ginger hair?

wonton

This is one part of the migration of humans that always confuses me because most counties that have a genetic(or cultural even) feature that came from somewhere, that feature is usually still found there.

so I've read a few times that ginger hair was a viking thing....but ..I dont know....that just doesnt make sense to me...

like which area did they come from?

where did they go after ireland and scotland (if they did)?

did all the ginger vikings leave their country to never return?

If they never left, would norway and sweden have the gingerfest now?

was it a small few that just got their freak on in ireland and scotland?

gingernut79

I read somewhere that red hair is a defining feature of my dads paternal line all the way back to the Middle Ages in Northern england. Couldnt tell you if we're Vikings though...

AnonymousPrime

wonton wrote: »

like which area did they come from?

Dont know for certain but, but is southern Scandinavia not accurate enough?

wonton wrote: »

where did they go after ireland and scotland (if they did)?

All over europe, as far as the middle east and Persia

wonton wrote: »

did all the ginger vikings leave their country to never return?
If they never left, would norway and sweden have the gingerfest now?

There are a lot of gingers in norway/sweeden

wonton wrote: »

was it a small few that just got their freak on in ireland and scotland?

i dont get the relevance?

gingernut79 wrote: »

Couldnt tell you if we're Vikings though...

There were just as much vikings in northern england as in ireland

wonton

have you got a link?

I find it strange that its so unknown and doesnt mention it on wikipedia.

and that scotland is 13 percent ginger and i cant imagine norway or sweeden being anywhere near that number.

AnonymousPrime

A link to which?

The makeup of the pop of Norway/Sweeden is just an observation, no facts.

As for the history, Irish history podcast did a really good couple of episodes:
http://irishhistorypodcast.ie/2010/05/05/the-vikings-part-i/

dubhthach

Scotland has the highest number of redheads at about 13% of the population. Ireland is next at 4% however about 40% of the Irish population carry genes for redhair. As it's recessive you need to have at least two copies (one from both parents) to present.

I would think alot of the negativity you see about "Gingers" is tied in with English racism against Irish/Scottish migrants.

Genetically I show up as CC on my 2 MC1R genes. Which means I have average odds of been redheaded (I'm not). If I coded CT I would have greatly increased odds (carrier) whereas most redheads are coded TT.

Feckin_Eejit

A thousand years ago Tacitus had a lot to say about ginger haired people. Of the ‘Germans’ he said:

Hence, too, the same physical peculiarities throughout so vast a population. All have fierce blue eyes, red hair, huge frames, fit only for a sudden exertion.’ [Unde habitus quoque corporum, tamquam in tanto hominum numero, idem omnibus: truces et caerulei oculi, rutilae comae, magna corpora et tantum ad impetum valida: laboris atque operum non eadem patientia, minimeque sitim aestumque tolerare, frigora atque inediam caelo solove adsueverunt. (Germania Bk I:4)]

And of the Caledonians (inhabitants of Scotland) he said:

‘The red hair and large limbs of the inhabitants of Caledonia point clearly to a German origin.’ [Namque rutilae Caledoniam habitantium comae, magni artus Germanicam originem adseverant. (Agricola Bk I.11)]

So, to summarize, the Vikings, the Scandinavians, the Irish, the Scottish and the tribes of Continental ‘Germania’ frequently produce 'ginger nuts'. Is there a doctorate in there somewhere?

wonton

dubhthach wrote: »

Scotland has the highest number of redheads at about 13% of the population. Ireland is next at 4% however about 40% of the Irish population carry genes for redhair. As it's recessive you need to have at least two copies (one from both parents) to present.

I would think alot of the negativity you see about "Gingers" is tied in with English racism against Irish/Scottish migrants.

Genetically I show up as CC on my 2 MC1R genes. Which means I have average odds of been redheaded (I'm not). If I coded CT I would have greatly increased odds (carrier) whereas most redheads are coded TT.

wiki says ireland is ten percent.

dubhthach

Feckin_Eejit wrote: »

A thousand years ago Tacitus had a lot to say about ginger haired people. Of the ‘Germans’ he said:



And of the Caledonians (inhabitants of Scotland) he said:



So, to summarize, the Vikings, the Scandinavians, the Irish, the Scottish and the tribes of Continental ‘Germania’ frequently produce 'ginger nuts'. Is there a doctorate in there somewhere?

