Casual Homophobia

Killer_banana

Okay so this is more a rant then anything else but anyway.

Was waiting for a bus with two friends after being at the cinema and we met a girl from school who was going out with her friend. Were talking about what we had been up recently and she asked about the film. We were just telling her what it was about and my friend said something about a lesbian scene in it. She replied 'Oh I can't go see it then. You know what I'm like with lesbians.' Her friend was like 'What? I thought we were gonna get with each other tonight. I love messing with her little homophobic mind.' I wasn't particularly offended I just don't understand why it's okay to be homophobic as long as you're casual abut it. Being blasé about prejudices doesn't make you any less prejudiced.

I'm confident and secure about my sexuality but what if she said that about someone who wasn't? How would that make them feel? I know homophobics don't generally think about that but I just don't get why people in general seem to accept it. I'm gonna stop now before I get into a full on rant.

Dr. Baltar

I'm sorry now, but this is what really irks me about the LGBT community.
How is someone being uncomfortable with gay scenes in a movie/show the equivalent of them being homophobic?

bodice ripper

why was that homophobic? unless she followed it with something else...

I mean, I might not want to see old people having sex, but that doesn't mean I think they aren't people or what they do is wrong.

Ambersky

Being uncomfortable with gay sex scenes in a movie simply because the scene involves two people of the same sex is practically one of the definitions of homophobia.

It dosent mean you want to hurt homosexuals or anything, necessarily, although some people justify beating up gays because of the aversion they felt at seeing gays, kissing openly, or walk around holding hands, or trying to get legal recognition for themselves.

Being uncomfortable with sex scenes involving older people in a movie for the sole reason that they are older participants and not because it was shot badly or the story line was poorly written, is called ageism.

Being uncomfortable with a scene involving two young people of the opposite sex is called......well good taste if the scene is done badly.

Thats because we take it that sex scenes between men and women are normal not an issue.
Heterosex is so not an issue and so taken for granted that we dont even talk about it.

And another thing before everyone goes getting all defensive or upset, the theory goes we all have it, homophobia internalised or otherwise, ageism, sexism, racism, classism etc. These things are not only personal they are, and this is the important bit Institutionalised, they are so much part of our culture we take them so much for granted, we dont even see how these isms operate.
So there will be times when I, you, we all will be faced with our homophobia, sexism, racism, classism, we will feel it but I think the best thing to do is admit it to ourselves at least and deal with it, see it get over and get rid of it when and as you can.
And of course the reason it matters is because it hurts people.
We are all entitled to a sense of humour but you know when someone is laughing with you and when someone is laughing at you, dismissing or mariginalising you.

Some people are not happy with the term homophobia because they feel the origional meaning of an actual fear is not accurate enough they prefer to use the terms homonegativity, homoprejudice, and even homo-ignorance.
http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/gays-anatomy/200810/behind-acts-homophobia-are-homo-ignorance-and-homo-avoidance

Some people of course deny that there is any phobia ignorance negativity or aversion at all believing that they just feel a negative personal feeling towards gays that is unrelated to their social upbringing.
And some claim that they have a justifiable objection to homosexuals that is just being called homophobia but is actually rightous anger.

Homophobia takes a lot of forms some, like an aversion to seeing gays in film is less serious than others but they are all related.

Manifestations of Homophobia
Both on a conscious or sub-conscious level, homophobia surfaces in various ways and can even be internalised.

* Homophobic Attitudes
Feelings or convictions that gays and lesbians are abnormal or sick

* Homophobia-inspired Heterosexism
The false belief that everybody is heterosexual and that only heterosexuality is acceptable and legitimate' This belief is based on the idea that the majority sets the norm

* Homophobic Language
The use of vocabulary and expressions that can span from jokes to insults

* Interpersonal Homophobia
Non-verbal displays of being ill-at-ease, feeling unsafe or experiencing fear when in contact with gay men and/or lesbians

* Institutionalised/Systemic Homophobia
The built-in institutional practice of putting gays and lesbians at a disadvantage

* Opportunistic Homophobia
Being interested in homosexuality solely for financial or personal gain, and not wanting to be associated with being homosexual or with gay men and lesbians

* Internalised Homophobia
An often sub-conscious form of homophobia that is a product of education and social values passed down by society' Gay men and lesbians, too, can adopt homophobic behaviour

* Condoned (passive) Homophobia
Silence or lack of response to acts of homophobic language or behaviour that call for someone to intervene and put an end to them

* Homophobic Violence
An extreme display of homophobia that leads to violence and can range from verbal assault to hate crimes

bodice ripper

Ambersky wrote: »

Being uncomfortable with gay sex scenes in a movie simply because the scene involves two people of the same sex is practically one of the definitions of homophobia.

It dosent mean you want to hurt homosexuals or anything, necessarily, although some people justify beating up gays because of the aversion they felt at seeing gays, kissing openly, or walk around holding hands, or trying to get legal recognition for themselves.

