Why can't the next administration pass this magical 'Finance Bill'?

flazio

This is the one thing that Fianna Fail is using as an excuse to hang on in there, this finance bill, any reason this can't be done by the next administration?

jpfahy

I wondered that myself

the groutch

the Finance Bill is a waste of paper anyway, the incoming government will tear it up and deliver a fresh budget anyway

ISAW

the groutch wrote: »

the Finance Bill is a waste of paper anyway, the incoming government will tear it up and deliver a fresh budget anyway

One which involved less tax and more spending? Oops!

Bottle_of_Smoke

IS the IMF loan a done deal?

I guess if it isn't oppposition parties (Sinn Fein, independents and maybe Labour)could say they wouldn't take it. Could be popular

Rosahane

I think that all Bills that are in the system fall when the Dail is dissolved. That said there is nothing stopping an incoming Gov. introducing exactly the same Finance Bill.

Victor

What happens if nobody can secure a majority to form a government end there is another election soon after?

Rodin

If the finance bill has only just become law, can someone explain to me how it has alreay been deducted from pay packets?

Nehaxak

As I understand it (could well be wrong) - The bill isn't enshrined in law until it's passed by the Dail (and I presume then also the Seanad and possibly also the President). Until then, It could be revoked, rethought and rewrote by any new incoming government and indeed the EU/IMF could be brought back to the table for renegotiation of same - and an embarrassment made of FF/Greens.

The budgetary measures (again as I understand it) are different to the actual finance bill (which I don't think anyone bar FF/Greens have actually seen in full yet) and hence can be enacted immediately or as they were dated to come into effect (hence being deducted from your pay packets already).

I would actually like to see the final finance bill in full myself, with all it's full wording, rather than just the one released to the public so far which is available from here http://www.rte.ie/news/2010/1201/finance.pdf
and as it states on the first page, "These documents remain subject to editorial changes. The final documents will be laid before the Houses in due course" as from what I've picked up from what opposition parties have been saying, some changes have been made to the document which only FF and the Greens are privvy too.
Or maybe the actual finance bill itself is a document separate to that which I've linked, which hasn't actually been released publicly at all yet ?

Could also be a fear of any incoming government drastically cutting politicians pension entitlements, or cutting them further than what they were cut already by (which was a pisstake of a cut really) - and hence the amount of political retirements and the FF/Greens hanging on until they push the bill through to suit some of themselves/their party members. Bit of a conspiracy that one, that you could normally rule out of hand right away but given the carry-on of FF/Greens I can't honestly rule it out as a possibility or part thereof myself.

Liam Byrne

Nehaxak wrote: »

As I understand it (could well be wrong) - The bill isn't enshrined in law until it's passed by the Dail (and I presume then also the Seanad and possibly also the President). Until then, It could be revoked, rethought and rewrote by any new incoming government and indeed the EU/IMF could be brought back to the table for renegotiation of same - and an embarrassment made of FF/Greens.

Think they've more than managed that already, so basically there's no reason for them to stay on other than their own delusion ?

pigeonbutler

Nehaxak wrote: »

As I understand it (could well be wrong) - The bill isn't enshrined in law until it's passed by the Dail (and I presume then also the Seanad and possibly also the President). Until then, It could be revoked, rethought and rewrote by any new incoming government and indeed the EU/IMF could be brought back to the table for renegotiation of same - and an embarrassment made of FF/Greens.

The budgetary measures (again as I understand it) are different to the actual finance bill (which I don't think anyone bar FF/Greens have actually seen in full yet) and hence can be enacted immediately or as they were dated to come into effect (hence being deducted from your pay packets already).

I would actually like to see the final finance bill in full myself, with all it's full wording, rather than just the one released to the public so far which is available from here http://www.rte.ie/news/2010/1201/finance.pdf
and as it states on the first page, "These documents remain subject to editorial changes. The final documents will be laid before the Houses in due course" as from what I've picked up from what opposition parties have been saying, some changes have been made to the document which only FF and the Greens are privvy too.
Or maybe the actual finance bill itself is a document separate to that which I've linked, which hasn't actually been released publicly at all yet ?

