Hayes out for Italy opener

Monty Burnz

Bad news for Hayes, good news for Ireland? Surely even Kidney can't avoid using Ross now?

jolley123

Monty Burnz wrote: »

Bad news for Hayes, good news for Ireland? Surely even Kidney can't avoid using Ross now?

Buckley to start, Court to bench. Ross avoided.

Podge_irl

jolley123 wrote: »

Buckley to start, Court to bench. Ross avoided.

Monty Burnz

jolley123 wrote: »

Buckley to start, Court to bench. Ross avoided.

+1

My brain didn't allow me to consider that option. I know Court is alleged to be able to scrummage, but he looks nothing like a natural rugby player in the loose. He's a throwback the forwards in the 70s who spent the whole game doing their best to avoid touching the ball. I have worries about his defence too.

jolley123

Monty Burnz wrote: »

+1

My brain didn't allow me to consider that option. I know Court is alleged to be able to scrummage, but he looks nothing like a natural rugby player in the loose. He's a throwback the forwards in the 70s who spent the whole game doing their best to avoid touching the ball. I have worries about his defence too.

Agreed.
I'm totally anti Court. The only way I can fathom justification for his selection is the fact that he can at least hold himself in the scrum. He's the kind of player that makes you grimace every time the ball is being passed to him, he simply offers nothing away from the scrum.

TitoPuente

We all know what Kidney *should* do. In my mind this, amongst a few other key decisions (including selecting Hayes in the first place), will determine whether Kidney is still a sensible option as Ireland coach.

profitius

I reckon they wanted Ross starting and Hayes backing him up. And they wanted Mushy starting on th A team with Hagan backing him up. If that was their thinking, now that Hayes is out it could mean they bring in Hagan. I doubt it but its a possibility.

CouchSmart

If it means Ross gets the start it's a good thing.

[Jackass]

Well, I think it forces Kidneys hand, which is a good thing for Ireland but a bad thing for Kidney.

He knows that if he doesn't start Ross now it would cause too much of a stir. So just like he never actually dropped Horan for Healy when it was obvious the better player wasn't getting his game, now he'll start Ross without dropping Hayes imo.

So it looks like it's almost as tough to lose your place in that team than it is to gain a place for being the better player.

Podge_irl

Whoa whoa whoa. I'm against Buckley getting anywhere near the Ireland team, but I'm a fan of Court. He's a good scrummager on either side (the only one of which we have) and gets around in the loose. He's no Healy, but has no pretensions to be either. You know what you're going to get with him and he delivers that. He hits rucks and puts himself about in mauls. He's a perfect sub prop.

Ross should be starting TH no matter who is available. Whether or not that happens remains to be seen. Hayes is out of the picture but Buckley may yet start there. I will have serious concerns with Kidney is that happens.

some_dose

I hate McGahan and Kidney for doing this to Hayes - I wanted my memories of John Hayes playing his last matches to be good ones, not ones of him going backwards at a rate of knots. It's disheartening that the day has come that we are kind of happy that the Bull isn't able to play for Ireland.

chupacabra

some_dose wrote: »

I hate McGahan and Kidney for doing this to Hayes - I wanted my memories of John Hayes playing his last matches to be good ones, not ones of him going backwards at a rate of knots. It's disheartening that the day has come that we are kind of happy that the Bull isn't able to play for Ireland.

Cant agree more. Its very sad indeed.

[Jackass]

It's actually disgraceful the way Hayes has been treated in my opinion. Ok, obviously he's stayed on playing, but he must even have reservations at the level of rugby he's being asked to play and he seems to be accomidating management by staying on rather than wanting to be there and enjoying his rugby. I can't imagine he's enjoyed the last couple of seasons at all.

It's more testamount to his character that he did what was asked of him, but serious questions have to surround the people who've kept him there. Another season out of Hayes at international level would be borderline dangerous for the man.

Quint2010

some_dose wrote: »

I hate McGahan and Kidney for doing this to Hayes - I wanted my memories of John Hayes playing his last matches to be good ones, not ones of him going backwards at a rate of knots. It's disheartening that the day has come that we are kind of happy that the Bull isn't able to play for Ireland.

