how long to leave a cow before giving assistance calving?

ellewood

hi i had a cow calf this morning put the blister out fine and was arsing around for ages i handeled her and the calves legs were down so sorted this and left her for another while she still wasnt making any progress an hour later so got the jack and she calved fine but calf dead i had neighbour give me a hand (he calves 120 cows a year) he said giving assistance too early is the worst thing for cow and calf

so question is how long do you give a cow not making progress a hand to calf

was a really smashing hfr calf out of ada and hermes cow

reilig

ellewood wrote: »

hi i had a cow calf this morning put the blister out fine and was arsing around for ages i handeled her and the calves legs were down so sorted this and left her for another while she still wasnt making any progress an hour later so got the jack and she calved fine but calf dead i had neighbour give me a hand (he calves 120 cows a year) he said giving assistance too early is the worst thing for cow and calf

so question is how long do you give a cow not making progress a hand to calf

was a really smashing hfr calf out of ada and hermes cow

The handling to lift the legs could be what killed the calf. I'd normally leave a cow for up to 2 hours after the first bag, feet should appear within an hour and let her work away herself. If after thye second hour there is no progress, then its time to start assisting.

sh1tstirrer

Usually 2-3 hours for a cow and an hour for a heifer. Whats ada and hermes cow?

dar31

2 hrs from bursting the blob if presenting ok.
i ve a problem with calves dropping dead, usually a squirt of iodine under the flank once a week makes a big difference, for a fortnight pre calving

Bizzum

Usually as long as I can see some progress I'm happy, but it can be a fine line as to when a cow is progressing and when she has hit a wall so to speak.
With a cow I'd know, from the first waterbag out, I'd like to have the calf on the ground after 2 hours.
But I'v seen cows pissing around for for several hours and doing nothing.
I think if I form the opinion that the cow isn't trying too hard I and it's going on too long, I go looking for the calf.
Sicken your stomach to lose a well bred pedigree heifer calf like that. It happens us all though.

ellewood

reilig wrote: »

The handling to lift the legs could be what killed the calf. I'd normally leave a cow for up to 2 hours after the first bag, feet should appear within an hour and let her work away herself. If after thye second hour there is no progress, then its time to start assisting.

id doubt it the legs were only barley down it only took 2 mins to lift them up and straighten them but then again it may only take someting small to do it

she was about 3-4 hours between blister and calving but cow seemed lazy she would never have calved herself and for such a big cow she shouldnt have had any bother.

leg wax

ellewood wrote: »

hi i had a cow calf this morning put the blister out fine and was arsing around for ages i handeled her and the calves legs were down so sorted this and left her for another while she still wasnt making any progress an hour later so got the jack and she calved fine but calf dead i had neighbour give me a hand (he calves 120 cows a year) he said giving assistance too early is the worst thing for cow and calf

so question is how long do you give a cow not making progress a hand to calf

was a really smashing hfr calf out of ada and hermes cow

if that was my cow an there was no movement after a hour i would handle her and if the legs were down , take them up and calf out then.it would never have crossed my mind to let her at it for another hour.just saw your post 3-4 hours at it way to long on my farm ,i feel the big craze of letting them at on their own costs with the death of a lot of calves compared with the costs of intervening to early.

whelan1

dar31 wrote: »

2 hrs from bursting the blob if presenting ok.
i ve a problem with calves dropping dead, usually a squirt of iodine under the flank once a week makes a big difference, for a fortnight pre calving

we started putting 1cc/cow/day of aqueous iodine in the dry cow drinker since my mineral fiasco a few weeks ago , i assume this is the same as spraying it on their flank?

Bizzum

ellewood wrote: »

cow seemed lazy she would never have calved herself and for such a big cow she shouldnt have had any bother.

I get this sometimes, laziness from big cows that should calve anything, I don't know why? Does anyone?
Could it be nutritional? Is it calcium related even though its a suckler cow?

