Cork divers discover WWI U-boat

marcsignal

Saw this on the news today, thought you guys might be interested

Divers have described their discovery of a WWI German U-boat that historians believe was destroyed in 1917.

All 27 crew on board the UC42 died when the submarine sank at the entrance to Cork Harbour on 10 September 1917.

It had been laying mines when an explosion was heard.

A team of five amateur divers from Cork discovered the submarine in good condition in 27m of water just off Roches Point on 6 November after a 12-month search.

Diver Ian Kelleher said they were very surprised and ecstatic to find it with little obvious explosive damage.

Positive identification was possible when they found its number stamped on a propeller.

Mr Kelleher, a chemistry student, said that two days before Christmas, the dive team laid a plaque of remembrance near the propellers as a memorial to the 27 German submariners who died.

They plan to return to the site over the coming weeks and continue their research into the submarine and its crew, including trying to contact relatives of the crew.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2011/0124/cork.html

http://story.irishsun.com/index.php/ct/9/cid/aba4168066a10b8d/id/42303961/

http://www.theirishworld.com/article.asp?SubSection_Id=2&Article_Id=17391

http://www.mariner.ie/history/articles/war/wwi-west-cork

Holybejaysus

I was just going to post this! A nice find indeed, the sub appears to be in very good condition. I wonder would there be any point in salvaging it for a museum piece?

drunkmonkey

If wiki is to believed the u boat sank in september but the Brits didn't find it until October and there divers went down and recovered some items which were taken to wexford at the time.

What I'm getting at is how did they find it if it wasn't lost the British already had divers there so it's where abouts must have been known?

gbee

Was one of those divers rescued a couple of months back after he got lost and his location was reported by a regular cargo ship?

R117 tasked and picked up by Crosshaven LB. I must look it up, I'm sure it made the R117 TV show ~ but that's much more than a few months ago!

arnhem44

Here's another article on it

http://www.afloat.ie/watersport/diving/item/14853-german-u-boat-rediscovered-in-cork-harbour/

refusetolose

why were they laying mines in cork harbour?

gbee

refusetolose wrote: »

why were they laying mines in cork harbour?

We were a British Navy base. We still have our own navy based here.

FiSe

Holybejaysus wrote: »

I was just going to post this! A nice find indeed, the sub appears to be in very good condition. I wonder would there be any point in salvaging it for a museum piece?

That would be nice...but:
- they have mentioned something about the 'memorial to the crew still on patrol' formula, alas don't disturb the dead
- I, personally, doubt very much that somebody will come forward with the dosh needed for:
a/ recovering the sub
b/ pay someone to do the research of the sub and crew members remains / recovery of body remains, transport, permission for re-burial - I presume Glencree - and godonlyknows what has to be done in cases like these/
c/ conservation of the recovered sub
and most importantly
d/ building a place where this submarine could actually be stored/displayed as there's nothing of this kind in Ireland

Nice and interesting find, BTW and well done to all involved

arnhem44

This would be deemed as a war grave and will never be touched,lets not forget all the other mariners and sub mariners that were all lost around our coast,for the most they were never recovered.It would be a huge disrespect to even consider raising her now in my opinion.

xflyer

drunkmonkey wrote: »

What I'm getting at is how did they find it if it wasn't lost the British already had divers there so it's where abouts must have been known?

That was back in 1917. Unless the British had left detailed records it would be very hard to find again. Plus as stated people believed the RN destroyed it later.

gbee

xflyer wrote: »

That was back in 1917. Unless the British had left detailed records it would be very hard to find again. Plus as stated people believed the RN destroyed it later.

Yes, the area was known according to this morning's 96FM interview. It was known for a long time but exactly and precisely was not.

Yes the Royal Navy depth charged, swept and dived on the sub so nothing was thought to have survived. Which makes it a more spectacular find indeed.