Being uncomfortable with sex scenes involving older people in a movie for the sole reason that they are older participants and not because it was shot badly or the story line was poorly written, is called ageism.

Nonsense. there all sort of things I personally don't feel comofortable watching - not just sexual

I don't like watching people being awkward or uncomfortable - so I won't watch Peep Show. I don't like watching people being hacked to death, or potentially being hack to death. I would rather not watch older people having sex/people who might be underage haing sex even when I believe they are not underage/ I find very skinny women off-putting etc.

So am I now ageist/ wry-humourphobic/ anti-horror/ anti-youth/ a feminist with who believes fat = curvy etc?

I am not saying the young woman in question isn't a jerk with a problem with gay people, I am just saying that there is not a great deal of info there to form that opinion

Killer_banana

I'm not saying being uncomfortable with lesbian sex scenes makes her a homophobic. When she said 'You know what I'm like with lesbians,' she didn't just mean sex scenes. I know I didn't explain that really well so sorry about that. And I'm nto assuming, I knwo she's pretty homophobic generally. Was too tired to make much sense last night

I'll admit that the example I gave was a **** example, I was tired and in a crap mood so I wasn't making much sense in general. Honestly now I'm feeling better it's a stupid topic and the question I asked I can probably answer myself to be honest. If I could delete this topic I would. If a mod wants to lock it go ahead unless someone wants to keep it open for discussion.

A lemon

So basically, the girl has been put off seeing Black Swan only because there's a lesbian sex scene in it. Homophobic? Perhaps, but mainly a total moron.

St._Andalou

The key phrase here is not the sex scene, which a lot of you are focusing on. It's this sentence in bold: "Oh I can't go see it then. You know what I'm like with lesbians."

Bottle_of_Smoke

The "You know what I'm like with lesbians." is key.

Are there any cases of literal homophobia? What I mean here is homophobia doesn't refer to an irrational fear of homosexuals, and instead refers to bigotry and hatred toward homosexuals.

If so, maybe same sex scenes make her sqeamish much like even the sight of a tarantula makes Arachnaphobics terrified.

Though my money's on the bigotry here to be honest. Casual homophobia I think is worst in the ''That's ghey'' referring to a range of negative occurences.

Rev Hellfire

Someone disliking something doesn't make them a bigot.

Beruthiel

Killer_banana wrote: »

. I know I didn't explain that really well so sorry about that. And I'm nto assuming, I knwo she's pretty homophobic generally.

If you know that she is homophobic, why are you even hanging around with her?

St._Andalou

Rev Hellfire wrote: »

Someone disliking something doesn't make them a bigot.

Uh, yes, it does. Disliking cheese doesn't make me a bigot. Disliking a group of people for no valid reason does make someone a bigot.

A bigot is a person obstinately or intolerantly devoted to his or her own opinions and prejudices, especially one exhibiting intolerance, and animosity toward those of differing beliefs. The predominant usage in modern English refers to persons hostile to those of differing race, ethnicity, nationality, sexual orientation, various mental disorders, or religion

Not liking a girl who is a lesbian (for personal reasons that do not relate to her sexuality) or not liking lesbian sex scenes is fair enough. Saying "you know what I'm like with lesbians" when the context is "I can't stand lesbians" for no reason whatsoever is the very definition of bigotry.

I'm surprised by how many long-standing members of this board are defending her or accusing the OP of overreacting.

St._Andalou

"You know what I'm like with Indians. I can't stand them."

How would this go down in social circles? Not too well, I imagine.

Sir Ophiuchus

Rev Hellfire wrote: »

Someone disliking something doesn't make them a bigot.

"I can't go see it then. You know how I am with black people."

baby and crumble

I love messing with people like that and making them uncomfortable too. I'd probably just go "And you know what I'm like with lesbians!!!" and wiggle my eyebrows seductively.

Ok, I'd probably end up looking stoned (i don't really 'do' seduction, sadly), but hey! Life's too short.

DS333

It's a bit harsh to brand her as homophobic. My brother is 100% supportive, encourges me to get out and meet someone and sincerely hopes that I will. He has no problem at all with people being gay but he does find it hard to cope with simulated gay sex on screen. Yes, he does look at gay films with me and enjoys them, but I make sure that they're pretty mild in that department - out of respect for him. He's never said so, but I know by just watching him that he's uncomfortable. Surely, we all find things embarrassing, we all have likes and dislikes. Perhaps the girl was a bit naive in saying so. She might well have been horrified if you had been offended.

Endymion

Sir Ophiuchus wrote: »

"I can't go see it then. You know how I am with black people."

Is that really the same. Such black and white mindsets are awfully tedious. In brokeback mountain you see two men engage in very overt displays of sex, which made even other gay men uncomfortable. It's been suggested in this thread that failure to enjoy watching two men or two women riding is somehow a character flaw.

This type of extremist view point really just makes life harder for the rest of us. This unwillingness to accept that others have an absolutely right to be uncomfortable about whatever they want, once that discomfort doesn't manifest itself negatively upon those around them.

