sooty Turbo - chemical cleaner?

bladespin

Hi guys, the car's (Mondeo TDCI) has been throwing up an intermittent problem since the cold snap, under hard acceleration it goes into limp mode, this resets when the ignition is turned off, restarts and rund error free after.
I'm thinking it's the turbo overboosting, there's a Garrett VNT turbo on it and I think it may be sooted up and the vanes are sticking open causing the overboost.
I was ready to strip the turbo for a clean up, decided to do a bit of research on this (didn't want any nasty suprises) and found a few mentions of chemical cleaning with the turbos insitu (just disconnect the exhaust), there's a product from Innotec http://www.innotecworld.com/c-1064-turbo-clean-set.aspx I really like the sound of this but unfortunately due to some sort of haz mat legislation or something they won't ship here, there are mentions of others using oven cleaners and even BBQ cleaner (TDi boys, they're med). Just wondering if any of you had come across a similar product or could make recommendations.
Anyone done this themselves?

crosshair1

Go and have the codes read first.

bladespin

crosshair1 wrote: »

Go and have the codes read first.

I don't see how the codes will help me find a suitable cleaner.

I plan to clean the system anyway, hopefully it'll fix the problem but I'm sure it needs doing, the car has 124k miles on it.

crosshair1

Do you want to fix the problem or clean components?

I dont want to come across as being a smart arse but the symptoms you describe are also attributable to a much more common fault on this vehicle (and most other delphi tdcis) and by having the codes read would send you in the correct direction.

I have not personally used the product you describe but have read about it on some professional mechanics forums and it is considered 50/50 whether it will work or not.

bladespin

crosshair1 wrote: »

Do you want to fix the problem or clean components?

I dont want to come across as being a smart arse but the symptoms you describe are also attributable to a much more common fault on this vehicle (and most other delphi tdcis) and by having the codes read would send you in the correct direction.

I have not personally used the product you describe but have read about it on some professional mechanics forums and it is considered 50/50 whether it will work or not.

Sorry Crosshair1 but I want to clean the components, hence my original question.

But I'd happily take any advice that could solve the issue too (it only occurs now and then), it's not the cam sensor or the actuator, I tested them, any other possibles?

crosshair1

It will most likely be a fuel pressure problem, where there is insufficient pressure in the rail when demand is highest (under load/uphill).
You will need to confirm this with a scan though.

bladespin

crosshair1 wrote: »

It will most likely be a fuel pressure problem, where there is insufficient pressure in the rail when demand is highest (under load/uphill).
You will need to confirm this with a scan though.

A big thimbs up for that one, I'll get the reading done, is it an expensive fix?

shamwari

Ford issued a PCM recalibration for certain cars affected by an overboost fault which also puts the car into limp mode. The update alters the EGR valves operation which prevents the turbine blades from coking up over time, and results in them jamming in the max boost position.

The affected ones (from memory) were 1.8TDCi's in the Mondeo & SMax sold during a period spanning 2007 - 08

Hal1

Any EML light on or smokey at the back?

bladespin

It's a 2.0 TDCI 130 2003.

The coil light flashes, no smoke, runs perfectly otherwise, engine's smooth all the way through the revs.

shamwari

bladespin wrote: »

It's a 2.0 TDCI 130 2003.

The coil light flashes, no smoke, runs perfectly otherwise, engine's smooth all the way through the revs.

Needs a code scan so to see what the stored fault codes are. You can't change anything with any kind of certainty till this is done first.

bladespin

shamwari wrote: »

Needs a code scan so to see what the stored fault codes are. You can't change anything with any kind of certainty till this is done first.

Guys, I'm asking about a cleaner for the turbo, I want to decoke the EGR, inlet and possibly the turbo, I'm not the codes or scans or the fix, if the cleaning doesn't sort it I'll bring it to a mechanic.

bladespin

bladespin wrote: »

Guys, I'm asking about a cleaner for the turbo, I want to decoke the EGR, inlet and possibly the turbo, I'm not the codes or scans or the fix, if the cleaning doesn't sort it I'll bring it to a mechanic.

In fairness your car is going into limp mode and a light on the dash flashes. Folks in the know have given advice but you still are persisting with your clean the turbo theory.

"I think it may be sooted up and the vanes are sticking open causing the overboost." No way on earth is that the problem.

bladespin

RoverJames wrote: »

In fairness your car is going into limp mode and a light on the dash flashes. Folks in the know have given advice but you still are persisting with your clean the turbo theory.

"I think it may be sooted up and the vanes are sticking open causing the overboost." No way on earth is that the problem.

In fairness RJ, the post asks for advice on a cleaner, I mentioned the car went into limp a couple of times in the last 2 months, it's a minor issue I think might/might not be solved by the clean, my post had nothing to do with the limp mode, just the cleaner.

I must add, I did the clean up on an Alfa JTDm before and was amazed by the improvement, only thing was I ctook the turbo off to clean it, if I can leave it in place and squirt some cleaner in instead that would be a lot easier, I just wanted to know if anyone had experience of doing this.

bladespin

bladespin wrote: »

my post had nothing to do with the limp mode, just the cleaner.

In that case apologies
You might want to edit your post so as it's clear as mud :pac:

shamwari

bladespin wrote: »

Guys, I'm asking about a cleaner for the turbo, I want to decoke the EGR, inlet and possibly the turbo, I'm not the codes or scans or the fix, if the cleaning doesn't sort it I'll bring it to a mechanic.

If you really want to clean it then use nothing more than a really soft paint brush and sweep the coke out of it. As these are variable geometry turbo's, I wouldn't recommend doing anything other than that. If you knock any of the vanes out of line, you will be in big trouble.

