Did Cowen buy confidence votes?

LostinKildare

Conor Lenihan on Pat Kenny now. He says Cowen offered a ministerial post to a TD as early as last Friday. Friday -- when he was securing support in advance of announcing a confidence vote.

Did he buy votes and then fail to pay the bill?

SB-08

Everything has indicated this to be the case. It was all part of a plan which is why he made all of the Ministers resign at the same time. Essentially he paid people off to vote for him but the cheque bounced. At this stage I think Cowen is no longer in the right frame of mind to run the country till March 11th - his mental health now must be brought into question. He appears to be on the verge of a breakdown and whatever about the country, FF or his reputation - for his own health he should resign today.

Devilman40k

LostinKildare wrote: »

Conor Lenihan on Pat Kenny now. He says Cowen offered a ministerial post to a TD as early as last Friday. Friday -- when he was securing support in advance of announcing a confidence vote.

Did he buy votes and then fail to pay the bill?

I think it is beyond doubt at this stage that this was the case, and I think he is going to pay a dear price very soon for this act of stupidity!! Mammy O'Rourke is already calling for another motion of no-confidence, McGuinness has called on Martin to push against Cowen and Curran has said that it can be revisited.

O'Dea has come out and said it doesnt matter if its too late to oust him now, they are still likely to be annihilated in the next election so they may as well risk removing him now.

I wouldn't be surprised if Martin is already phoning around to get the 18 signatories to force the motion and get in before Labour do the job for them!

Don't be surprised if Cowen is ousted by next Tuesday!

the groutch

they'll get their chance next week with the Labour motion, if Gilmore presses ahead with it.
it's the proverbial Sword of Damocles

meditraitor

He probably offered the same seat to more than 1 TD, to get a 2-1 for vote......


This may not be true and I feel a bit like leo varadker, unfounded accusations being his forte...... if someone calls me out on it I will apologise(just like leo)

ilovesleep

FF bribing people for votes - no surprise there.

P. Breathnach

LostinKildare wrote: »

Conor Lenihan on Pat Kenny now. He says Cowen offered a ministerial post to a TD as early as last Friday. Friday -- when he was securing support in advance of announcing a confidence vote.

Did he buy votes ... ?

Let's be realistic: that's the way politics works, pretty well in all parties in all democracies.

hallelujajordan

Devilman40k wrote: »

I think it is beyond doubt at this stage that this was the case, and I think he is going to pay a dear price very soon for this act of stupidity!! Mammy O'Rourke is already calling for another motion of no-confidence, McGuinness has called on Martin to push against Cowen and Curran has said that it can be revisited.

O'Dea has come out and said it doesnt matter if its too late to oust him now, they are still likely to be annihilated in the next election so they may as well risk removing him now.

I wouldn't be surprised if Martin is already phoning around to get the 18 signatories to force the motion and get in before Labour do the job for them!

Don't be surprised if Cowen is ousted by next Tuesday!

Mammy O Rourke just said on PK that it is too late for another No Confidence vote. . . The only way anything can happen now is if senior ministers move together and convince Cowen to stand down.

Devilman40k

hallelujajordan wrote: »

Mammy O Rourke just said on PK that it is too late for another No Confidence vote. . . The only way anything can happen now is if senior ministers move together and convince Cowen to stand down.

Well shes flipped in less than 5 hours because on Newstalk this morning she was suggesting it was needed.... more two faced hypocrisy :mad:

hallelujajordan

Devilman40k wrote: »

Well shes flipped in less than 5 hours because on Newstalk this morning she was suggesting it was needed.... more two faced hypocrisy :mad:

Didn't hear her on NT but she said on PK that if there was another vote she would support Cowen again.

LostinKildare

P. Breathnach wrote: »

Let's be realistic: that's the way politics works, pretty well in all parties in all democracies.

Insofar as political corruption and bribery exist in all democracies.