St._Andalou wrote: »

Uh, yes, it does. Disliking cheese doesn't make me a bigot. Disliking a group of people for no valid reason does make someone a bigot.

Valid is a subjective term.

St._Andalou wrote: »

Not liking a girl who is a lesbian (for personal reasons that do not relate to her sexuality) or not liking lesbian sex scenes is fair enough. Saying "you know what I'm like with lesbians" when the context is "I can't stand lesbians" for no reason whatsoever is the very definition of bigotry.

I'm surprised by how many long-standing members of this board are defending her or accusing the OP of overreacting.

What about not liking someone because after you've informed them politely that you're not comfortable with Lesbian sexual relations, they try to hit on you? That to me, is behaving like a child.

Chuchoter

You're completely missing the point. She said she didn't want to see the film purely for the fact it had lesbians in it. If you said you didn't want to watch a film because a black person in it you'd be killed, and rightly so.

Endymion

Killed? A bit extreme? I don't think you would be killed. Any grouping of the even moderately intelligent should be able to recognise that a film specifically about African-American, Muslim, Irish, British, African etc, culture isn't going to appeal to everyone. Brass tax, the person had no interest in seeing a film about Lesbians. Personally, I'd have very little interest in seeing a film about Lesbians. Some prospective is needed. It's not like she said others shouldn't see the film or that the film should be banned. She was merely exercising her personal free will without affecting others. Some tolerance is needed.

Killer_banana

If you know that she is homophobic, why are you even hanging around with her?

I didn't ask if she was homophobic, I asked why casual homophobia was acceptable. I then said that now I'm less sleep deprived e.t.c that I regretted setting it up in the first place 'cause I after thinking about it I now feel like it's kind of a redundant question and I did apologise for the original post which was phrased pretty awfully and just made me sound like I was nitpicking.

Chuchoter

Endymion wrote: »

Killed? A bit extreme? I don't think you would be killed. Any grouping of the even moderately intelligent should be able to recognise that a film specifically about African-American, Muslim, Irish, British, African etc, culture isn't going to appeal to everyone. Brass tax, the person had no interest in seeing a film about Lesbians. Personally, I'd have very little interest in seeing a film about Lesbians. Some prospective is needed. It's not like she said others shouldn't see the film or that the film should be banned. She was merely exercising her personal free will without affecting others. Some tolerance is needed.

First of all, you know full well that killed didn't mean I attack you with a hammer and literally kill you Nice try though.

Black Swan isn't about lesbians, its about ballet, expectations and insanity. It just happens to involve lesbians. Its like in iRobot. Its about killer robots, but Will Smith is Black. If I said I don't want to see iRobot because it has a black guy in it, I would be strongly reprimanded, if that wording suits you better.

However, back to the original point of the thread. I think casual homophobia is rife in Ireland. It is OK to attack gay people in the media, its ok to say gay/****** in front of a teacher, there is no sexuality module in SPHE, stereotypes of gay people are used to mock and ridicule in TV shows and films constantly. The worst part is though, people think they are so progressive because they aren't chasing us with pitchforks anymore. They think we are all equal because we are allowed to exist at all, if without legal recognition. We're on TV, surely that means homophobia is gone.

Ambersky

Killer_banana dont feel bad. Your initial post is very interesting if anyones stirring things its me. You didnt provoke me into it, homophobia is a topic Im interested in and Ive written about it elsewhere. I have a particular perspective on it and if it stirs a debate well and good.
I dont think it should stir a fight or any ill will.
Its my opinion that the mention of homophobia, especially internalised homophobia dosent go down to well, on these boards anyway.
The fact that you were not immediately supported and feel apologetic is to my mind a sign of the extent of the power of homophobia.
It is suppose to make you feel you were the one to blame for taking things too seriously, for mentioning it, for feeling anything, it is designed to make all of us LGBT to feel it is actually all our fault and we have been going on about it too much.

As I have said before it is my understanding that growing up in our culture one can not help but have homophobia, racism, sexism, etc within you.
Also like coming out, growing out of these things is an ongoing process, you dont one day get enlightened and declare, well Im over that I am no longer

---

.
Little bits still remain and a person is constantanty finding that while they thought they were cool they still have negative feelings. By admiting those feelings to oneself it gives you an opportunity to change.
Everyone is indeed entitled to their feelings. If you think you are cool about gays but feel disgust seeing gays kissing well look at that in yourself. It wont change immediately but over time people get use to things, they change and grow, sometimes by thinking about it and sometimes by being exposed to what was unfamiliar.
But lets be able to call a spade a spade. Homophobia is all over the place I did post a long list of the various manifestations in a previous post.

Therefore it is not a harsh accusation, it is not a matter of calling someone homophobic and declaring that that is what they are, fixed and no hope for them. No ones hitting anyone over the head.

Yes I think there was more in the Op than just liking or not liking watching lesbian sex scenes.
I was actually responding to the first reply to the OP which came from
Dr. Baltar

I'm sorry now, but this is what really irks me about the LGBT community.
How is someone being uncomfortable with gay scenes in a movie/show the equivalent of them being homophobic?

