S61 water landings??

savagecabbages

Has an IRCG S-61 ever performed a water landing during a rescue?
They are an amphibious design, though i'm aware the practice of water landings has gone out of fashion recently... But what as a last resort, or if conditions were exceptionally calm??

I'm guessing there are several reasons for this, most obviously the danger of capsize or rotors hitting the water., and taking off again if the sea conditions worsened suddenly.

Are the S-61s being replaced as in the UK?
I'm interested to find out when they were first used in Ireland as they are absolutely synonymous with Irish SAR since long before I can remember;)

Did the Air Corps originally own a fleet of them, or did they just crew them before the CHC deal?

Klunk001

I will attemp to answer your questions.

As I understand it no IRCG helo has ever landed on water during a tasking.

The S-61 does indeed have an amphibious design. The pratice of water landings has decreased around the world, as in some cases it was leading to serious corrosion issues and expensive repairs. It also didn't help the electrics much either. The other issues you have mentioned.

Yes, if the plans for replacement go ahead you can expect to see S-92's carrying out SAR from next year with the first due in country late 4th quarter of this year I believe.

The S-61 first arrived here in the SAR role in the early 90's. It was operated by Irish Helicopters out of Shannon on contract to the dept of marine, I think.

The IAC operated what is now EI CXS out of Sligo under a military call sign. It was leased from CHC with IAC crew.

xflyer

Chatting to an SAR pilot in Sligo last year while I had a look around the Sikorsky. He confirmed it was possible to land the S61s on water still. If you have a look at photos of the helicopter you might see a zig zag set of lines on the lower hull. They are apparently there for survivors to hold onto should the helicopter ever have to touch down in the water.

He'd never made a water landing though.

Steyr

xflyer wrote: »

If you have a look at photos of the helicopter you might see a zig zag set of lines on the lower hull. They are apparently there for survivors to hold onto should the helicopter ever have to touch down in the water.

Ya thats rope well more like bungee type cord that survivors hold onto, she has a boat design hull.

Klunk001

Yes, the ropes on the side are more for survivors of the helo should it ditch and turn turtle, it also has a sea anchor up front on the P2's side. There are two hoists on each aircraft, if you are unlucky enough to have two hoist failures while pulling someone out of the water, well then your options are very limited indeed and it doesn't include landing on water.

These helo's have had various modifications over the years and the hulls are probably not as water tight as when manufactured. The bellies of these aircraft have various aerials, anti coll lights, homer, doppler, rad alts attached, you also have a FLIR and night sun the hang below the belly line . I don't think engineering would be too happy to see water dripping from all those dangally bits.:-)

Steyr

savagecabbages wrote: »

Did the Air Corps originally own a fleet of them, or did they just crew them before the CHC deal?

No they never owned a Fleet of Sikorsky S61N's they owned one S61N "257" C/N61816

She was based at Sligo on lease from CHC and still is there today but in IRCG Colours as EI-CXS "Rescue 118" today.

savagecabbages

Cheers that clears a lot up!

only the 1990s?? Thats much more recent than i would have thought. Was SAR performed exclusively by the Dauphins/Gazelles before that?

That anchor is interesting! what about propulsion in water have any amphibious helicopters been fitted with propulsion systems?

Steyr

savagecabbages wrote: »

Cheers that clears a lot up!

only the 1990s?? Thats much more recent than i would have thought. Was SAR performed exclusively by the Dauphins/Gazelles before that?

The Gazelle's never did anything remotely SAR wise, The SAR was carried out in Daytime by the Alouette3 and Dauphin fleet and at night by the Dauphin fleet 2 of which were Navalised to Operate off LE Eithne. The 2 Navalised versions could perform HIFR ( Helicopter In Flight Refuelling ) from LE Eithne.

The Gazelle's were Operated by No3 Ops Wing ( Previously Helicopter Squadron/BFTS/TW ) for Conversion and Helicopter Training and were replaced by the EC135P2.

They were extensively equipped with all the latest equipment for flying IFR Day/Night etc very state-of-the-art.

Gazelle 237 was wrote off in a crash near Baldonnel in 2002 due to engine failure with no injuries thankfully, and Gazelle 241 was WFU on December 31st 2005 and was sold to a private owner and re-registered as HA-LFQ and is still in the UK flying I believe.

Sterling Archer

Steyr wrote: »

The Gazelle's never did anything remotely SAR wise, The SAR was carried out in Daytime by the Alouette3 and Dauphin fleet and at night by the Dauphin fleet 2 of which were Navalised to Operate off LE Eithne. The 2 Navalised versions could perform HIFR ( Helicopter In Flight Refuelling ) from LE Eithne.

The Gazelle's were Operated by No3 Ops Wing and were replaced by the EC135P2.

Not to go off topic too much but thats is very interesting about the HIFR, such a pity tho last time i head LE Eithne had a container on it's helipad

On topic i'd imagine nowadays water landing is a very last resort, but i think is a very good feature and really the possibilities of manufacturing SAR aircraft with this feature should be examined, altho realistically it never will as most manufactures will just put pop out floats on.
But i would feel very comfortable being rescued by the IRCG knowing that should something catastrophic happen the aircraft could ditch, float and maintain it's position until (more) help arrived, on the S 91s are they fitted with pop outs?

Water propulsion would be tricky imo as it would have to be toward the aftof the aircraft causing issues with weight and cog, and would have to be pretty powerful to move a fully loaded S61 through water

Steyr

Shane_ef wrote: »

Not to go off topic too much but thats is very interesting about the HIFR, such a pity tho last time i head LE Eithne had a container on it's helipad

They performed HIFR in Galway Bay for the public once off LE Eithne, I think it was either our Airshow or a RNLI/IRCG Public show.

