Varadkar admits he was wrong on "cronyism"

Fitzerb

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/varadkar-admits-he-was-wrong-on-board-cronyism-2501868.html

It seems our man Leo "the lamb" from FG has now changed his story that FF were not spending the remaining days trying to pack public bodies with friends.
Wow I wonder what brought that change on. Perhaps it was the people he insulted contacted him.

Funny how the Mail , Star and Sun carried the story in BIG headlines and there is no report today from them that Leo has withdrawn the little populace rant he made.

It should be great fun if him and Rabbitte get into Government to see who can make the most Non story the biggest headline.

Remember the Pat "rock the state to its very foundation" Rabbitte story.

If Leo cant get his facts right on this story what chance have we got with him getting his facts right in Government. ?

Absurdum

any politician holding up his/her hands up and admitting that they were wrong is a new concept that we should all welcome

Fitzerb

Absurdum wrote: »

any politician holding up his/her hands up and admitting that they were wrong is a new concept that we should all welcome

LOL only after coming under pressure from the people he insulted no doubt.

Are you saying that a politician can stand up in the house say what he likes without checking the facts wait until the media have damaged that person and then put his hand up and say opps.
Thats not a new concept. Its called mud slinging and its around for years.

Liam Byrne

Fitzerb wrote: »

Are you saying that a politician can stand up in the house say what he likes without checking the facts

You mean say things like "cheapest bailout ever" ? Or how about "He runs a brothel, y'know".....

At least Leo's cock-up didn't cost us billions, and at least he did admit his mistake - something I haven't seen an FF member do in y..... - actually, ever!

Fitzerb

Liam Byrne wrote: »

You mean say things like "cheapest bailout ever" ? Or how about "He runs a brothel, y'know".....

At least Leo's cock-up didn't cost us billions, and at least he did admit his mistake - something I haven't seen an FF member do in y..... - actually, ever!

Incorrect factually.

Ahern said we got things got

Cowan also said we made mistakes.

Its a bit early for Leo the Lamb to have to say sorry and his bum not even in the merc yet.

Liam Byrne

Fitzerb wrote: »

Incorrect factually.

Ahern said we got things got

Cowan also said we made mistakes.

Its a bit early for Leo the Lamb to have to say sorry and his bum not even in the merc yet.

Interesting that you only replied about the second part.

Ahern said he wasn't warned. Despite telling those who warned him about suicide. So forgive me if I don't take his "apology" seriously.

Cowen is reported to have screamed "we're not f**king letting Anglo fail", which means it's not a "mistake", it's a very conscious decision.

So again, any apology isn't sincere or credible.

Now, care to comment on the first part of my previous post ?

Fitzerb

Liam Byrne wrote: »

Interesting that you only replied about the second part.


Cowen is reported to have screamed "we're not f**king letting Anglo fail", which means it's not a "mistake", it's a very conscious decision.

So again, any apology isn't sincere or credible.

Now, care to comment on the first part of my previous post ?

Cowan is reported "Reported".... proof please, or is this more populace ficton

GuanYin

MOD

@Liam Byrne - I'm not sure what your comments have to do with the topic, there are plenty of trheads to discuss those things. Please stay on topic.

Liam Byrne

Apologies.

As stated above, my key point was related far more to the first line of my post rather than the second one that was used to create the tangent.

The OP highlighted a statement made by a TD - one which has been apologised for - and is still making an issue of it, despite apparently having less of an issue with other statements which were made by other TDs...statements which were also proven wrong, were far more damaging, and for which no apology has been forthcoming.

As Absurdum said, if more TDs took responsibility for what they said and did, and apologised properly when they got it wrong, we'd all be in a better place.

Fitzerb

Liam Byrne wrote: »

You mean say things like "cheapest bailout ever" ? Or how about "He runs a brothel, y'know".....

At least Leo's cock-up didn't cost us billions, and at least he did admit his mistake - something I haven't seen an FF member do in y..... - actually, ever!

I do remembr BL saying that.... saying it didnt cost us billions

O dea resigned didnt he for that statement in an affadavit... Mistake made- penalty paid. Will Leo the lamb resign his position based on that.

Liam Byrne

Fitzerb wrote: »

O dea resigned didnt he for that statement in an affadavit... Mistake made- penalty paid. Will Leo the lamb resign his position based on that.

I don't think Leo brazened it out and pretended he never said it until caught out ?

That is why O'Dea was forced to resign, was it not ?

If Leo took that approach - denying he said anything about cronyism until a reporter played his recording - then you might have a point re a parallel; actually, more than might - you would, and I would be right behind you in supporting calls for Varadkar's resignation.

But Leo didn't brazen it out and pretend that he never said it; he simply apologised.

That is dignified and honest.

