Water, water everywhere

The_Architect

How important do you consider water features on inland courses?

What are your favourite inland courses with no (or little) water and what courses with an abundance of water hazards do you not rate?

Thanks for any input.

meath4sam

i consider water very important always look forward to a hole with water surounding a green , rathcore has water on most holes and is very enjoyable.one thing that annoys me is when u see a lake or stream on a course not being used example behind a tee box or 60 yards left or right of the green.

ThunderCat

One of my favourite inland courses with little water is Howth. It's a James Braid design and it has some fabulous green sites. And the views over Dublin are teriffic too. I find that water features are over-used on a lot of courses and is done a death for the sake of it sometimes. It can be too penal also. At least if you go in rough, no matter how thick it is you can at least have a go at getting it out. Same if your ball plugs in sand or if it finds the base of a tree. They are all hazards but you have a chance of getting the ball back in play should you posses the skill to do so. With water you don't have that opportunity.

Now I'm going to go against everything i've just said, because Headfort new is my favourite inland course and it has water on most holes. :pac:

thewobbler

Water makes for memorable holes - even when it doesn't really come into play. The backdrop of Lough Muckno on Concra Wood's third is amazing, while how it comes into play on the 4th is brilliant design.

I'm a massive fan of Headfort New, particularly the simple ravine in front of 3, and the 11th, which has water every inch of the way down the right.

Dundalk is a fine old style parkland course, but its 7th hole is the signature because of the water feature, and by far the most memorable.

You don't need water; Belvoir Park is the perfect example of a parkland course that thrives as parkland only. Rathsallagh is a strange mix in that it's better holes are the dry ones. But generally speaking, water adds wow.

hades

I love a bit of water on some holes, but being a duffer i'm always very nervous. One such moment was playing the 17th in Fota, par 3, all over water and for me a solid 5 wood. But when i stuck it to the green i was delighted.

O Mahoneys Point in Killarney also has some lovely water holes, the final 3 if i recall are great, especially the way it frames the mountains and lakes coming down the dip into the par 5, 16th.

But as i say, i haven't played too many courses to comment.

PhilipMarlowe

I think you pretty much have to have water on an inland course to make it 'thrilling'.
I personally like when water looks natural, like a creek or a simple ditch leading into a pond. When greens are set up against the waters edge with a 'manufactured' wall or something it tends to look more dramatic but in general I'm not as much a fan as when the water and green blend together - eg. the 13th & the 3rd at Mount Juliet have greens that require a carry over water and a wall defines the edge. It's obviously dramatic and exciting but I still prefer the more 'natural' feel of something like the approach to the 18th at the same course.

In really famous terms, Augusta 11th is a perfect use in my opinion. Water beside the green, room to be chicken on the other side that leaves a difficult 3rd towards the water.
A short or medium par 3 can be transformed with some water... again, I'd take the 12th at Augusta over the 17th at Sawgrass every time though you have to admit that Sawgrass is thrilling.
The 13th at Augusta is my favourite use of water I think... little creek on the left side of the hole, wanders in front of the green at an angle. The angle is key to me - it's not a precise distance to carry the hazard... you may hit enough club to carry it but not on that line! The 4th at Gowran Park has a hazard at an angle like this and in my opinion it's a great use. A sucker pin will draw you in because it may only be 5 or 6 yards from trouble and even if you miss the hazard not on the green-side, you have one of those fear-inducing short pitches over the hazard to a tight pin. It's a fair use of water as a hazard that allows for a 'safe' alternative.

In saying all that, in general my favourite holes don't necessarily include water but will need something else to excite. 10th on Sunningdale Old for example.. the elevated tee, heather, perfect bunkering and relatively mature pine trees all help
On my home course of Gowran Park, the 15th is my favourite. Straight, flat, 390 yard par 4 with no water & no bunkers. The 100+ft. high Beech trees have a lot on influence on the drama though.

IMO, water on somewhere between 4-9 holes is about right. Sometimes from the tee, sometimes at the green-side and both together a couple of times. No fountains thanks.

The_Architect

Well thought out post Licksy.

Although I might take you to task on this bit:

Licksy wrote: »

I think you pretty much have to have water on an inland course to make it 'thrilling'.

You mention Sunningdale. Almost all the best inland courses in the UK have little or no water involved. Many of the classic parklands in the US also. I'd call all of these courses 'thrilling'.

dvemail

I dont think it is necessary. It can look good or bad, depends how it fits into the course.
Like the par 3 16th in Adare played over water is a pretty daunting tee shot. Plus it looks like a relatively natural water hazard.
Unlike say a course that decides to put a water fountain beside a green, which just looks like muck and it can really cheapen a course imo.

PhilipMarlowe

It's not an easy thing to argue. When I think of holes or courses with water they tend to be 'modern' in general and the courses without or with less water are 'old'.
I love tree-lined more than water... I want proper big beech and oaks and pines though, not crappy ornamentals and fast-growing conifers that 'belong' in a suburban garden.
I'm sure that a lot of the classic courses you speak of (like Sunningdale) have a combination of fantastic turf, classic design and a mature setting with 100+ year old trees etc. Are there modern inland courses that are thrilling without water and without the advantage of a mature setting? Water can certainly add an instant thrill to a course that doesn't have the benefit of being around for a century.

I'd love to play some of the US courses with huge oak trees or like Valderama with those cork-oaks but unfortunately my experience of them is limited to TV viewing so far... still hopeful though.

One thing you have to admit is the psychological effect that water has on a golfer... On the par 3 9th at Gowran with water front-left, I hit a disproportionate amount of bad 7 irons short and left into the water If that was just a bunker I doubt I'd be in it nearly as often.

The_Architect

Licksy wrote: »

I love tree-lined more than water... I want proper big beech and oaks and pines though, not crappy ornamentals and fast-growing conifers that 'belong' in a suburban garden.
I'm sure that a lot of the classic courses you speak of (like Sunningdale) have a combination of fantastic turf, classic design and a mature setting with 100+ year old trees etc. Are there modern inland courses that are thrilling without water and without the advantage of a mature setting?

True that most of the courses I refer to are old but modern design can be classic also. The site needs to be right though.

I'll disagree with you regarding trees. Sunningdale and many of the big inland courses in the UK and US are actually clearing their trees, either to promote the regeneration of heather or to reinstall the scale and playability of the site. Most of these courses were open when first designed.

That said, old individual trees can look wonderful if they don't crowd out the course.

Licksy wrote: »

One thing you have to admit is the psychological effect that water has on a golfer...

Without a doubt there is a psychological effect. If used sparingly, it's a great hazard.

charlieIRL

Anyone ever play Glasson in Athlone? Right beside the lake and has a few holes with water, the par 3 15th especially - it has a kind of island green. Excellent & tough hole.

Esker Hills has some water as well, 5th (par 3) green is nearly surrounded with water bit is a large green and easily hit. Water on a few middle holes of the course as well.

Hodson Bay has some water as well but if you are straight off the tee its easily missed. They havent made any feature of it which is a shame.

conno16

Elm Green usually has water features for the period Oct - Apr
always amazes me why they put them away for the summer months

downthemiddle

conno16 wrote: »

Elm Green usually has water features for the period Oct - Apr
always amazes me why they put them away for the summer months

After many failed attempts finally a witty post from Mr Connolly :eek:

AldilaMan

If it's water you like - Hollywood Lakes - water in play on 11 holes with about 14 lakes in total !