I was responding to Dr Baltar asking how is someone being uncomfortable with gay scenes in a movie the equivalent of them being homophobic?
I was glad Sir Ophiuculus said

"I can't go see it then. You know how I am with black people."

making a comparison on how we would feel if the OP was about race
And St Andalou said

“"You know what I'm like with Indians. I can't stand them."

Being uncomfortable watching a sex scene and specifiying your discomfort to be about the participants colour or age or sexual orientation is about the thing not the sex. The sex just takes your eye off the ball as it were.
If you were to say I don’t like watching other people having sex thats about the sex.
If you say I don’t like watching non consensual sex thats not even about sex its about power and control, its about abuse and caring for another human being.
I think sometimes people say they dont "like" watching gay sex, or they are not "into" watching gay sex, or tell others or make sounds expressing their disgust at seeing gay sex because they dont want people to think it turns them on.
I see straight sex on film all the time, well sex that is at least as graphic as any lesbian or gay sex Ive seen on film and I dont need to express the fact that that is not the kind of sex that turns me on in real life.
You can just see it as part of the story line and not have to go on about whether or not it personally turns you on.
Again watching young straight people having sex in film we dont feel the need or entitlement to express our discomfort no matter what our sexual orientation, its usually just a part of the film.

However the OP was all about a young gay person declaring their anger, irritation at the freedom someone had to publicly declare their aversion to lesbians in front of her.

Sir Ophiuchus

crayolastereo wrote: »

However, back to the original point of the thread. I think casual homophobia is rife in Ireland. It is OK to attack gay people in the media, its ok to say gay/****** in front of a teacher, there is no sexuality module in SPHE, stereotypes of gay people are used to mock and ridicule in TV shows and films constantly. The worst part is though, people think they are so progressive because they aren't chasing us with pitchforks anymore. They think we are all equal because we are allowed to exist at all, if without legal recognition. We're on TV, surely that means homophobia is gone.

Thank you, yes. This is important.

diddlybit

Killer_banana wrote: »

'Oh I can't go see it then. You know what I'm like with lesbians.'

Focusing on this as just a discomfort with a particular scene ignores the fact that, this girl's discomfort probabaly spills over into all facets of her life. No-one is homophobic in a bubble even though they may protest to the fact otherwise for the sake of liberalism.

It's like that the adage, "I don't mind gay people but...*insert offensive conclusion here*"

There are plenty of people out there who are in full support of queer rights but, at the same time, will gawk at a couple holding hands, laugh at or make homophobic jokes and display visible discomfort when they meet non-hetreonormative folk. No-one wants to be labelled a bigot, but behavior expresses a lot more than what an individual says.

And yes...all these comments are off-hand and done in jest. And yes...we may all have built up thick skins over the years to stop them having an effect. But the sheer pervasiveness of such comments occascionally wears thin and frankly, I don't think I should have to listen to them or say nothing for the sake of peace.

The next time some drunken eejit finds the need to express to me how much "He loves lesbians" (never quite as fond of gay men however, but thank you for your appreciation of my bedroom activites) when I'm out having a quiet pint with my partner, or someone mutters "dyke" at me while buying milk, (just in case I've forgotten my sexuality) or refers to something as gay when in actual fact it's just s***te (fuzzy semantics here, not homophobia), I may have to punch them.

Of course, that would be uncalled for, because all these things are said in jest.

Dr. Baltar

The American Accent Drives me mental.
If a friend asks me "Are you going to watch the US version of Skins?" and I answer "No, you know how I am with Americans" does that make me a bigot?

St._Andalou

Dr. Baltar wrote: »

The American Accent Drives me mental.
If a friend asks me "Are you going to watch the US version of Skins?" and I answer "No, you know how I am with Americans" does that make me a bigot?

Huh? That's a complete tangent.

The context is completely different. The fact is, many people focused on the sex scene here. That wasn't the issue. The girl in question essentially said, for no reason whatsoever, she disliked lesbians. Yes, that does make her a bigot.

And at any rate, the American accent is lovely.

Dr. Baltar

St._Andalou wrote: »

The girl in question essentially said, for no reason whatsoever, she disliked lesbians.

No she didn't. She said "you know how I am with Lesbians".

I said "you know how I am with Americans".

Neither of those sentences are the equivalent of "I dislike x" nor are they bigoted statements in either way.