So do we shrug our shoulders and let it pass? Why do the Irish people continue to accept widespread corruption in the political system, from the brown envelopes that change hands before county council planning votes all the way up to what appears to be the taoiseach bribing TDs with ministerial positions in exchange for votes of confidence? Don't we want things to change?

Bribery is a crime punishable by fines and up to 10 years in prison. Just before Christmas the president signed into law the Prevention of Corruption (Amendment) Act 2010, which strengthened the 2001 Act of the same name. From the 2001 Act:

2.1.—(1) An agent or any other person who—
(a) corruptly accepts or obtains, or
(b) corruptly agrees to accept or attempts to obtain,
for himself or herself, or for any other person, any gift, consideration or advantage as an inducement to, or reward for, or otherwise on account of, the agent doing any act or making any omission in relation to his or her office or position or his or her principal's affairs or business shall be guilty of an offence.
(2) A person who—
(a) corruptly gives or agrees to give, or
(b) corruptly offers,
any gift or consideration ["or advantage," added in 2010] to an agent or any other person, whether for the benefit of that agent, person or another person, as an inducement to, or reward for, or otherwise on account of, the agent doing any act or making any omission in relation to his or her office or position or his or her principal's affairs or business shall be guilty of an offence.
(3) A person who knowingly gives to any agent, or an agent who knowingly uses with intent to deceive his or her principal, any receipt, account or other document in respect of which the principal is interested, and which contains any statement which is false or erroneous or defective in any material particular, and which to his or her knowledge is intended to mislead the principal shall be guilty of an offence.
(4) A person guilty of an offence under this section shall be liable—
(a) on summary conviction to a fine not exceeding £2,362.69 or to imprisonment for a term not exceeding 12 months or to both, or
(b) on conviction on indictment to a fine or to imprisonment for a term not exceeding 10 years or to both.
http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/2001/en/act/pub/0027/sec0002.html

Highly Salami

P. Breathnach wrote: »

Let's be realistic: that's the way politics works, pretty well in all parties in all democracies.

I'm quite certain I saw Cowan on RTE or TV3 deny that he promised TDs promotions in return for vote of confidence. Is lying to the voters now okay?

LostinKildare

Highly Salami wrote: »

I'm quite certain I saw Cowan on RTE or TV3 deny that he promised TDs promotions in return for vote of confidence.

Yes, he did. At the end of the interview on RTE 6.1 yesterday. He said he wasn't that low (not the exact quote -- that's the gist of it).

RobbieTheRobber

Highly Salami wrote: »

I'm quite certain I saw Cowan on RTE or TV3 deny that he promised TDs promotions in return for vote of confidence. Is lying to the voters now okay?

If its done in the chambers of the dail yes lying seems to be perfectly acceptable!

spider guardian

LostinKildare wrote: »

Insofar as political corruption and bribery exist in all democracies.

So do we shrug our shoulders and let it pass? Why do the Irish people continue to accept widespread corruption in the political system, from the brown envelopes that change hands before county council planning votes all the way up to what appears to be the taoiseach bribing TDs with ministerial positions in exchange for votes of confidence? Don't we want things to change?

Bribery is a crime punishable by fines and up to 10 years in prison. Just before Christmas the president signed into law the Prevention of Corruption (Amendment) Act 2010, which strengthened the 2001 Act of the same name. From the 2001 Act:

I think you are being a bit hysterical here. I think it's a big stretch to reconcile the definition of bribery with promising jobs for the boys. Undesireable yes but that is how politics has worked in this country for a long time. There's no such thing as a free lunch.

Good arguments if you are calling for reform of the political system, and Cowen's actions yesterday will hopefully set things in motion

P. Breathnach

LostinKildare wrote: »

Insofar as political corruption and bribery exist in all democracies.