Already been done using Icelanders as the sample population (admixed "Germanic"/"Celtic" population)
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?cmd=Search&db=pubmed&term=17952075

Feckin_Eejit

Feckin_Eejit wrote: »

A thousand years ago Tacitus had a lot to say about ginger haired people.

I should have said 'two thousand years ago'. Concerning purity of race Tacitus also said:

‘For my own part, I agree with those who think that the tribes of Germany are free from all taint of intermarriages with foreign nations, and that they appear as a distinct, unmixed race, like none but themselves'. [Ipse eorum opinionibus accedo, qui Germaniae populos nullis aliis aliarum nationum conubiis infectos propriam et sinceram et tantum sui similem gentem exstitisse arbitrantur.]

I wonder did the Nazis pick up on that?

yoyo83

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_hair that tell u

Emme

I think that red hair is a Viking/Norman characteristic (there was a Viking king called Erik the Red). Both groups invaded Ireland at different time. I know of people from Southern Italy with red hair and the Normans invaded Southern Italy. The Vikings invaded Scotland and the rest of the UK but the Scots mightn't have mixed as much over the years, especially the Highlanders.

Maybe red hair is more common in Ireland because we're an island and there mightn't have been as much mixing as elsewhere. That might be why red hair is seen as a primarily Irish characteristic.

fontanalis

A little bit on red hair.
http://www.buildinghistory.org/distantpast/looks.shtml

Snickers Man

In eastern Europe, red hair used to be associated with Jews. So if you saw somebody from Poland, say, with red hair you could be fairly certain they were Jewish.

Anybody old enough to remember the famous Polish footballer from the 1970s and 1980s Zbigniew Boniek? He was noticeably red haired.

I have also seen red hair and blue eyes in eastern Turkey. Pretty sure they didn't come from any Irish forebear.

Morlar

Snickers Man wrote: »

In eastern Europe, red hair used to be associated with Jews. So if you saw somebody from Poland, say, with red hair you could be fairly certain they were Jewish.

....

I have also seen red hair and blue eyes in eastern Turkey. Pretty sure they didn't come from any Irish forebear.

Do you have any links which reinforce any of that ?

You may find individuals in Turkey with red hair and blue eyes but I am not sure of the relevance of that, you can find anomalies anywhere, it would not seem to be a turkish attribute.

Wolfe Tone

Is the ginger beard with dark hair an Irish thing?

Snickers Man

Morlar wrote: »

Do you have any links which reinforce any of that ?

You may find individuals in Turkey with red hair and blue eyes but I am not sure of the relevance of that, you can find anomalies anywhere, it would not seem to be a turkish attribute.

Personal experience, mate. Been there seen it. Don't have a "link" to my sojourn which predates the Internet. I'm not bleedin' Scotty from the Enterprise.

As for red hair being a Jewish phenomenon in Eastern Europe, well, that's a stereotype that I was told about by Jewish people. So I figure they would know. There is a reference in the novel Exodus to one of the main characters, who originates in Russia, having flaming red hair. Not that that's conclusive evidence but it's the closest thing to a "link" that I have.

Not all truth is accessible via hypertext, you know.

Morlar

TBH even with some kind of academmic study to say so I still wouldn't believe that red hair has a meaningful connection to east european jewry. Or of having a turkish connection.

I was just curious as to what the claims were based on, there will always be anomalies (ie a person of 2 turkish parents who has red hair and blue eyes) and an example of hearsay from a jewish person in this case is not enough to convince me.

Emme

Morlar wrote: »

TBH even with some kind of academmic study to say so I still wouldn't believe that red hair has a meaningful connection to east european jewry. Or of having a turkish connection.

I was just curious as to what the claims were based on, there will always be anomalies (ie a person of 2 turkish parents who has red hair and blue eyes) and an example of hearsay from a jewish person in this case is not enough to convince me.

Red hair and light colouring is associated with Ashkenazi (European) Jews. Sephardic (Mediterranean) Jews tend to have darker colouring.

Morlar

Emme wrote: »

Red hair and light colouring is associated with Ashkenazi (European) Jews. Sephardic (Mediterranean) Jews tend to have darker colouring.