For me 3 to 4 hours seems a lot. I would in this case lift the legs and let her at it for an while to see could I see progress. If no progress after say an hour, I'd be going in! How does this cow normally calve?

ellewood

leg wax wrote: »

if that was my cow an there was no movement after a hour i would handle her and if the legs were down , take them up and calf out then.it would never have crossed my mind to let her at it for another hour.just saw your post 3-4 hours at it way to long on my farm ,i feel the big craze of letting them at on their own costs with the death of a lot of calves compared with the costs of intervening to early.

well thats what im asking is how long max should they be left??

in the last 4 years ive only calved 50 and all either calved on their own or un assisted even 2 sets of twins so a cow calving but not progressing was new to me so i was going on more experianced advice to give her time to open and calf herself

ellewood

Bizzum wrote: »

I get this sometimes, laziness from big cows that should calve anything, I don't know why? Does anyone?
Could it be nutritional? Is it calcium related even though its a suckler cow?

For me 3 to 4 hours seems a lot. I would in this case lift the legs and let her at it for an while to see could I see progress. If no progress after say an hour, I'd be going in! How does this cow normally calve?

last 2 years she calved totally un aided on her own and calved 2 big bull calves

Bizzum

ellewood wrote: »

last 2 years she calved totally un aided on her own and calved 2 big bull calves

With this being the case, you would have to think the legs down were the problem. When you say she was arseing around for ages before you handled her, how long would you be talking about?

LostCovey

reilig wrote: »

The handling to lift the legs could be what killed the calf.

I completely disagree, and suspect it is actually the complete reverse - that the calf's legs did not come up into line because the calf was already weak/dying/dead. Moving his legs didn't kill him. In any case if they were down, what choice did the OP have????????

What age was the cow? If over 8 watch out for milk fever in the next few days

Cows getting milk fever often don't get on with business because they are getting weaker, then the calf dies when the cleanings come away.

It might not be relevant here if she's a young cow, but if she is an old doll, watch her like a hawk.

LC

ellewood

LostCovey wrote: »

I completely disagree, and suspect it is actually the complete reverse - that the calf's legs did not come up into line because the calf was already weak/dying/dead. Moving his legs didn't kill him. In any case if they were down, what choice did the OP have????????

What age was the cow? If over 8 watch out for milk fever in the next few days

Cows getting milk fever often don't get on with business because they are getting weaker, then the calf dies when the cleanings come away.

It might not be relevant here if she's a young cow, but if she is an old doll, watch her like a hawk.


LC

yea thanks, ill defo do that cause she is actually 9 years old!!

pakalasa

Here's a good article on calving cows;
http://www.cvmbs.colostate.edu/ilm/proinfo/calving/notes/abnormalcalving.htm

Useful tips on how to take out a calf caught at the shoulders or hips. How to rotate them and all that. Tips too, to check that it is the front legs that are coming, and not one front and one back etc.

Would agree that it's better to take the calf as soon as possible, if you realise the legs are down. Sickener to loose one I know, but happens to everyone.

Here's the link to the recommended times for intervention etc;
http://www.cvmbs.colostate.edu/ilm/proinfo/calving/notes/whentocallforhelp.htm

Full Table of Contents here;
http://www.cvmbs.colostate.edu/ilm/proinfo/calving/notes/table.htm

whelan1

also if the fluid that is coming is brown it is a sign that the calf is in distress and you should hurry about the delivery

ellewood

Bizzum wrote: »

With this being the case, you would have to think the legs down were the problem. When you say she was arseing around for ages before you handled her, how long would you be talking about?

about an hour after she started forcing and very little happening like i said shes always calved un aided so i taught leaving her to her self was the best approach but leaving her for another hour or so after sorting out the legs may have been the problem but she wasnt trying too hard to calf wasnt in any difficulty so i taught time was all she wanted and thats what my neighbour taught as well

Bizzum

Hopefully she'll be lucky the next time.
You'd like a heifer out of a Hermes cow, seeing as he can't easily be got now!

reilig

ellewood wrote: »

id doubt it the legs were only barley down it only took 2 mins to lift them up and straighten them but then again it may only take someting small to do it

she was about 3-4 hours between blister and calving but cow seemed lazy she would never have calved herself and for such a big cow she shouldnt have had any bother.

I didn't mean that lifting the legs were what killed the calf, but maybe you burst or damaged the veil around the calf which could lead to the calf dying. As leg wax said, I would get the calf out as fast as I could after having to lift the feet.

pajero12

reilig wrote: »

I didn't mean that lifting the legs were what killed the calf, but maybe you burst or damaged the veil around the calf which could lead to the calf dying. As leg wax said, I would get the calf out as fast as I could after having to lift the feet.