Hang on-why doesnt Hayes just retire? He is far too old now and should give someone else a chance to claim a place in the squad. He was a decent (not great) player in his day. Now he's just a passanger. He would not have been picked at TH for the Italy match anyway-Ross is by far and away the outstanding choice for the position now.

buck65

I know some of you have reservations about Buckley and I agree but he is a savage bench option to have, 60 minutes in the intensity has gone from the scrums and the game opening up? He is the man to bring in to take the ball on and counter ruck etc. when maybe the rucks aren't being defended well. Ross should start definitely but Buckley needs to be on the pitch as well. His assets outweigh his liabilities.
Hayes is expected to be out for at least 2 games , as is Horgan, I would imagine this could be the excuse Kidney needs to play Ross.

boredatwork82

Monty Burnz wrote: »

+1

My brain didn't allow me to consider that option. I know Court is alleged to be able to scrummage, but he looks nothing like a natural rugby player in the loose. He's a throwback the forwards in the 70s who spent the whole game doing their best to avoid touching the ball. I have worries about his defence too.

He's a prop for crying out loud. His job is scrummage, lift, and maybe hit a few rucks. Anything else is gravy!

No point in having props who can carry ball, if you can't gain possession of the ball.

Just to add, Court will offer himself up to carry ball, will carry the ball a few times in a game. Runs the odd good line. He's not Tony Buckley - thank god for that!

I think there is a rugby league forum if you want ball carrying props who can't scrummage!

Quint2010

Quint2010 wrote: »

Hang on-why doesnt Hayes just retire? He is far too old now and should give someone else a chance to claim a place in the squad. He was a decent (not great) player in his day. Now he's just a passanger. He would not have been picked at TH for the Italy match anyway-Ross is by far and away the outstanding choice for the position now.

Its a scary world out there, nobody wants to retire, especially not after being involved for so long.

Heart is ruling over the head in Hayes' case I'm almost sure.

Kidney/McGahan are the boxing coaches who are still holding the towel even though their fighter hasn't thrown a punch in 3 rounds and has the face squarely beaten off him. If anything happens to him on the pitch, they must surely hold themselves accountable.

buck65 wrote: »

Ross should start definitely but Buckley needs to be on the pitch as well

This is so important, and not just in the #3 jersey. We need to have every position covered (to some degree of ability) coming into a WC, injuries happen, its not like rugby's a soft game, we need to have players sharing gametime all over the park. O'Gara coming on at 60 minutes, a change in the second rows and front rows too. Every game will need to see changes!

jacothelad

Monty Burnz wrote: »

+1

My brain didn't allow me to consider that option. I know Court is alleged to be able to scrummage, but he looks nothing like a natural rugby player in the loose. He's a throwback the forwards in the 70s who spent the whole game doing their best to avoid touching the ball. I have worries about his defence too.

Compared to Ross and Hayes he's like BOD in the loose. You obviously haven't seen him play very often. Total tosh.

jacothelad

[Jackass] wrote: »

It's actually disgraceful the way Hayes has been treated in my opinion. Ok, obviously he's stayed on playing, but he must even have reservations at the level of rugby he's being asked to play and he seems to be accomidating management by staying on rather than wanting to be there and enjoying his rugby. I can't imagine he's enjoyed the last couple of seasons at all.

It's more testamount to his character that he did what was asked of him, but serious questions have to surround the people who've kept him there. Another season out of Hayes at international level would be borderline dangerous for the man.

I suppose the 200,000 Euro per year contract had nothing to do with it. I wonder would he still be playing if Deccie had asked him to do it for nowt? Actually he's just the sort of guy who probably would do it for free. He just shouldn't be there. He's going from Hero to Zero when his playing career should be remembered for the good things, not the bad end to it.

Podge_irl

buck65 wrote: »

I know some of you have reservations about Buckley and I agree but he is a savage bench option to have, 60 minutes in the intensity has gone from the scrums and the game opening up? He is the man to bring in to take the ball on and counter ruck etc. when maybe the rucks aren't being defended well. Ross should start definitely but Buckley needs to be on the pitch as well. His assets outweigh his liabilities.

Buckley is a savage bench option with 23 man squads, not with 22 man ones. If he is on the bench we have no cover for loosehead.

jacothelad

Podge_irl wrote: »

Buckley is a savage bench option with 23 man squads, not with 22 man ones. If he is on the bench we have no cover for loosehead.

...or tighthead...:D

Court will be in every 22 when we have 22 man squads, simply for his versatility and consistency.

Be it starting or subbing, he offers more cover than any other prop.

smurphy29

Some posters have the anti-Kidney blinkers on a bit too tight. I am no fan of his recent selection policy, but he is not as ridiculous as some are making out; he is stubborn and conservative, which is frustrating, but there is no conspiracy afoot. I would be confident Ross is going to start here. Remember, Tony Buckley has been dropped!