Got to say I have never seen or heard of an east european jew having red hair. Certainly not as a matter of course. Does anyone have any links to any studies about this ?

dpe

Morlar wrote: »

Got to say I have never seen or heard of an east european jew having red hair. Certainly not as a matter of course. Does anyone have any links to any studies about this ?

Seen loads of red-headed Jews. Seems to be the Orthodox ones (or maybe that's just that I notice them more). Tell you a famous red-headed Jew; Jerry Stiller (King of Queens, Seinfeld).

As for where red-hair came from; I'm not entirely convinced by the Viking argument, because there's plenty of historical references to red heads in Britain/Ireland from earlier than that (Bouddica was described as a having fiery red-hair), and genetic geography is showing that populations are a lot more static in genetic terms than we assume (like the wholesale Saxon replacement of the Britons turns out to be a myth at a population level although obviously true at a cultural level).

dubhthach

The Ashkenazi are an interesting population mainly as they have heavy European Admixture. It seems also they suffered a population bottleneck in the 12-14th century. If you believe the history they had been mostly concentrated in the Rhineland and were expelled east during the period of Crusades/Plague.

The key difference compared to most European populations is the presence of "South-West Asian" as a genetic component. see:



In above sample the average about: 24.9% Southwest Asian, as well as 23.8% West Asian (most Europeans are about 10% west-asian in comparison)

Now if you believe Tacitus and other roman authors, red hair was quite common in Germany as well as Britian. Given that 40% of Irish people are carriers (even if only 10% have red hair) then I would be surprised that you see similar ratio in germany where 2% of population are red-headed -- so potentially 8% are carriers of relevant genes.

Snickers Man

Morlar wrote: »

Got to say I have never seen or heard of an east european jew having red hair. Certainly not as a matter of course. Does anyone have any links to any studies about this ?

I know Wikipedia is not authoratitive but if there is any truth to this link it would explain red hair in both Jews and some Turks. Given that the Khazars were from south west Asia. Near Turkey.

tac foley

Well, I'm Jewish, AND a red-head, AND half-Irish AND called Foley [OI - foghlada = plunderer/raider].

So I fit the invader/Jew profile exactly. :=)

tac

owenc

wonton wrote: »

have you got a link?

I find it strange that its so unknown and doesnt mention it on wikipedia.

and that scotland is 13 percent ginger and i cant imagine norway or sweeden being anywhere near that number.

They are more blond.

owenc

I'm pretty sure ginger hair originates in russia and inland eurasia it spread to norway and Sweden and because of immigration between scotland and their that is how it got to scotland, as to how it got to the republic of ireland i don't know because i'm pretty sure there was no Norwegians migrating there.

owenc

Morlar wrote: »

TBH even with some kind of academmic study to say so I still wouldn't believe that red hair has a meaningful connection to east european jewry. Or of having a turkish connection.

I was just curious as to what the claims were based on, there will always be anomalies (ie a person of 2 turkish parents who has red hair and blue eyes) and an example of hearsay from a jewish person in this case is not enough to convince me.

Exactly just because we have ginger hair doesn't mean we are jewish that is extremely irritating to say that actually. I'd like think that i didn't have turkish /jewish ancestry just because i have aunts with ginger hair thats silly.

MarchDub

owenc wrote: »

I'm pretty sure ginger hair originates in russia and inland eurasia it spread to norway and Sweden and because of immigration between scotland and their that is how it got to scotland, as to how it got to the republic of ireland i don't know because i'm pretty sure there was no Norwegians migrating there.

Vikings....

dubhthach

owenc wrote: »

I'm pretty sure ginger hair originates in russia and inland eurasia it spread to norway and Sweden and because of immigration between scotland and their that is how it got to scotland, as to how it got to the republic of ireland i don't know because i'm pretty sure there was no Norwegians migrating there.

Who founded Dublin, Wexford, Waterford, Cork and Limerick?

Again 40% of Irish people carry alleles for red hair. However most people are just carriers. Inflow from Vikings on male lineages in Ireland is about 3% (if we take Haplogroup R1a for example). In Scotland R1a comes in at about 8.5% of the male population. In comparison in Scandinavia you see:

• Norway -- R1a: 27%
• Sweden -- R1a: 19%
• Denmark -- R1a: 12%

Highest level of R1a in Europe is in Poland at 55% of all polish men.