If you are trying to improve your car's performance then I honestly think you would be better advised to get the car scanned for fault codes, and act on that before spring cleaning your turbo. If you have an emerging problem which you continue to ignore, you could well be making a problem far more difficult and expensive to fix.

The advice I and others are trying to offer you is to be helpful, not smart

bladespin

shamwari wrote: »

If you really want to clean it then use nothing more than a really soft paint brush and sweep the coke out of it. As these are variable geometry turbo's, I wouldn't recommend doing anything other than that. If you knock any of the vanes out of line, you will be in big trouble.

That's the way I done it last time, turbo off, stripped it and cleaned with a toothbrush and carb cleaner, was just wondering if the chemical stuff worked as it would be a lot easier.
The vanes are on a dial so they can't really be knocked out of line unless they were forced.

shamwari wrote: »

The advice I and others are trying to offer you is to be helpful, not smart

I appreciate both your and crosshair1's advice, I'll have the fault checked whenever it reoccurs (hopefully it won't), it just made me wonder about carbon build-up as the symptoms were exactly the same as I had with the Alfa before I cleaned it out, in that case it was a blocked EGR but I went through the whould system to be on the safe side.

galwaytt

bladespin wrote: »

...it just made me wonder about carbon build-up as the symptoms were exactly the same as I had with the Alfa before I cleaned it out, in that case it was a blocked EGR but I went through the whould system to be on the safe side.

...curious: just cleaned out the EGR on my Saab 9-3, which is the same as your Alfa. But I'm wondering, did you do anything downstream of the EGR - the head aperture on mine was well choked, so I cleaned as best I could, but I'm wondering what the rest is like...........what about the infamous 'swirl' flaps I hear about. DIY-able ??

On a general note: why are these diesels clogging so much ? Is it the driving style (low speed/commuting), or is there a diesel issue, or, shock: is it just that diesel's are 'just like that' anyway ? Seems a not-quite-sorted technology to me, if it is..........

bladespin

galwaytt wrote: »

...curious: just cleaned out the EGR on my Saab 9-3, which is the same as your Alfa. But I'm wondering, did you do anything downstream of the EGR - the head aperture on mine was well choked, so I cleaned as best I could, but I'm wondering what the rest is like...........what about the infamous 'swirl' flaps I hear about. DIY-able ??

On a general note: why are these diesels clogging so much ? Is it the driving style (low speed/commuting), or is there a diesel issue, or, shock: is it just that diesel's are 'just like that' anyway ? Seems a not-quite-sorted technology to me, if it is..........

Hi galwaytt, I removed the EGR, turbo and inlet and cleaned them out (light brush with some carb cleaner) I didn't mess about with anything I wasn't sure about, diesel was new to me (more of a bike man who wanted to have a go). The Alfa had 60k miles on it when I tackled it and was dirty but not what I'd have considered blocked, the EGR was sticking though which prompted me to do the clean up, the difference was considerable, it felt like performance was improved dramatically though I suspect it just went back to what the car should have been like to begin with, the Mondeo is nearing 125k and runs well, though on occasion seemed to hesitate around the 2k rev mark (like the Alfa did preclean), this too was where the limp light came on (thankfully it hasn't in a while), that's what got me wondering.

BTW I was told by more than one garage that the Alfa's EGR was f**ked and needed to be replaced, funny how less than an hour of elbow grease restored it :rolleyes:

As far as I can gather (mostly from reading through forum posts) it has a lot to do with driving style and diesel quality. From what I've read diesels need a good 'exercise' every tank of fuel or so to keep soot and gunk at bay, even then diesel by nature will eventually clog up and make the engine less efficient. I was defiantely guilty of driving the car in a manner likely to clog it, 2k revs in top everywhere, rarely touching higher revs (particularly in the 3 months of the freeze).

galwaytt

bladespin wrote: »

Hi galwaytt, I removed the EGR, turbo and inlet and cleaned them out (light brush with some carb cleaner) I didn't mess about with anything I wasn't sure about, diesel was new to me (more of a bike man who wanted to have a go). The Alfa had 60k miles on it when I tackled it and was dirty but not what I'd have considered blocked, the EGR was sticking though which prompted me to do the clean up, the difference was considerable, it felt like performance was improved dramatically though I suspect it just went back to what the car should have been like to begin with, the Mondeo is nearing 125k and runs well, though on occasion seemed to hesitate around the 2k rev mark (like the Alfa did preclean), this too was where the limp light came on (thankfully it hasn't in a while), that's what got me wondering.

BTW I was told by more than one garage that the Alfa's EGR was f**ked and needed to be replaced, funny how less than an hour of elbow grease restored it :rolleyes:

As far as I can gather (mostly from reading through forum posts) it has a lot to do with driving style and diesel quality. From what I've read diesels need a good 'exercise' every tank of fuel or so to keep soot and gunk at bay, even then diesel by nature will eventually clog up and make the engine less efficient. I was defiantely guilty of driving the car in a manner likely to clog it, 2k revs in top everywhere, rarely touching higher revs (particularly in the 3 months of the freeze).

Tks, I'm a bike man myself, and this diesel lark is becoming very wearing......I admire the technology, but you'd have to wonder at it's longevity........

I was speaking to a fleet mgr last year, with a lot of diesel cars, from Ford's to Renault's to Citroen's as well as VW's. The problems are common, he was telling me. More alarmingly is that frequency of issues was, shall we see, curiously geographically-linked.............for instance, the further north the vehicles, the more issues with pumps and injectors' etc, the further south, the fewer...........mmmmm, now what's going on with diesel on that basis I wonder........hmmmmm........