Could also be a fear of any incoming government drastically cutting politicians pension entitlements, or cutting them further than what they were cut already by (which was a pisstake of a cut really) - and hence the amount of political retirements and the FF/Greens hanging on until they push the bill through to suit some of themselves/their party members. Bit of a conspiracy that one, that you could normally rule out of hand right away but given the carry-on of FF/Greens I can't honestly rule it out as a possibility or part thereof myself.

That's not the finance bill. Here is the Finance Bill http://finance.gov.ie/documents/publications/Financebill2011/finbill2011.pdf

However, unless you're a tax consultant it's not going to mean much to you so I'd suggest reading this http://finance.gov.ie/documents/publications/financebill2011/explmemo2011.pdf

As for changes to pension entitlements to the politicians. There is nothing in this bill that would safeguard those and nothing that would preclude a future government from making changes. The common law principle of the doctrine of "legitimate expectation" could potentially be used by somebody who had benefits drastically cut however I expect the new government would be happy to face down in court anyone who tried challenge them on such measures.

@Rodin The finance bill has not yet become law. It has merely been published and has to pass through the various legislative stages in the Oireachtas. The reason for the immediate hit to your pay packet is that the Provisional collection of taxes Act 1927 allows temporary financial resolutions to be passed (usually on budget night) and become effective immediately pending the passing of the Finance Act. The time limit for the effectiveness of these measures is 4 months. Therefore on the night of the budget the Dail voted to impose the tax changes immediately but unless they pass the Finance Act within 4 months of Budget night the power to imposes those taxes lapses.

ArtSmart

pigeonbutler wrote: »

That's not the finance bill. Here is the Finance Bill http://finance.gov.ie/documents/publications/Financebill2011/finbill2011.pdf

However, unless you're a tax consultant it's not going to mean much to you so I'd suggest reading this http://finance.gov.ie/documents/publications/financebill2011/explmemo2011.pdf

As for changes to pension entitlements to the politicians. There is nothing in this bill that would safeguard those and nothing that would preclude a future government from making changes. The common law principle of the doctrine of "legitimate expectation" could potentially be used by somebody who had benefits drastically cut however I expect the new government would be happy to face down in court anyone who tried challenge them on such measures.

@Rodin The finance bill has not yet become law. It has merely been published and has to pass through the various legislative stages in the Oireachtas. The reason for the immediate hit to your pay packet is that the Provisional collection of taxes Act 1927 allows temporary financial resolutions to be passed (usually on budget night) and become effective immediately pending the passing of the Finance Act. The time limit for the effectiveness of these measures is 4 months. Therefore on the night of the budget the Dail voted to impose the tax changes immediately but unless they pass the Finance Act within 4 months of Budget night the power to imposes those taxes lapses.

great post.

so can one infer that as long as the bill (or similar) is passed by end of april it makes no difference who passes it?

and further, if not passed til after april, how, (other than FDI perception), would it adversely effect the govt revenue take/ any other money in take?

pigeonbutler

ArtSmart wrote: »

great post.

so can one infer that as long as the bill (or similar) is passed by end of april it makes no difference who passes it?

and further, if not passed til after april, how, (other than FDI perception), would it adversely effect the govt revenue take/ any other money in take?

I'm not sure of the figures but if you look back at budget documents they'd indicate how much was expected to be raised in a year for each measure so divide that by 52 to get the amount of lost revenue per week until new measures were enacted. Suffice to say it would be horrendously messy for things like Payroll administration.

ArtSmart

pigeonbutler wrote: »

I'm not sure of the figures but if you look back at budget documents they'd indicate how much was expected to be raised in a year for each measure so divide that by 52 to get the amount of lost revenue per week until new measures were enacted. Suffice to say it would be horrendously messy for things like Payroll administration.

hmmm.
i'd like to get a sense of the overall cost to the country if the finance bill were postponed.
ie are we talking a/catastrophe or b/inconvenience with a=20 and b=1

ISAW

Rodin wrote: »

If the finance bill has only just become law, can someone explain to me how it has alreay been deducted from pay packets?

Nobody knows what Lab or FG will tax more or what they will cut.

