgium made some fine guns and barrels, but probably led the world in the production of utilitarian guns primarily for the colonial export market.

Sleeved barrels involve fitting new tubes into what may look at a glance to be a monoblock but which most likely had been assembled from chopper lump barrels ( two separate tubes and lumps ) by a variety of different methods.

When barrels on a good gun are shot out - to thin to be safe- a new set of barrels are made or a set of sleeved barrels are made up. Sleeving is an economical method of bringing new life to a worn or damaged pair of barrels, regardless of their original method of jointing. The ribs are removed. The barrels are cut off 3" - 4" from the breech end and discarded. The bores of the remaining breech-end are reamed out oversize. New tubes are fitted down into the original breech section and filed down to fit flush. The original ribs are then replaced.

Sleeving is considerably less expensive than building a completely new set of barrels. Much of the time required to build a set of barrels is concentrated in the fitting of the breech end to the receiver; this work is salvaged through sleeving. Sleeving can be recognised by a pair of circumferential lines around the barrels a few inches from the breech; the more invisible, the finer the job. A sleeved gun should always be identified as such amongst the proof marks, and if done in England must be properly reproofed.

Can you post good clear photos of the stamps on the watertable and barrel flats.

Just a guess mind you but if the barrels are sleeved it is more than likely the real thing, a WWR. Just guessing.

Vizzy

Double Barrel,you are a mine of information !

I'll have to get a closer look at the gun at the weekend(but I'm pretty sure the inscription on the side of the boxlock is Westley Richards.The name is definitely nicely inscribed,calligraphy style but it is a bit faded which would be expected from a gun that is 125 years old).

I now have a bit of a dilemma,if it is the real thing do I offer say €1000 and hope for the best (even though the gun could be worth mulpiples of this) or do I advise the guy to get it professionally valued so he gets a fair price ???.
Decisions,decisions. I'll keep you posted.

landkeeper

well if you are serious about buying it get it checked out by somone who can check barrell wall thickness to see that it's still in proof i wouldn't offer anything for it until you do that , just don't be in a rush cos it's a best gun i rushed into buying a t bland a few years ago in similar circumstances only to discover i had a lemon just because it's a 'name' don't assume it's worth a fortune
here these may put the brakes on for you
http://www.google.co.uk/search?sourceid=navclient&aq=0h&oq=westly+r&ie=UTF-8&rlz=1T4GGLL_enIE413IE413&q=westly+richards+12+bore+box+lock#hl=en&rlz=1T4GGLL_enIE413IE413&&sa=X&ei=c5ZATaGxEc6ChQfKuO2oCA&ved=0CBUQBSgA&q=westley+richards+12+bore+boxlock&spell=1&fp=36120401db61d31e

Double Barrel

Heed landkeepers advise.
It being one of a 1895 pair a fair few cartridges have seen the inside of the chambers.
No knowing when it was sleeved and how much use it has seen since. Get it inspected and measured by a good double gun smith who understands old guns.

A Westley that has had the barrels reblacked, wood refinished and a thorough going over of the internals.

Vizzy

rowa wrote: »

is there an address on the rib ?

Got another look at the gun today(will post a few pics later)

There is some writing on the rib,"Westley Richards,10(I think) New Bond Street,London.
The plate is stamped 2 1/2 and the underside of the barrels have "sleeved" on them.
You can also make out(just about) where the sleeving was done.If you didn't know that there was a joint,then you wouldn't spot it so I presume that it was done very professionnally.

Vizzy

Pictures as promised.
Some of them are better than others.
I have a few more but the forum will only allow me to put 5 up.

landkeeper

that is a nice piece of wood
only thing with 2.5" chambers is availability of cartridges for her most these days are 70mm not 67.5
if it's in proof and tight i'd go for it depending on what the seller wants for it you'll have a gun for life and to hand down to the next lad

It wasn't me!

Wow, that's a gorgeous gun. Beautiful.

Vizzy

landkeeper wrote: »

that is a nice piece of wood
only thing with 2.5" chambers is availability of cartridges for her most these days are 70mm not 67.5
if it's in proof and tight i'd go for it depending on what the seller wants for it you'll have a gun for life and to hand down to the next lad

I pressume that I would be able to use the "average pheasant cartridge" eg Grand Prix or Maximum.
I would have no intention of using Alphamax or the like in it.It would be sacralige

It wasn't me!

Vizzy wrote: »

I pressume that I would be able to use the "average pheasant cartridge" eg Grand Prix or Maximum.
I would have no intention of using Alphamax or the like in it.It would be sacralige

Only 2.5" cartridges though. Have seen some 65mm ones recently that were 28g 5s. That'd be a nice general purpose load for it.

meathstevie

Vizzy wrote: »

I pressume that I would be able to use the "average pheasant cartridge" eg Grand Prix or Maximum.
I would have no intention of using Alphamax or the like in it.It would be sacralige

The English cartridge manufacturers especially still do 67,5mm cartridges in all sorts of loads Eley and Gamebore are some of the more prominent that immedeatly spring to mind.

Vizzy

Yeah I bought a box of Grand Prix on friday and they are 67mm case for 65mm(2 1/2") chambers and 32 gram.
I think that that would be more or less equivalent to a maximum 6.

Will probably make an offer during the week !!!

It wasn't me!

Good luck. It's a beauty. Will have to knock some cracking pheasants with it next year now!

landkeeper

just check the proof markings of whatever shell you choose , id use grandprix or impax , i think you'll find the maximum a bit rough

Double Barrel

Very nice gun and it looks like it was taken care of. Can you post the other photos please.