So there is no parallel, despite your attempt to manufacture one.

whiteonion

We can assume that every single politician is a gombeen and that voting is stupid.

supersean1999

iv more respect for him now for admitting his little indecresion and being a man, thats for the thread, well done leo

JonathanAnon

Liam Byrne wrote: »

Cowen is reported to have screamed "we're not f**king letting Anglo fail", which means it's not a "mistake", it's a very conscious decision.

Hi Liam, just a small correction on that.. I watched Freefall a few times and one of contributors says that during the Government meeting with the AIB and BOI heads, Brian Cowan slammed the table and said "we're not ****ing nationalising Anglo" as this is reportedly what the other banks wanted.... However, Brian Lenihan is the next contributor to the program, and he denies this saying that this happen "at least not when I was in the room"...

At least Leo held his hands up and said "I was wrong and apologised"... Cowan, when talking about the country simply says I am sorry for THE SITUATION that the country is in.... This is more faux sympathetic than a genuine admission of culpability.. Leo is a good guy and we certainly need more people like him.

Balmed Out

leo is the most annoying person I have ever, ever had the misfortune to see on tv and newspapers every second day. What a complete and utter publicity who*e, Can he keep his trap shut just for a little while. He jumps at every opportunity for glory whatever the issue and whatever the view. He represents everything I hate about politicians.

People of West Dublin, please, please do not vote for him.

ISAW

Liam Byrne wrote: »

Interesting that you only replied about the second part.

To be fair Liam he couldn't reply to the first part because FG have rarely got enough people elected to get into power for a full term in about 20 years.
I'm sure one can look at the FG perdecessor governments in the 1920s 30 and 40s but that is before FG existed.

More recently? I don't know I'm sure i could think of some examples. Did Michael Noonan or Brendan Howlin admit mistakes with the Hepatitis C victims for example? It cost them their lives which is a bit more than just money although it cost money too.

Liam Byrne

ISAW wrote: »

To be fair Liam he couldn't reply to the first part because FG have rarely got enough people elected to get into power for a full term in about 20 years.
I'm sure one can look at the FG perdecessor governments in the 1920s 30 and 40s but that is before FG existed.

In fairness, that is irrelevant - my point wasn't whether FG said stuff like that.

It's the fact that the OP seems to be very selective as to what can and can't be falsely claimed, since the examples that I gave were the worst examples ever.

Mind you, since they also tried to equate O'Dea's behaviour, denial and forced resignation in disgrace with Varadkar's dignified apology, it's obviously not a case of treating like with like.

Fitzerb

Liam Byrne wrote: »

In fairness, that is irrelevant - my point wasn't whether FG said stuff like that.

It's the fact that the OP seems to be very selective as to what can and can't be falsely claimed, since the examples that I gave were the worst examples ever.

Mind you, since they also tried to equate O'Dea's behaviour, denial and forced resignation in disgrace with Varadkar's dignified apology, it's obviously not a case of treating like with like.

So is it your view that it is ok to criticise anyone without having the checked out the facts , get the headlines, wait a few days to damage someone and then say sorry.

The attempt to muddy the waters is not working for me.

supersean1999

Fitzerb wrote: »

So is it your view that it is ok to criticise anyone without having the checked out the facts , get the headlines, wait a few days to damage someone and then say sorry.

The attempt to muddy the waters is not working for me.

as a ff supporter, you should be more worried have you anyone left to vote for,:D

Liam Byrne

Fitzerb wrote: »

So is it your view that it is ok to criticise anyone without having the checked out the facts , get the headlines, wait a few days to damage someone and then say sorry.

The attempt to muddy the waters is not working for me.

Interesting.....you attempted your own muddying by comparing the above with O'Dea's antics, and having made that false comparison, you didn't apologise for it or acknowledge that you were 100% wrong.

Do you reckon you did damage to Varadkar by the above sequence of events ?

By your own standards, would you resign ? Or would you just apologise and admit that you were wrong ? Or would you do an O'Dea and brazen it out ?

T runner

Absurdum wrote: »

any politician holding up his/her hands up and admitting that they were wrong is a new concept that we should all welcome

Yes, an alternative of libel/slander charges will produce these admirable traits in politicians. Politicians bull****ting is not a new concept unfortunately.

T runner

Liam Byrne wrote: »

You mean say things like "cheapest bailout ever" ? Or how about "He runs a brothel, y'know".....

At least Leo's cock-up didn't cost us billions, and at least he did admit his mistake - something I haven't seen an FF member do in y..... - actually, ever!

So, Varadker publicly making falses claims is rationalised by whataboutery. A FG politician lies/spreads false information: its FFs fault. Unbelievable.

BlaasForRafa

Fitzerb wrote: »

So is it your view that it is ok to criticise anyone without having the checked out the facts , get the headlines, wait a few days to damage someone and then say sorry.