Wibbs

Wolfe Tone wrote: »

Is the ginger beard with dark hair an Irish thing?

Good point WT and I wonder does anyone out there know this and why? *looks at dubhthach * While I know a fair few red haired folks, I know way more men with dark hair but pure ginger beards. Myself included(before the grey took over. My red hair has gone grey well before my dark, funny enough. Red seems to be more prone to going grey*?).

My dad was dark of hair and dark of beard, but his arm hair was clearly ginger. Similar for a couple of uncles on my mums side. The weirdest one is a cousin of my mums who when younger had a glorious shock of red hair(still has, now grey), but he had a jet black beard and again it went grey nigh on ten years after his red locks did. Never heard of that one.






*one great uncle of mine never really went grey. Lived to his mid nineties and died with an amazing head of black hair, with just the odd grey fleck. His beard didn't go grey much either. Kinda odd looking though.

Gee Bag

Morlar wrote: »

You may find individuals in Turkey with red hair and blue eyes but I am not sure of the relevance of that, you can find anomalies anywhere, it would not seem to be a turkish attribute.

Red haired Turks are generally attributed to the movement of central European tribes to Galatia in Asia Minor during the Iron Age. The Galatians became Hellenised but retained strong Celtic cultural traits until the fifth century AD.

I know that Pliny mentions them in the Naturalis Historia and i've read about them elsewhere.

Try Miranda Green's 'The Celtic World'. I don't know if this theory has been verified by DNA profiling.

owenc

Wibbs wrote: »

Good point WT and I wonder does anyone out there know this and why? *looks at dubhthach * While I know a fair few red haired folks, I know way more men with dark hair but pure ginger beards. Myself included(before the grey took over. My red hair has gone grey well before my dark, funny enough. Red seems to be more prone to going grey*?).

My dad was dark of hair and dark of beard, but his arm hair was clearly ginger. Similar for a couple of uncles on my mums side. The weirdest one is a cousin of my mums who when younger had a glorious shock of red hair(still has, now grey), but he had a jet black beard and again it went grey nigh on ten years after his red locks did. Never heard of that one. ... I also must day that my underarm hair is not Ginger but a Gingery brown colour
So something similar to your dad... I'm just thankful I don't have Ginger here here blond hair there and brown hair there that would be embaressing



*one great uncle of mine never really went grey. Lived to his mid nineties and died with an amazing head of black hair, with just the odd grey
fleck. His beard didn't go grey much either. Kinda odd looking though.

Another weird one is to have bits of Ginger hair in between your mostly brown hair my nextdoor neighbors hair is like that and I must say it looks a bit freaky... Another one is blond hair I was born with blond hair (I had it too I was 5) which is weird but now it's light brown so that must mean I have the blond hair gene aswell

dubhthach

From what I've read one of the main genes connected to Red hair is MC1R which resides on Chromosome 16. Every person has two copies of this gene, one they inherit from their father, other from their mother.

So for example a version of this gene can give redhair, if you carry both copies you probably a real redhead. If you only carry one copy of the "red version" then depending on what the other copy is you could range from light red to for example brown with a red tinge.

Alot of Irish people have a red tinge to their hair. As mentioned about 40% of Irish people in general are carriers of red hair. Of course even then there are variations on the gene, which for example might give different shades of red etc.

man1

owenc wrote: »

I'm pretty sure ginger hair originates in russia and inland eurasia it spread to norway and Sweden and because of immigration between scotland and their that is how it got to scotland, as to how it got to the republic of ireland i don't know because i'm pretty sure there was no Norwegians migrating there.

This is mad Ted!!!

tac foley

When I lived in Ankara in the early 70's, finishing off my Turkish language course, the family I lived with were ALL light-brown or red-heads and blue-eyed, and a v.fine-lookin' bunch they were, too. The father and mother were both lawyers, so were two sons, and the daughter [who got married about a week after I arrived] was one of the first female psychiatrists in Turkey.

They were Circassian and members of one of the largest groups of incomers into Turkey after the Russian-Caucasus War of 1862.

My Turkish language tutor, Osman Behic, was a dead ringer for Art Garfunkel, and used that to pull the gals in Nicosia, where the language school was situated.

tac