Apparently the US Navy also had a base in the harbour and a base in Ballycotton, the site of another sinking. And UC42 was strategically mining to catch both. Mine would be attached to the sea bed and after a few hours would rise to the length of their chains, it is understood that a mine released itself immediately and struck the sub exploding. Other incidence of this happening have been documented so that's the best theory, otherwise it's speculation.

A great find and in fact after it's discovery, only last weekend the team had difficulty in fining it again, as subs are stealthy, sitting on the bottom even moreso.

arnhem44

This article shows a photo of UC 42 and U.S divers that dived to the wreck to disarm some of the mines,it also lists the the names of the crew.

http://www.iol.ie/~mkeniry/ccuc42.htm

Run_to_da_hills

The Germans now know about the news.

http://wiadomosci.onet.pl/regionalne/irlandia/odnaleziono-zaginionego-niemieckiego-u-boota,1,4154279,region-wiadomosc.html

o1s1n

arnhem44 wrote: »

This would be deemed as a war grave and will never be touched,lets not forget all the other mariners and sub mariners that were all lost around our coast,for the most they were never recovered.It would be a huge disrespect to even consider raising her now in my opinion.

I never understood this. Fair enough if they died a couple of years ago and their deaths were still fresh in memory..but we're talking about almost 100 years. It should be treated like any other archeological site, explored and documented before it deteriorate to the point where it's a load of rubble. People go on the same way about the Titanic. Where do we draw the line?

'Sorry, I know you've traveled all the way to Egypt, but you'll have to leave the pyramid now. We've just realized it's a huge disrespect to be in here'

It's terribly superstitious.

Anyway, great find! I'd love to see some better photos or even video.

FiSe

^ Yep, that would be my opinion too. I do go and visit Normandy, Berlin or how many people visited one of the concentration camps.
There are war graves found on regular basis all over the Europe and as far as I know, the remains are being reburied, after identification attempt, on whichever cemetery - Comonwealth, German, Russian...
Ofcourse if that's an official and above the board find, that is.

arnhem44

o1s1n wrote: »

I never understood this. Fair enough if they died a couple of years ago and their deaths were still fresh in memory..but we're talking about almost 100 years. It should be treated like any other archeological site, explored and documented before it deteriorate to the point where it's a load of rubble. People go on the same way about the Titanic. Where do we draw the line?

'Sorry, I know you've traveled all the way to Egypt, but you'll have to leave the pyramid now. We've just realized it's a huge disrespect to be in here'

It's terribly superstitious.

Anyway, great find! I'd love to see some better photos or even video.

War graves at sea are recognised all over the world by governments and veterans alike.The trouble is that very few vessels are protected under law.The recovery of dead from such vessels would be astronomical for any organisation to undertake.On an archaeological view this wreck will most likely be examined and documented but plundering of such wrecks will become common place once a location becomes known by a minority of people.There are many examples of this happening in the past in British waters as this article explains http://www.independent.co.uk/environment/divers-raid-seabed-war-graves-for-trinkets-737906.html .As for the reburial of remains found on battlefields,then that's a different scenario,for the vast majority of remains that are found are found due to urban development or expansion,farming and at times from archaeological digs and so on.The official search for WW1 war dead ended a long time ago but the remains are re-interred if found based on the situation that arises.

Dr Strange

These wars are within living memory of people and families may still exist who are looking for their loved ones or who are at least aware of the missing in their family. So therefore no, this is not archaeology as such and it should be treated as a War Grave with the respect that goes with it.

I would fight tooth and nail any attempt to salvage this just so people can have a look at the technology. It's not as if there are no examples of different U-Boats and also blueprints available so we do know how these types of boats looked like etc.

Also, the German War Graves Commission is looking into this at the moment so we all have to wait and see what will happen.

Riamfada

Okay well firstly there are shipwrecks all around the Irish coast and I dont see why this would be any different. Surly it will be added to the Shipwrecks database and protected under Irish heritage legislation.