How would this kill the calf?

dar31

whelan1 wrote: »

also if the fluid that is coming is brown it is a sign that the calf is in distress and you should hurry about the delivery

always a bad sign.

also a bottle of calcium to a lazy calver will speed her up.(she might possibly have sub clinical milk fever)
learned recently that if you give a cow a bottle of calcium for milk fever it should be followed up with in 24hrs with a second, or she will be in a worst state

reilig

pajero12 wrote: »

How would this kill the calf?

If you burst or damage the veil/bag/placenta that covers the calf in the cows womb and birt canal in order to get a hand around the feet in order to lift them up then you have damaged the calf's protection in the birth canal. If you leave the calf in the birth canal for a long period of time after taking away its protection, then he is at risk. That's the way that I understand it anyway. Could be wrong, I'm not a vet, but I know that my vet would recommend to get the calf out asap after breaking the veil.

dar31

reilig wrote: »

If you burst or damage the veil/bag/placenta that covers the calf in the cows womb and birt canal in order to get a hand around the feet in order to lift them up then you have damaged the calf's protection in the birth canal. If you leave the calf in the birth canal for a long period of time after taking away its protection, then he is at risk. That's the way that I understand it anyway. Could be wrong, I'm not a vet, but I know that my vet would recommend to get the calf out asap after breaking the veil.

i will always burst the blob if i can get any way near it,

edit: when it is out. definitely dont do it if it is still in the cow if that is what you mean

vanderbadger

ellewood wrote: »

hi i had a cow calf this morning put the blister out fine and was arsing around for ages i handeled her and the calves legs were down so sorted this and left her for another while she still wasnt making any progress an hour later so got the jack and she calved fine but calf dead i had neighbour give me a hand (he calves 120 cows a year) he said giving assistance too early is the worst thing for cow and calf

so question is how long do you give a cow not making progress a hand to calf

was a really smashing hfr calf out of ada and hermes cow

http://www.amazon.com/Calving-Care-Calf-Eddie-Straiton/dp/1861264798
this book is well wortha read i reckon for lads calving cows..u

reilig

dar31 wrote: »

edit: when it is out. definitely dont do it if it is still in the cow if that is what you mean

That's what I mean. If you handle the cow to lift the feet and damage the bag that the calf is in - which you will inevitably do to get your hands around the feet to lift them up. Well then its time to get the calf out. If you leave him there for an hour to try to let the cow push him out herself then he is at risk.

whelan1

then you also have the stupid cow who thinks another cows calf is hers and doesnt bother trying to calve herself , just calved one of them a few minutes ago , got fed up watching her mothering a calf that wasnt hers , calf alive and well, happy days.... if i hadnt calved her it would have taken her along time to do it herself:cool:

deerejohn

Having calved between 250 and 300 cows and heifers every year for the last 18 years across both dairy and beef cows, u would think there is not much else to see! But every season there is a calving a little different than anything i have seen before. However it would be highly unlikely after intervening in a calving that i wouldnt complete the calving and take the calf out. Assuming a calf has fully dilated the cervix, if i have to spend 15 minutes manipulating the vaginal opening to make room (esp in a heifer), i will. I remember seeing a reccomendation somewhere about leaving a heifer up to 3 hours from once the legs appear before pulling the calf:eek: if anyone was to follow that theory...................:rolleyes:

rednecks

Every beast do be differnt. Some cows when the water bags burst they fling the calf out. other beast could be a half a day calving from 6that point. Ya can't put a time ojn a beast calvin

jeff greene

Experience is important at calving time, you will develop a sense of when to step in, I will give time, but will handle to see if all is as it should.

I never use difficult calving bulls so that eases my mind. A camera is great also as some cows hate being interrupted

milkprofit

she was about 3-4 hours between blister and calving but cow seemed lazy she would never have calved herself and for such a big cow she shouldnt have had any bother.

POSSIBLE SUP CLINICAL MILK FEVER-- GIVE BOT CALCIUM
Or lack of energy in diet-- increase energy
Was feet stuck down hence blob only appeared later
if she was fully opened better to take calf cow might have been woren out while feet stuck
Get your vet to explain what is a perfect calving-- not what to do in problem cases
you will then have an understanding of what to do when problem arises