PeakOutput

crayolastereo wrote: »

You're completely missing the point. She said she didn't want to see the film purely for the fact it had lesbians in it. If you said you didn't want to watch a film because a black person in it you'd be killed, and rightly so.

i dont want to watch and probably never will watch brokeback mountain and that is mainly because of the storyline

i also say fag.got , que.er etc regularly ( i curse a lot in general not the best quality but whatever) i do my best to not say these words when i am around my gay friends / aquaintances for the very reason that me saying them has nothing to do with sexuality but i understand that to them it might/will and thats not fair on them just like i dont say nig.ger around my black friends / acquaintances. similarly if somebody calls me a fag.got the last thing that crosses my mind is that he actually thinks im homosexual.

everyone should be treated equally, everyone should have all the same legal rights as anyone else, everyone has a right to do and be with whoever they want but i have the right to not enjoy watching two guys kissing or having sex, it dosnt turn my stomach, it dosnt make me feel repulsed (well the idea of me doing it does i guess but not seeing someone else do it) i just dont like seeing it, its not a pleasant thing to look at, sorry.

and while i know people (maybe most people) here will think different, none of the above makes me homophobic

Dr. Baltar

PeakOutput wrote: »

i dont want to watch and probably never will watch brokeback mountain and that is mainly because of the storyline

i also say fag.got , que.er etc regularly ( i curse a lot in general not the best quality but whatever) i do my best to not say these words when i am around my gay friends / aquaintances for the very reason that me saying them has nothing to do with sexuality but i understand that to them it might/will and thats not fair on them just like i dont say nig.ger around my black friends / acquaintances. similarly if somebody calls me a fag.got the last thing that crosses my mind is that he actually thinks im homosexual.

everyone should be treated equally, everyone should have all the same legal rights as anyone else, everyone has a right to do and be with whoever they want but i have the right to not enjoy watching two guys kissing or having sex, it dosnt turn my stomach, it dosnt make me feel repulsed (well the idea of me doing it does i guess but not seeing someone else do it) i just dont like seeing it, its not a pleasant thing to look at, sorry.

and while i know people (maybe most people) here will think different, none of the above makes me homophobic

I'm not straight and I agree completely. It's not about what you say but what your intentions are.

Dr Bolouswki

diddlybit wrote: »

The next time some drunken eejit finds the need to express to me how much "He loves lesbians" .

If you lighten up, I think you'll find they are mocking convention. Or at least, I hope they are!

Ambersky

It sounds to me like the OP has a healthy sense of self and that she recognised an affront to herself and other lesbians and named it for what it was, homophobic behaviour.
She even knew enough to define it correctly as casual homophobia.
She tells us that this is not the first time she has heard the girl from school commenting negatively on Lesbians and Gays.
“I'm nto assuming, I knwo she's pretty homophobic generally”

While some people think homophobia can only be expressed as as a violent or political act, the kinds of casual, regular, negative, snide or supposedly funny comments gay people and especially young gay people have to listen to can have very serious consequences.
I personally am not all that hung up on whether members here accept that someone saying they have difficulty watching lesbian or gay sex scenes are expressing a kind of casual homophobia, Im more concerned with the fact that the OP has reported that she has observed the other schoolgirl being homophobic and was looking for support in questioning why it seemed so acceptable.

It is important to name these acts not in order to proportion blame but in order to direct the focus onto its cause.
When we do not name something as homophobia what usually happens is the focus is misdirected onto the gay person.
It is similar to what can happen to victims of crime.
Why were you there? What were you doing hanging around with her?
Why did you take it so seriously? Don’t you have any sense of humour?
"Thats never happened to me, what is it about you that has it happening to you?"

Then come the contradictions and denials, telling you that you dont have a right to talk about your experience that way,
“it didn’t happen the way you say, at least not the way you are taking it up”.
“You misunderstood”
“You consented, you provoked it"
"It was all just a bit of fun, no one was hurt"

And then finally we begin to blame ourselves “I was tired at the time, Im sorry for going on about it, I know I need to develop a thicker skin, I know I do take things too seriously”

Its a necessary thing to develop survival stratagies, like learning quips you can throw out in reply and some of us do have thicker skins than others but the first thing to remember is – ITS NOT YOU, ITS THEM.
Some days you may deal with it better than others, sometimes you may choose to protect yourself and keep your head down, some days it may sound like you have made a fool of yourself in your upset attempting to confront it, but remember its not you, its not your fault you are doing your best and maybe even being quite heroic in the attempt.
You may, in fact, in this society we all have to learn to cope, but first of all lets name what it is you have to cope with.
Its a bit like alcoholism, in that, the first step is to name it amidst all the denial and then you can get on with life and how to live to the best of your potential whatever your circumstances.

From a document sent out to teachers in schools.
http://www.glen.ie/education/pdfs/181007%20GLEN%20DL-%20smaller%20file.pdf
A recent report (Supporting LGBT Lives) funded by the National Office for Suicide
Prevention of the Health Service Executive found that the most common age that
people realise they are lesbian, gay or bisexual is 12 years and the most common
age that they disclose this to others (‘come out’) is 17 years. Some of the key
findings from this study in which 1,110 lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgendered
(LGBT) people participated, relate to the safety, participation and support of
people in school: (quotes also from Supporting LGBT Lives)

• 58% reported the existence of homophobic bullying in their schools;
• Over 50% had been called abusive names by fellow students;
• 34% reported homophobic comments by teachers and other staff members;
• 25% had been physically threatened by peers;
• 40% had been verbally threatened by fellow students because they were or
were thought to be LGBT.