I think the calls for this to be salvaged ect are simply due to the fact that we have very little war archaeology in this country which adds to the mystique and excitement over the find.

To be honest the only people going out there will be established scuba divers who are generally very respectful of underwater artefacts & wrecks so Id say leave it where it is. It would be nice to have the underwater archaeological unit survey it but I dont see it happening with current funding, at least not anytime in the near future.

Just to get my 2c in on wether or not this is an archaeological artefact, it most surely is. Considering our rising took place 2 years after this went down almost 100 years ago and we display rebellion artefacts in our museums, I dont see why this would be any different. Its an archaeological site and should therefore be preserved as much as possible unless completley necessary which is the Irish legal stance.

This comes from an archaeology & a military mod & an avid scuba diver so you can imagine Im chomping at the bit to get a dive

Dr Strange

I disagree on one point. I do not see the remains of these soldiers/sailors as "archaeological". However, I will await the finding of the German War Graves Commission and see what their next step is. I would like to see this grave fully protected, if not under Irish legislation then under European legislation.

We'll see what happens but I have very strong feelings on this issue.

marcsignal

Someone posted this in the vids section of After Hours

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yhJAzLH4_kU

.

FiSe

Preusse wrote: »

I disagree on one point. I do not see the remains of these soldiers/sailors as "archaeological". However, I will await the finding of the German War Graves Commission and see what their next step is. I would like to see this grave fully protected, if not under Irish legislation then under European legislation.

We'll see what happens but I have very strong feelings on this issue.

I think that the issue is with the point of view. As I said I have no issues with raising the wreck /or any warship, u-boot, aircraft, armour and so on wreck/ with the crew still inside. As long as every effort is made to name the crew remains and bury them on official burrial ground. That's why I mentioned Glencree, which is the official 'Volksbund' site in Ireland.

I as well mentioned that there are wrecks of armour and aircraft - and single or mass graves - discovered on regular basis from WWII. If you look at some of the finds you can see that in many cases there is a pilot or crew remains still in the machine. The crew is burried and the machines or the parts of those are preserved for future generations.

I think, that the issue of relatives mourning their missing person are better off, than relatives who can actually visit a grave of their no longer missing family member, is very personal matter and relatives themselves could only say what their prefferences are.

Another issue is the crewmembers themselves. I know a WWII sailor who's wish is to be burried on the sea. But he survived the war. I wonder if those submarine boys were happy to know that they will never leave their underwater trap?

Anyway, we are living in a country with official denial and general ignorance of both the world wars and as a such, no matter what we say or what we feel, there is no way that this sub will be salvaged and preserved - not in Ireland.

the_syco

In the video, I see shell cases, and a propeller: both of which will be taken. From the Independent article it seems explosive will be used to get at the parts. I doubt that the corpses of the dead sailors who will have their tomb ransacked will be given any courtesy, and their remains may be destroyed beyond recognition by the explosives. But who cares; someone will be able to profit with the trinkets and scrap taken from the sub.

It is robbing someones grave. It would also be terrible should a mine go off when someone was grave-robbing...

FiSe

I think, the Indo article was referring to the attempts of the RN/USN of 1918? Apparently the mines were removed and then the wreck 'destroyed' using explosives and metal 'brush' to spread the lot on the sea bed.

Nevertheless, souvenir hunters will have their paradise downthere. Can't wait to see the stuff on ebay.

the_syco

FiSe wrote: »

I think, the Indo article was referring to the attempts of the RN/USN of 1918? Apparently the mines were removed and then the wreck 'destroyed' using explosives and metal 'brush' to spread the lot on the sea bed.

When I talked about "explosive will be used to get at the parts", I was referring to:

The example of UC75 , sunk off Flamborough Head, Humberside, shows that some rogue divers completely disregard even this interpretation of the rules.