The thing is that these days the default expectation is that FF are corrupt and decisions made by them are in the parties interest rather than the countries interest.

BlaasForRafa

T runner wrote: »

Politicians bull****ting is not a new concept unfortunately.

Yeah, we see it every time Brian Cowen shows his face in the Dail or on TV/Radio.

Liam Byrne

T runner wrote: »

So, Varadker publicly making falses claims is rationalised by whataboutery. A FG politician lies/spreads false information: its FFs fault. Unbelievable.

Incorrect.

Calling for one to resign while condoning the other is the inconsistency and double-standards that I was highlighting.

In addition, I haven't heard Lenihan apologise.

If both lie, then both should be treated equally*.
If both apologise, then both should be treated equally*.

*Depending, of course, on the scale of the lie and its implications.

T runner

Liam Byrne wrote: »

Incorrect.

Calling for one to resign while condoning the other is the inconsistency and double-standards that I was highlighting.

In addition, I haven't heard Lenihan apologise.

If both lie, then both should be treated equally*.
If both apologise, then both should be treated equally*.

*Depending, of course, on the scale of the lie and its implications.

No. You replied to the OP by saying whatabout Ahern. Lenihan etc.

What these people said or did has no bearing on whether Varadker was right to misrepresent the facts. Absolutley none. Either he was right or wrong.

We need a change in philosophy in this country not whataboutery and more excuses. Vardaker at the very least was lazy finding facts where peopels reputations were concerned. Not good qualities for a potential cabinet member. Please, no whatabouteries about FF ministers to rationalise Varadkers shortcomings.

Liam Byrne

T runner wrote: »

No. You replied to the OP by saying whatabout Ahern. Lenihan etc.

What these people said or did has no bearing on whether Varadker was right to misrepresent the facts. Absolutley none. Either he was right or wrong.

We need a change in philosophy in this country not whataboutery and more excuses. Vardaker at the very least was lazy finding facts where peopels reputations were concerned. Not good qualities for a potential cabinet member.

Please, no whatabouteries about FF ministers to rationalise Varadkers shortcomings.

You're ignoring the point. I actually agree with a lot of what you said above.

Whether or not Varadkar's apology is sufficient would actually be a valid discussion, however having an OP who has condoned worse (and who then tried to make Varadkar's error and apology look as bad as someone who said worse, issued no apology and tried to brazen it out until explicity found out) makes this whole thread look like yet more FF mud-slinging.

Either you object to such actions or you don't; it doesn't - or rather, shouldn't - matter who commits them.

THAT is my objection to this whole thread. If Biggins or someone neutral had started it, there would have been a better discussion, and if the OP hadn't tried to equate it with O'Dea it might even have been a reasonable discussion to determine whether an apology was sufficient.

Pointing out those double-standards is not "whataboutery"; it's not "what about Lenihan", per se, it's "what about the OP's stance re others, and why is this one pointedly different".

So with that in mind, let's get back on track : Varadkar made a mistake and apologised, and that is something that is sadly lacking in FF in particular, and in politics in general, therefore should be welcomed.

Who knows, maybe one day we'll aim for politicians who don't even make such errors, and I look forward to that day.

But for now (sadly) putting a hand up and admitting / apologising is a welcome step in the right direction.

Liam Byrne

Actually, if you read the article linked to, it doesn't match the headline!

Mr Varadkar accepted it was an over-simplification to state that Fianna Fail was using its remaining time in office to pack state bodies with political appointees, as he had declared in a statement earlier this week.

"They are not all cronies by any means or political party supporters. But at the same time, there should still be a proper process of scrutiny," he said.

Mr Varadkar said: "A lot of them are actually very qualified and when I speak to them a lot of them do want a new system."

So basically what he has said is that some are cronyism and some aren't.

Not exactly the same as saying "I was completely wrong about all of that", now is it ?

Definitely guilty of over-generalisation, but not completely wrong.

Fitzerb

Liam Byrne wrote: »

Interesting.....you attempted your own muddying by comparing the above with O'Dea's antics, and having made that false comparison, you didn't apologise for it or acknowledge that you were 100% wrong.

Do you reckon you did damage to Varadkar by the above sequence of events ?

By your own standards, would you resign ? Or would you just apologise and admit that you were wrong ? Or would you do an O'Dea and brazen it out ?

Still no answer to the question

Wide Road

Fitzerb wrote: »

Still no answer to the question

Live in hope, and die in despair.

Liam Byrne

Fitzerb wrote: »

Still no answer to the question

What question would that be ?

EDIT : Oh - this one :

Fitzerb wrote: »

So is it your view that it is ok to criticise anyone without having the checked out the facts , get the headlines, wait a few days to damage someone and then say sorry.