• 72% felt that they couldn’t be themselves at school;
• 20% admitted to missing school because they felt threatened or were afraid
of getting hurt at school;
• 5% left school early because of how they were treated as a consequence
of their LGBT identity.

• 60% felt that there wasn’t a teacher or other adult in school that they
could talk to;
• Only 4% said there was open discussion of LGBT issues in
Anti-Bullying seminars;
• Only 4% said that there was a written policy to protect LGBT students from
homophobic bullying.

What you can do as a teacher to support students?
• The most supportive thing you can do is to not allow homophobic namecalling
of any description in any situation. Treat homophobic bullying as you
would any other form of bullying, for example racist bullying

What can you do to challenge homophobic behaviour and attitudes?
• Challenge yourself! Do you assume that all the young people you teach, or
indeed your colleagues, are heterosexual?
• Challenge others when you hear words like ‘gay’ being used to insult or
put-down others.
• Challenge your colleagues to seriously address the issue of homophobic
bullying. For example start by discussing it at a staff meeting.
• Request that training on relevant sexual orientation issues and diversity
issues be provided to you and the entire staff.

DS333

But there's nothing "casual" about the HSE report.

I understand that we're sensitive. A blow upon a bruise hurts more for obvious reasons. But can't we become overly sensitive? And, if we are, won't we be constantly and continuously upset, sad, depressed? We'll never be happy. I've found myself at times churning over some relatively mild comment long after it was forgotten and making myself miserable. For what?

Sadly, I don't see the day coming when we'll be fully accepted. In fact, things seem to be going in the other direction all of a sudden. I'm not saying we should tolerate this, but I do think that we have to distance ourselves to a certain degree from it; like a doctor from his patients. If we don't, life won't be worth living.

Straight men have been experiencing a serious bashing all over the place, in TV ads, etc, but they're not losing sleep over it.

I wish we did live in a perfect, homophile world but it would really depress me to know that we're all unhappy because we don't. There seem, to me, to be behaviours we should never tolerate and others we should shrug off. If only to keep our sanity.

Oh, God... Perhaps I've grown up with such severe homophobia since I was a child that I've developed rhino hide. Maybe I haven't a hope in hell of understanding those who have more delicate integuments.

I almost wish I hadn't written this because I don't want to upset anyone. I would hate to think that KB is unhappy because some asinine bimbo made an even more asinine comment. If she's not unhappy and just annoyed by the creature's idiocy, well, that I can live with.:)

Jinxi

Maybe she didn't finish her sentence...
"oh you know how I am with lesbians...I can't see one without wanting to burst into song about my own need to get some serious lesbian lovin' ":D

I see this casual homophobia all the time. I work as a teacher and one day I had been talking about my partner to the class and someone asked what age is he? I said, " who said my partner is a he" and two of my (adult) students jumped up and screamed and ran to the other side of the room????
WTF

Chuchoter

DS333 wrote: »

But there's nothing "casual" about the HSE report.

I understand that we're sensitive. A blow upon a bruise hurts more for obvious reasons. But can't we become overly sensitive? And, if we are, won't we be constantly and continuously upset, sad, depressed? We'll never be happy. I've found myself at times churning over some relatively mild comment long after it was forgotten and making myself miserable. For what?

Sadly, I don't see the day coming when we'll be fully accepted. In fact, things seem to be going in the other direction all of a sudden. I'm not saying we should tolerate this, but I do think that we have to distance ourselves to a certain degree from it; like a doctor from his patients. If we don't, life won't be worth living.

Straight men have been experiencing a serious bashing all over the place, in TV ads, etc, but they're not losing sleep over it.

I wish we did live in a perfect, homophile world but it would really depress me to know that we're all unhappy because we don't. There seem, to me, to be behaviours we should never tolerate and others we should shrug off. If only to keep our sanity.

Oh, God... Perhaps I've grown up with such severe homophobia since I was a child that I've developed rhino hide. Maybe I haven't a hope in hell of understanding those who have more delicate integuments.

I almost wish I hadn't written this because I don't want to upset anyone. I would hate to think that KB is unhappy because some asinine bimbo made an even more asinine comment. If she's not unhappy and just annoyed by the creature's idiocy, well, that I can live with.:)

It doesn't matter when you bash straight men because we all know they run the show anyway.

The issue isn't that we're being sensitive, the example that the OP posted was merely an example, but the issue is very pervasive throughout Irish society. Wanting to live in a society where its not OK for absolutely everyone to attack you and your identity with absolutely no retribution is not being sensitive. If we were to take that attitude we'd be stuck back in the 50s in terms of LGBT issues.

Endymion

crayolastereo wrote: »

First of all, you know full well that killed didn't mean I attack you with a hammer and literally kill you Nice try though.