The boat originally contained the remains of 20 German sailors, but it was blown apart after news leaked of the location of its undisturbed final site. Salvors attacked it with gelignite and removed the propeller, torpedo tubes and deck gun, reportedly to sell as scrap.

FiSe

I see, haven't seen that one.

PatsytheNazi

Is there any truth in the rumour I once heard that the odd U Boat during WW2 sent guys into Donegal or any part of the country to buy supplies such as chickens, eggs, vegetables etc ?

FiSe

..as far as I know, there was only one broad light visit of the U-Boot to the Irish shores - Ventry Bay:

'The bay or harbour is a suitable anchorage for sailing and fishing boats. On 4 October 1939, German U-Boat U-35 entered Ventry Bay and landed 28 Greek sailors of the MV Diamantis. Their ship had been torpedoed by the U-boat. The event was commemorated with a plaque in October 2009. Guests included the German Ambassador Dr. Busso von Alvensleben and the Mayor of the Oinousses Islands in the Aegean, Evangelos Elias Angelakos who unveiled the memorial stone[1] and members of London's Greek shipping community.' from Wikipedia

and here:

http://www.u-35.com/synopsis.htm

Dr Strange

Now what I feared has really happened.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2011/0530/1224298058685.html

Irisht Times wrote:

Gardaí investigate looting of U-boat site

ÉIBHIR MULQUEEN

GARDAÍ IN Cork have begun an investigation into the illegal removal of artefacts, including sailors’ attire, from a first World War submarine and war grave recently discovered by divers in 27 metres of water off Roches Point.

The 49-metre, 400-ton German vessel UC-42, which sank in 1917 during a mine-laying operation, also appears to have been damaged by salvagers attempting to remove one of its propellers.

The Garda National Bureau of Criminal Investigation’s antiquities unit was alerted by the Department of Arts, Heritage and the Gaeltacht’s underwater archaeology unit. Also involved are the Customs maritime unit, the National Museum of Ireland and, now, locally-based gardaí.

Connie Kelleher, of the underwater archaeology unit, said she had received several reports from divers about the desecration of the site through removal of crew members’ effects.

“Included in these reports to us, from concerned divers who do not agree with the pillaging of the site, are details of human remains being evident on the wreck site,” she said.

“To date, we have received reports of the structure being recently damaged by divers attempting to remove parts of it; of items that belonged to the crew being taken off the site; and that one of the propellers was being made ready to be recovered, as evidenced by recent work to it.”

She added that she and other divers with her unit intended to dive on the site to assess it as soon as weather permitted.

She has alerted the Irish Underwater Council (IUC), the main representative body of diving clubs in Ireland, seeking its assistance in raising awareness of the problem and said she had also contacted the Naval Service.

Martin Kiely, the IUC’s national diving officer, said the council’s code of conduct forbade members from interfering with wrecks or sea life and required them to respect all dive sites. “We would take a very dim view of people taking stuff from wrecks,” he said.

Ms Kelleher said the German embassy had indicated its “legitimate interest” in the wreck’s protection and preservation.

“The site has a particular sensitivity due to it being a relatively recent German naval loss with crew who are known by name, many of whom are likely to have close living relatives,” she said.

She added the removal of material from UC-42, if not reported to the Receiver of Wreck in Cork, was an offence under the Merchant Shipping (Salvage and Wreck) Act 1993 and that as well as protection under merchant shipping legislation, any artefacts fall within the definition of archaeological objects in the National Monuments Acts 1930 to 2004.

Ms Kelleher added that UC-42 was of particular significance as part of both Ireland and Germany’s maritime history and that a ministerial underwater heritage order may be placed on it, as with the RMS Lusitania , to restrict access and give it the protection of the National Monuments Acts.

“We will probably have to go that route to protect it,” she said. The site was “first and foremost” a war grave, where as many as 27 sailors drowned when it sank in September 1917.

It was one of 64 vessels built in its class, regarded as the first mass-produced German U-boats, which carried as many as 18 mines.