BNP under crown - British Nitro Proof (smokeless powder proof)
3 Tons per square inch is the 'service pressure' the gun was proofed to.

2 1/2" Gamebore 28gms or Eley SUPREME GAME 28 28gms loads. Plus one for Eley Grand Prix.

Have a look here and you can see what is available.
http://www.justcartridges.com/pricelists.html

If you can try and keep the velosity below 1200fps closer to 1150fps preferebly.

http://www.justcartridges.com/pdf/gamebore.pdf

rowa

just seen your pics vizzy ,thats the real deal alright , does the gun fit you well ? i think there has been a resurgence in interest in old side by sides in the uk that ensures a good demand for 2 1/2" shells , the old ounce and an eighth game load was always adequate , i don't know why all the makers went up to 2 3/4" .
just something else to check , when you have the gun broken down grip the action with one hand and the stock with the other and twist them , if there is any play between them it could mean expensive trouble.

Vizzy

Double Barrel wrote: »

Very nice gun and it looks like it was taken care of. Can you post the other photos please.

BNP under crown - British Nitro Proof (smokeless powder proof)
3 Tons per square inch is the 'service pressure' the gun was proofed to.

2 1/2" Gamebore 28gms or Eley SUPREME GAME 28 28gms loads. Plus one for Eley Grand Prix.

Have a look here and you can see what is available.
http://www.justcartridges.com/pricelists.html

If you can try and keep the velosity below 1200fps closer to 1150fps preferebly.


http://www.justcartridges.com/pdf/gamebore.pdf

Double Barrel,especially for you, more pics.

If I buy it I wiil keep your advice about cartridges in mind.

ThanKs everyone for all the advice

Double Barrel

Vizzy
Thanks for the excellent photos. A photo or two of the barrel flats would complete the story.

This being an older gun it is a good candidate for the barrel ringing test, when/if you decide to buy.
Nothing complicated about it, just remove the barrels from the gun and then holding them suspended from the lump with your index finger with your thumb lightly on the extractors/ejectors to dampen any vibration there, then give them a light tap along the outer portion of one of the tubes with something like a biro/ pocket pen; if the barrels are sound they will 'ring'.

Note: you may find it easier to suspend the barrels from a closed loop of sturdy nylon cord like that used for starter rope for small engines. You do not want to use something that might break or that would mark the lump. A small tied off loop of 6~10" diameter is quite sufficient for the purpose.
I tap on the rib itself also. If the rib is loose, you'll get a dull click along with the ring indicating a separated rib at that point. Barrels held & ringing like a church bell will undoubtedly astound and amaze many a potential buyer or owner. But in reality it cannot tell you anything but the most generously loose rib. It's a real rarity that there isn't at least some pinhole(s) or small loose section somewhere along those lengths of solder joint.

Good luck and keep us informed.

Vizzy

If and when I buy,I will carry out the test( or does it need to be done before I decide)
The reason I ask it that I assume that there is nothing dramatically wrong even if I get one or two "dull spots".
By the way,what kind of money would I be looking at to give this gun ( or any DBS) a good clean up i.e.reblueing,buffing up or restaining the colour on the woodwork etc. ?
Don't think it needs it at the moment but I'm just curious.

By the way I have also come across a Webley & Scott 700 !!!(Not for sale though at the moment).
Fired a few shots from it today and it really felt great,although it has a very short stock.

Double Barrel

Do the test before you hand over your money. A loose, rusty rib can be costly to relay properly, € 300 - 500 +-.

Check your PM's

centre

Hi Vizzy and the best of luck in trying to get a bargain here if thats what it is.
This will depend on what you pay for it.
Is it is an ejector?
The boxlock is a cheaper version than the sidelock and by some considerable margin , the ejector models are premium.
The sleeving of this gun will seriously depreciate this gun if not carried out by a high end gunsmithing house.Outside of london, Elderkins are probably the only one of repute for this work. If it has not been done by any of these then it will make a huge differance to the price, and even if it has it will still have a big impact.
The pictures look like the wood has been refinished , looks pretty in a picture but might have an effect on the price.
Barrel length is also very important. 28" guns are fetching premium prices at auction at present and 26" and below have lost a huge amount of value at auction.
These type guns values are dependant on original conditions and there are reallly no exceptions to this rule. The value of the gun will be dependant on :
Original condition of;
Action -colour retention and condition of engraving
Barrells- condition and length
Wood
There is a Purdey for sale in the uk at present in Avalon guns and if the gun had not been resleeved the gun value would be 15,000. Its for sale for 7,000.This is the owners words not mine.
Your best option with this gun is to go onto Holts auctioneers website and they have experts who do free valuations. They have one in Ireland,George O'Malley 087 2597439.Outside of this there are very few gun dealers in Ireland with knowledge of these gun types, only 2/3 .
Hope it works out for you and you get a result with this gun, it looks really well in the pictures.

Vizzy

centre,
Just bit more about the gun,it's a 28" barrel,boxlock ejector.
I have done as much checking as advised earlier in the post(ringing test,checking the tightness etc) and as far as I can see the gun is sound but I can't of course verify the thickness of the barrels.
I checked out the Holts site and they seem to be pricing their guns at the low end of the scale in comparison with other sites.
I might give George O Malley a ring though but unless he tells me a real scare story I will probably make an offer soon.

Thanks to all(you know who you are)
Vizz