Why make a comment which you've no expectation of being taken seriously. You wouldn't be killed, infact you'd probably no be challenged in the least.

crayolastereo wrote: »

Black Swan isn't about lesbians, its about ballet, expectations and insanity. It just happens to involve lesbians. Its like in iRobot. Its about killer robots, but Will Smith is Black. If I said I don't want to see iRobot because it has a black guy in it, I would be strongly reprimanded, if that wording suits you better.

Spoiler alert. Anyway. The point I'm making is you can't live life being absolutely rigid in your world views. It isn't a good thing that someone is uncomfortable with homosexuality, but that doesn't mean they should be cast down with all the wicked and sinful. If someone doesn't try to inflict their prejudices upon me, then I'm happy to live and let live.

crayolastereo wrote: »

However, back to the original point of the thread. I think casual homophobia is rife in Ireland. It is OK to attack gay people in the media, its ok to say gay/****** in front of a teacher, there is no sexuality module in SPHE, stereotypes of gay people are used to mock and ridicule in TV shows and films constantly. The worst part is though, people think they are so progressive because they aren't chasing us with pitchforks anymore. They think we are all equal because we are allowed to exist at all, if without legal recognition. We're on TV, surely that means homophobia is gone.

But I like will and grace

Chuchoter

Endymion wrote: »

Why make a comment which you've no expectation of being taken seriously. You wouldn't be killed, infact you'd probably no be challenged in the least.

At this point I'm assuming English isn't your first language or you have never lived in Ireland. We all know that 'killing' someone, in that context, does not imply actual murder. I guarantee you you would be challenged.

Spoiler alert. Anyway. The point I'm making is you can't live life being absolutely rigid in your world views. It isn't a good thing that someone is uncomfortable with homosexuality, but that doesn't mean they should be cast down with all the wicked and sinful. If someone doesn't try to inflict their prejudices upon me, then I'm happy to live and let live.



But I like will and grace

Not spoilers, haven't seen the film yet, going on the ad
In any case, maybe you are OK with being complacent with a society that views you as an object of ridicule. I'm not.

Also, I haven't ever seen Will and Grace, but going on the ads, that show would be grand had we a plethora of alternate representations of LGBT people in the media, like straight people have of themselves. Instead we really only have a handful in the scheme of the whole of TV and a minuscule amount of gay/bi women.

Endymion

crayolastereo wrote: »

At this point I'm assuming English isn't your first language or you have never lived in Ireland. We all know that 'killing' someone, in that context, does not imply actual murder. I guarantee you you would be challenged.

Are you seriously accusing me of being a foreigner. At this point in time I'm going to assume you haven't left secondary education.

Jayus jacinta, don' le aneone har you sa' dat, he bloody well murder yea.

crayolastereo wrote: »

Not spoilers, haven't seen the film yet, going on the ad
In any case, maybe you are OK with being complacent with a society that views you as an object of ridicule. I'm not.

I think we're talking about different things. I didn't see any ridicule in what was posted so far. Someone honestly saying "I'm not comfortable around homosexual displays of affection, in real life or in the cinema" isn't ridicule. It's someone stating a somewhat disappointing, but respectful opinion. Not everything is black and white.

crayolastereo wrote: »

Also, I haven't ever seen Will and Grace, but going on the ads, that show would be grand had we a plethora of alternate representations of LGBT people in the media, like straight people have of themselves. Instead we really only have a handful in the scheme of the whole of TV and a minuscule amount of gay/bi women.

I think the mistake is that you're looking to TV to be a source of education rather than what it actually is, a source of entertainment.

Endymion

crayolastereo wrote: »

It doesn't matter when you bash straight men because we all know they run the show anyway.

That is an absolutely pathetic attitude to take towards anyone or any grouping. You are going on my ignore list.

Chuchoter

Endymion wrote: »

Are you seriously accusing me of being a foreigner. At this point in time I'm going to assume you haven't left secondary education.

Jayus jacinta, don' le aneone har you sa' dat, he bloody well murder yea.

Ok so you knew exactly what I was saying the entire time. Why did you even bring it up?

I think we're talking about different things. I didn't see any ridicule in what was posted so far. Someone honestly saying "I'm not comfortable around homosexual displays of affection, in real life or in the cinema" isn't ridicule. It's someone stating a somewhat disappointing, but respectful opinion. Not everything is black and white.

Why would you be uncomfortable around expressions of gay affection if you take no heed of it from straight people? Is that not ridicule? Is viewing one sexuality as something to avoid and another as perfectly normal not the definition homophobia? But the thing is that was never the issue. She didn't want to see the film because it had gay people, not because she didn't want to see them having sex. It was their identity she didn't want to have to look at.

I think the mistake is that you're looking to TV to be a source of education rather than what it actually is, a source of entertainment.

This would be fine if it was actually the case. The thing is TV/film isn't 'just entertainment'. It reflects (or perhaps creates) the culture we live in. It decides 'what a gay person is like' 'what a teenage girl is like' 'what a man is like'. If TV and film were just entertainment, why does every college in the world have media studies courses?

bodice ripper

lookit, I assume the film in question here is Black Swan.