I know initially there was some talk of him being in the Wolfhounds for gametime, but the consensus from all pundits (including Thornley, who usually has an inside track on matters) is that he was very much dropped. O'Leary's Guinness 22 soundbite on facebook was that of a man who had been dropped (he said he was gutted not to be in the squad but had no qualms). Gert Smal was talking Ross up in the papers this morning also - it seems he's all set for a long overdue international start.

nice_guy80

buck65 wrote: »

I know some of you have reservations about Buckley and I agree but he is a savage bench option to have, 60 minutes in the intensity has gone from the scrums and the game opening up? He is the man to bring in to take the ball on and counter ruck etc. when maybe the rucks aren't being defended well. Ross should start definitely but Buckley needs to be on the pitch as well. His assets outweigh his liabilities.
Hayes is expected to be out for at least 2 games , as is Horgan, I would imagine this could be the excuse Kidney needs to play Ross.

If Buckley would bother to counter-ruck properly
and be more aggressive all around the pitch

GerM

Can't understand the dislike of Court. He's a decent scrummager on both sides and, whilst not a wrecking ball when carrying, offers to carry plenty and is a decent enough for a prop. Aside from that he's got a very good work rate. He's not just being selected because he can cover both sides. He works his balls off. He's Ulster's 2nd highest tackler in the HEC this season and hasn't missed a single tackle. He hits a hell of a lot of rucks also. Extremely mobile for a bloke of his size.

Monty Burnz

jacothelad wrote: »

Compared to Ross and Hayes he's like BOD in the loose. You obviously haven't seen him play very often. Total tosh.

I've seen him often enough to see him make umpteen mistakes. He's not a natural rugby player. Marcus Horan is a prop who is also a natural rugby player (although his scrummaging may not be as good as Court).

Edit: by the way, I'm not trying to do a number on Court here - we are lucky to have him.

Brewster

Court is a fine player and way ahead of any other prop for the bench spot currently available for Ireland.. Is he a Nicky Popplewell or a Phil Orr? Clearly not, but he is by far the best option available for Ireland and fully deserves his place in squad. I'd have no reservations were he to start for Ireland at tighthead even though his preferred position is loosehead. Rugby is a complicated game at times, but I do wonder what some posters see at times having read some of the comments on big Tom Court.

Eoin

OK, I know Ulster were playing the minnows of the Heineken cup last weekend, but Court was putting himself about quite well I thought.

Either way, I'd rather a prop who can't handle the ball over a prop who can't scrummage - you'll teach the former easier.

Monty Burnz wrote:

I've seen him often enough to see him make umpteen mistakes. He's not a natural rugby player. Marcus Horan is a prop who is also a natural rugby player (although his scrummaging may not be as good as Court).

Horan has had some absolute shockers as well; if he had concentrated on his main duties, he'd be a much better prop.

Monty Burnz

Eoin wrote: »

Either way, I'd rather a prop who can't handle the ball over a prop who can't scrummage

Agreed - I started a thread a few days ago about the stupidity of picking players who can't perform their primary role.

Eoin wrote: »

- you'll teach the former easier.

I'm not sure about that bit though - and it's not like Court is new to the game at this stage.

hairyhippo

I think it's shame O'Leary is dropped, he is a far better number 9 compared to Reddan. Would love to see Sexton at number 15 and O'Gara at 10.

MikeHoncho

hairyhippo wrote: »

I think it's shame O'Leary is dropped, he is a far better number 9 compared to Reddan. Would love to see Sexton at number 15 and O'Gara at 10.

Frankie Sheehan is that you?

trackguy

hairyhippo wrote: »

I think it's shame O'Leary is dropped, he is a far better number 9 compared to Reddan. Would love to see Sexton at number 15 and O'Gara at 10.

Why? Is your idea of playing rugby kicking the ball whenever you get it?

hairyhippo

Sounds like fun. You're right. F. S

stephen_n

hairyhippo wrote: »

I think it's shame O'Leary is dropped, he is a far better number 9 compared to Reddan. Would love to see Sexton at number 15 and O'Gara at 10.

Yes the perfect combination for ten man rugby!

irishbucsfan

stephen_n wrote: »

Yes the perfect combination for ten man rugby!

I'd doubt we'll still have 10 players fit by the time the chamionship kicks off.

stephen_n

irishbucsfan wrote: »

I'd doubt we'll still have 10 players fit by the time the chamionship kicks off.

In the long run, I think these injuries will be good for us, bit worried about the back three against France but face facts Italy aren't going to hit us out wide and some of the fringe players will get good game time. We Know what Best and Flan can do so it will be good for Cronin and Varley to get a run. Hayes getting injured is a godsend for him and Ireland and for once I Think we would nearly have cover for every position on the pitch even if a lot of them haven't got game time at international before.