The finance Bill tells you what Greens and FF will tax more.
What they already announced in in Part I and what they add to that is in part two
You can find that here:
http://www.finance.gov.ie/viewdoc.asp?DocID=6663

As regards what they would cut that is "Book of Estimates" stuff here:
http://www.budget.gov.ie/budgets/2011/Documents/Estimates%20Budget%202011.pdf

Ironically if you try to reconcile both by accessing this:
http://www.budget.gov.ie/budgets/2011/Documents/White%20paper%20English.pdf

The message you get is "There were too many arguments":)

AS REGARDS OUT 1000 PER CENT OF gdp DEPT.

http://www.imf.org/external/pubs/ft/scr/2010/cr10366.pdf

p.3 2nd doccument and page 2 in the third.

Dirk Gently

ArtSmart wrote: »

great post.

so can one infer that as long as the bill (or similar) is passed by end of april it makes no difference who passes it?

except its the worst kept secret in Ireland that Lab + FG want FF to pass the bill themselves as it saves them from (a) having to think of anything radically different and (b) marrying labours and FG's alternative bills together. FF at this stage of the game really are doing everyone a favour by self destructing while trying to get this bill through. Much is made of FF's political stunts but it's also worth noting the massive bluff of the two opposition parties in relation to the finance bill.

flazio

flazio wrote: »

This is the one thing that Fianna Fail is using as an excuse to hang on in there, this finance bill, any reason this can't be done by the next administration?

yes ff are using it as an excuse to cling on whilst the greens are using it as an excuse to get their calamitous climate change bill passed.
What an utter nightmare with no mandate for either pieces of legislative crap from this monstrously incompetant cabaal..

mickdw

clown bag wrote: »

except its the worst kept secret in Ireland that Lab + FG want FF to pass the bill themselves as it saves them from (a) having to think of anything radically different and (b) marrying labours and FG's alternative bills together. FF at this stage of the game really are doing everyone a favour by self destructing while trying to get this bill through. Much is made of FF's political stunts but it's also worth noting the massive bluff of the two opposition parties in relation to the finance bill.

Noonans latest proposal to allow FF bring this Bill through by friday & then desolve the dail pretty much backs up the above.

ebbsy

There is the possibilty that the Greens may pull out tomorrow.

I would put money on that.

the groutch

ebbsy wrote: »

There is the possibilty that the Greens may pull out tomorrow.

I would put money on that.

+1, they're still delusional, thinking they've got a chance of winning seats in the election, and don't want to give Labour a big boost by ousting the government

Dirk Gently

ebbsy wrote: »

There is the possibilty that the Greens may pull out tomorrow.

I would put money on that.

It would be a typically cowardly green move if they did. I always expected when the game was up the greens would pull some sort of moral publicity stunt, having first burned the green candle at both ends. The time to pull out was before the IMF came in and give a new government a chance to negotiate. A pull out now will be a political stunt and will unnecessarily create a whole new political pantomime as FG and LAB the have to first compete on financial proposals and then attempt to implement a coherent joint Bill after the election, a process which could take an age.

I'm just hoping they have enough mickey mouse green snippets of legislation left to stick around and push through before disappearing after the March 11th election. It wouldn't surprise me though if yes, they did indeed opt for the pathetically weak and transparent stunt of walking out on "moral grounds", having shown zero moral courage over their entire time in government..

The fact that I feel at this point that it's best for FF/Green to stay till the bill is passed is a damning condemnation of a weak fence sitting opposition and my lack of confidence in Lab / FG to produce a sound bill in good time.

I hope that the election after this will be a contest between lab/FG and some new reforming movement, with FF having completely collapsed. If only carlsberg did Irish elections.

ebbsy

Their climate change bill will not go through, nothing for them to stick around for now.

sligopark

the groutch wrote: »

the Finance Bill is a waste of paper anyway, the incoming government will tear it up and deliver a fresh budget anyway

Don't bet on it

nesf

the groutch wrote: »

the Finance Bill is a waste of paper anyway, the incoming government will tear it up and deliver a fresh budget anyway

And not be able to blame one year's worth of hardship on FF? Are you mad, of course they're going to leave the budget in place, it'll take a lot of the early flak off them. Just as how they won't refuse to work with the IMF and will spend their Government term blaming the IMF (and by association FF) for the decisions they have to bring in.

FG are Lab are far, far too crafty to pass up such good opportunities to deflect negative attention from themselves (and they'd be fools not to do so).