Klunk001

The S-61's and 92's are both fitted with pop out floats. The 61 can taxi on water just as on land using its own propulsion/thrust from the main rotor.

Heres a good reason for not landing on water.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2NiPbQVQrC4

jmayo

Steyr wrote: »

The Gazelle's never did anything remotely SAR wise, The SAR was carried out in Daytime by the Alouette3 and Dauphin fleet and at night by the Dauphin fleet 2 of which were Navalised to Operate off LE Eithne. The 2 Navalised versions could perform HIFR ( Helicopter In Flight Refuelling ) from LE Eithne.

The Gazelle's were Operated by No3 Ops Wing ( Previously Helicopter Squadron/BFTS/TW ) for Conversion and Helicopter Training and were replaced by the EC135P2.

They were extensively equipped with all the latest equipment for flying IFR Day/Night etc very state-of-the-art.

Gazelle 237 was wrote off in a crash near Baldonnel in 2002 due to engine failure with no injuries thankfully, and Gazelle 241 was WFU on December 31st 2005 and was sold to a private owner and re-registered as HA-LFQ and is still in the UK flying I believe.

You forgot to mention our reliance on the Brits and their Sea Kings.
I will also remember them having to do rescues off the west coast and refuel in Knock, because due to our IAC not having the equipment and narrowminded planning by the powers that be, we hadn't the capability to handle west coast rescues.
Thankfully times have changed.

Shane_ef wrote: »

Not to go off topic too much but thats is very interesting about the HIFR, such a pity tho last time i head LE Eithne had a container on it's helipad

On topic i'd imagine nowadays water landing is a very last resort, but i think is a very good feature and really the possibilities of manufacturing SAR aircraft with this feature should be examined, altho realistically it never will as most manufactures will just put pop out floats on.
But i would feel very comfortable being rescued by the IRCG knowing that should something catastrophic happen the aircraft could ditch, float and maintain it's position until (more) help arrived, on the S 91s are they fitted with pop outs?

Water propulsion would be tricky imo as it would have to be toward the aftof the aircraft causing issues with weight and cog, and would have to be pretty powerful to move a fully loaded S61 through water

As Klunk001 menaitoned I don't think the avionics would like the saltwater.
Also if you think about it, the sea conditions are usually terrible when they are often out and landing with 30 feet high waves breaking over the top of you would not be anyway desirable.

Steyr

jmayo wrote: »

You forgot to mention our reliance on the Brits and their Sea Kings.
I will also remember them having to do rescues off the west coast and refuel in Knock, because due to our IAC not having the equipment and narrowminded planning by the powers that be, we hadn't the capability to handle west coast rescues.
Thankfully times have changed.

Why would I have mentioned the RAF/RN when this was a question relating to the IAC?

jmayo

Steyr wrote: »

Why would I have mentioned the RAF/RN when this was a question relating to the IAC?

Did the OP not ask about Irish SAR ?
Sorry IMHO if you are to be discuss the history of Irish SAR (as in SAR ops carried out in Irish jurisdiction rather than only ops carried out by IAC) then you have at least mention the Brits contribution which was massive.

Also they have been using the Sea Kings which does tie into the whole thread.

Steyr

jmayo wrote: »

Did the OP not ask about Irish SAR ?

He did indeed. Not UK SAR. I did not realise he wanted a History lesson. But then again he did not he only wanted to know about about S61 Water Landings.

jmayo wrote: »

you have at least mention the Brits contribution which was massive.

Thats fair enough and I like anybody am thankful that they hepled out as anybody here who knows me knows I like the Brits very very much. But the point is the OP only was interested in S61 water landing capabilities and not the History of Irish/UK SAR. More so where possible I have corrected and educated the OP with regards to questions about the Gazelle's and IAC SAR Ops.


Here the OP says "Was SAR performed exclusively by the Dauphins/Gazelles before that?"

Now you can look at that as referencing the IAC/RAF/RN but I responded driectly to the question and Dauphins/Gazelles and corrected the OP as the Gazelles Never did any SAR.


The only reference in any way the OP gave to any sort of UK contribution in any small shape was to ask "Are the S-61s being replaced as in the UK?" and Klunk001 replied with that answer for the OP.

jmayo wrote: »

Also they have been using the Sea Kings which does tie into the whole thread.

The S61N is a civil variant of the SeaKing I will give you that.

shanman

I remember once one of the S61N's returning to Shannon was unable to lower the undercarriage and landed on the lake at Dromoland Castle - a good number of years ago

savagecabbages wrote: »

Has an IRCG S-61 ever performed a water landing during a rescue?
They are an amphibious design, though i'm aware the practice of water landings has gone out of fashion recently... But what as a last resort, or if conditions were exceptionally calm??

I'm guessing there are several reasons for this, most obviously the danger of capsize or rotors hitting the water., and taking off again if the sea conditions worsened suddenly.

Are the S-61s being replaced as in the UK?
I'm interested to find out when they were first used in Ireland as they are absolutely synonymous with Irish SAR since long before I can remember;)

Did the Air Corps originally own a fleet of them, or did they just crew them before the CHC deal?

Steyr

shanman wrote: »

I remember once one of the S61N's returning to Shannon was unable to lower the undercarriage and landed on the lake at Dromoland Castle - a good number of years ago

EI-BHO Perhaps?

Klunk001

Heres a link to the canadians practicing one engine inop in the hover and rejecting landings onto water.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mVixr8lDz-M

Blue Punto

Don't forget IAC 242 that was around for a year or two



For those oldies among us:D

Jesus Nut

Now, what about the S-92! Has that taken a Dip?