I wen to see it this evening. At various points, I was quite uncomfortable watching women that thin IN GENERAL, I would happily state that opinion in front of my mates - and will tbh.

so am I now a bigot?


now, again, I am not saying the girl in question isn't homophobic, all I was saying is that the comment alone is just not enough to base that opinion on. If the op has other info to base that on - then why would you suffer to be around her? I am not trying to attack here -I just mean that if one of my mates made a comment like that, I personally would be confident that it was not a homophobic comment because of what else I know about them as people.

Ambersky

I've been thinking and I can express what I am trying to say about liking or not liking sex scenes in film in a nutshell.

Its all around what people mean by like
If by like you mean pleasure as in
"I dont take pleasure in seeing lesbian or gay sex scenes on film"
I think fair enough there are a lot of things I dont take pleasure in, particularly sexual pleasure.

If by saying "I dont like" you actuall mean "I dislike" well thats a more active thing than the neutral like or not like.
Used in this way "I dont like" means "I dislike" that is an actively negative stance.

So as St Andalou pointed out in an earlier post in response to someone liking or disliking someting not making them a bigot

A bigot is a person obstinately or intolerantly devoted to his or her own opinions and prejudices, especially one exhibiting intolerance, and animosity toward those of differing beliefs. The predominant usage in modern English refers to persons hostile to those of differing race, ethnicity, nationality, sexual orientation, various mental disorders, or religion

It sounds to me that not liking seeing very thin women is a feeling of compassion for someones probable suffering.
Lets not confuse things by comparing this issue with liking or not liking inanimate objects or not liking to see the suffering of others.

Again recognising that someone, a friend, a relative, a person normally supportive of lesbians and gays, says something homophobic dosent make them a bad person. It doesnt make them out and out homophobic.
You in observing that this person has some homophobia within them dosent make you a bad person either.
Its ok to observe someone else having failings or room to grow.

Azure_sky

By that logic men who don't want to have sex with transsexuals are transphobic. People need to understand that just as we can't help what we find arousing, others can't help what they find offensive. It's just like food. It's a matter of taste some like marmite others don't.
The girl the OP mentioned was not being homophobic in anyway, she was just being honest. If she has expressed herself differently and referred to gays in derogatory terms, it could have been homophobic, but she didn't.

Ambersky

I was talking specifically about a person seeing or watching a sex scene in a film.
Talking about peoples actual sexual preferences when engaging in actual sex is another subject, they are not one and the same.
Actual Sex ----Watching a film. Not the same. Ones real life, ones a film. One you are actively engaged in, one you are suppose to be just sitting there, no active part or reflection on you.

Azure sky when you say

People need to understand that just as we can't help what we find arousing, others can't help what they find offensive

The opposite of aroused is not offended its, well I looked it up its

Main Entry: indifferent
Part of Speech: adjective
Definition: unfeeling, uninterested
Synonyms: aloof, apathetic, blasé, callous, cold, cool, detached, diffident, disinterested, dispassionate, distant, equitable, haughty, heartless, heedless, highbrow, impartial, impervious, inattentive, listless, neutral, nonchalant, nonpartisan, objective, passionless, phlegmatic, regardless, silent, stoical, supercilious, unaroused , unbiased, uncaring, uncommunicative, unconcerned, unemotional, unimpressed, uninvolved, unmoved, unprejudiced, unresponsive, unsocial, unsympathetic

If you are secure in your sexuality and do not feel a need to tell everyone that you were not aroused you can just let a LBBT sex scene go by.

People arent food, whats with all these food comparisons? People are not a matter of taste for our consumption or to be spat out.
We dont have a right to go around declaring our disgust, our offense, at watching people do what others are allowed to do without comment or judgement.

Azure_sky

Ambersky wrote: »

People arent food, whats with all this food comparisons? People are not a matter of taste for our consumption or to be spat out.
We dont have a right to go around declaring our disgust, our offense, at watching people do what others are allowed to do without comment or judgement.

No one said they are. However one may draw a fair analogy to our sexual appetites and our appetite for food. They both may produce positive and negative reactions. People can't control this.

Ambersky

What is a negative sexual reaction?

Azure_sky

Ambersky wrote: »

What is a negative sexual reaction?

Example:Someone talking about your parent having sex in graphic detail.

Ambersky

Very good Azure_sky, hey our board names are quite alike.

Thats a very good point and I would imagine you wouldnt want to see your parents having sex on film.
On the other hand I imagine you would also feel quite protective towards your parents and not want to have others say they found your parents disgusting.
The only way that could happen I suppose is if your parents were film stars and I have heard sons or daughters talking about that on television.
Sometimes they say they dont go to see the film, or close their eyes at that part, but I imagine they wouldnt like it if others were to protest at how disgusting their parents were.

I do take your point though that we dont find everything arousing and I am in agreement with you.
I feel protective towards my LGBT sisters and brothers.
I can see the social stigma they, we, have to work through.
I think the opposite of arousal is - usually- except in the case of your very fine point relatives,:), indifference.