The problem is that some things are neither black nor white. The practice of politics involves making deals, forging alliances, postponing problems, dealing with conflicting interests, creating an image, fudging difficult points. Even the noblest politicians, if they are to achieve anything, need to do such things. What marks the honourable politician is that these grubby things are done to advance good causes.

So do we shrug our shoulders and let it pass?

We don't have a real choice. Human nature is involved.

Why do the Irish people continue to accept widespread corruption in the political system, from the brown envelopes that change hands before county council planning votes all the way up to what appears to be the taoiseach bribing TDs with ministerial positions in exchange for votes of confidence?

There are distinctions to be made. Money being surreptitiously slipped into pockets in exchange for votes is clearly corrupt. Appointing a fellow-politician to a political office which is one's gift is not so clearly so. Cabinet appointments are made for a mixture of reasons, and part of the mix is the interest of political parties.

Don't we want things to change?

I'd like that, but it's not going to happen in matters like this.

LostinKildare

spider guardian wrote: »

I think you are being a bit hysterical here. I think it's a big stretch to reconcile the definition of bribery with promising jobs for the boys. Undesireable yes but that is how politics has worked in this country for a long time. There's no such thing as a free lunch.

I don't think I'm being at all hysterical. Indeed, the Act's section 8 ("Corruption in Office") makes it clear that the law applies to just this sort of thing:

8.—(1) A public official who does any act in relation to his or her office or position for the purpose of corruptly obtaining a gift, consideration or advantage for himself, herself or any other person, shall be guilty of an offence and shall be liable—
(a) on summary conviction, to a fine not exceeding £2,362.69 or to imprisonment for a term not exceeding 12 months or to both, or
(b) on conviction on indictment, to a fine or to imprisonment for a term not exceeding 10 years or to both.
http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/2001/en/act/pub/0027/sec0008.html

If true, this is a bit more than mere "jobs for the boys" -- i.e., patronage, which is bad enough -- it's an explicit quid pro quo "if you give me your vote I will give you this job." How is it not a crime as defined in law?

And saying, "this is how politics has worked in Ireland for a long time" seems to me no argument at all. So the public says "Ah shure" when the elite break the law, and they are not held to account. How's that worked out for Ireland?

P. Breathnach

LostinKildare wrote: »

... If true, this is a bit more than mere "jobs for the boys" -- i.e., patronage, which is bad enough -- it's an explicit quid pro quo "if you give me your vote I will give you this job." How is it not a crime as defined in law?...

Note that you need to qualify your argument with "if true". You don't know if it is true; you can't prove that it is true.

I don't think we are discussing corrupt acts. It's just ordinary grubby politics.

LostinKildare

P. Breathnach wrote: »

The problem is that some things are neither black nor white. The practice of politics involves making deals, forging alliances, postponing problems, dealing with conflicting interests, creating an image, fudging difficult points. Even the noblest politicians, if they are to achieve anything, need to do such things. What marks the honourable politician is that these grubby things are done to advance good causes.

Yes, I agree that political dealings are grubby. But we need to draw a line -- actually, we already have drawn a line -- that separates the merely grubby from the illegal. And then we need to punish those who step over that line. Otherwise we're doomed.

P. Breathnach wrote: »

There are distinctions to be made. Money being surreptitiously slipped into pockets in exchange for votes is clearly corrupt. Appointing a fellow-politician to a political office which is one's gift is not so clearly so.

Promoting a subordinate politician to a minister position is bestowing an advantage (term used in the law). In isolation, perfectly just. But doing it explicitly in exchange for a vote is corrupt.

LostinKildare

P. Breathnach wrote: »

Note that you need to qualify your argument with "if true". You don't know if it is true; you can't prove that it is true.

Indeed, that is why I qualified it.

If what Conor Lenihan said is true -- that Cowen offered a ministerial post in exchange for a vote of confidence -- then, with reference to Irish law, it appears to me that a crime was committed.

Peanut2011

The minute he stated that he is the Taoiseach and what he tells goes, he should have been shown the door!