Answered here : http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=70188849&postcount=27

Liam Byrne wrote:

So with that in mind, let's get back on track : Varadkar made a mistake and apologised, and that is something that is sadly lacking in FF in particular, and in politics in general, therefore should be welcomed.

Who knows, maybe one day we'll aim for politicians who don't even make such errors, and I look forward to that day.

But for now (sadly) putting a hand up and admitting / apologising is a welcome step in the right direction.

But I guess it's easier to claim that the question wasn't answered and try to discredit me.....it won't work.

Now in return, any chance you'd clarify matters re your double-standards, and apologise for trying to slander Varadkar by comparing his actions to those of "I never said that (oh crap it was recorded)" O'Dea ?

goat2

the problem i am having is, he is after giving two jobs to people who could not do one job properly with the past number of yrs

Liam Byrne

goat2 wrote: »

the problem i am having is, he is after giving two jobs to people who could not do one job properly with the past number of yrs

Who is ?

goat2

Liam Byrne wrote: »

Who is ?

sorry for putting you off topic, but you are discussing leo, it was mr cowen i was speaking of

Liam Byrne

goat2 wrote: »

sorry for putting you off topic, but you are discussing leo, it was mr cowen i was speaking of

Probably partially relevant because it's what Varadkar was objecting to.

Wide Road

Fitzerb wrote: »

So is it your view that it is ok to criticise anyone without having the checked out the facts , get the headlines, wait a few days to damage someone and then say sorry.

The attempt to muddy the waters is not working for me.

+1.
It suits people at times, doesn't it.

Leo yesterday was firmly in the background during the TV caption. I noticed it, but I'm sure he is biting to get back out again. Has he served his time for going against Enda recently.

T runner

Liam Byrne wrote: »

You're ignoring the point. I actually agree with a lot of what you said above.

Whether or not Varadkar's apology is sufficient would actually be a valid discussion, however having an OP who has condoned worse (and who then tried to make Varadkar's error and apology look as bad as someone who said worse, issued no apology and tried to brazen it out until explicity found out) makes this whole thread look like yet more FF mud-slinging.

You have to attack the post not the poster. The OP did not mention FF in his OP. You brought this whataboutery in.

Either you object to such actions or you don't; it doesn't - or rather, shouldn't - matter who commits them.

No it shouldnt. But if FF commit them: you regard it as corruption, unethical behavioue etc. If FG commit them your argument is "what about FF?". This is de facto condoning FG and slamming FF for the same sin.

THAT is my objection to this whole thread. If Biggins or someone neutral had started it, there would have been a better discussion, and if the OP hadn't tried to equate it with O'Dea it might even have been a reasonable discussion to determine whether an apology was sufficient.

Attack the post on its merits.

Pointing out those double-standards is not "whataboutery"; it's not "what about Lenihan", per se, it's "what about the OP's stance re others, and why is this one pointedly different".

Is your attacking FF but condoning FG bot double standards. Taking your outlook anyone can now accuse you of double standards should youa ttack FF again.

So with that in mind, let's get back on track : Varadkar made a mistake and apologised, and that is something that is sadly lacking in FF in particular, and in politics in general, therefore should be welcomed.

Ans as i pointed out: If you make such a glaring mistake: declaring that FF were appointing their men in droves to public bodies when in fact no-one was appointed, it is politically expedient to apologise.

Maybe one day we'll aim for politicians who don't even make such errors, and I look forward to that day.

So you are satisfied with a minster of teh standard who makes errors such as not even bothereing to check facts and or deliberate misrepresentation, as long as they apologise?

Im sorry but this is not good enough.

But for now (sadly) putting a hand up and admitting / apologising is a welcome step in the right direction.

Again you condone incompetence in parties you support as long as they apologise for it?

We deserve better.

galway2007

Liam Byrne wrote: »

I don't think Leo brazened it out and pretended he never said it until caught out ?

That is why O'Dea was forced to resign, was it not ?

If Leo took that approach - denying he said anything about cronyism until a reporter played his recording - then you might have a point re a parallel; actually, more than might - you would, and I would be right behind you in supporting calls for Varadkar's resignation.

But Leo didn't brazen it out and pretend that he never said it; he simply apologised.

That is dignified and honest.

So there is no parallel, despite your attempt to manufacture one.

Liam he has not got a clue about what he comments on
Enda had a chance to put him on the backbench and he should have done it.
Varadkar is a dictator / bully and we don’t need his type in the dail

Monty Burnz

Fitzerb wrote: »

Cowan is reported "Reported".... proof please, or is this more populace ficton

It's tricky to prove some of this 'populace fiction' (sic) when it's one person's word against another. Can Cowen prove that what he claimed happened between himself and Seanie Fitz is true? No. Will that stop him claiming it? No.

sensibleken

Is varadkar still offering people money to leave the country? Any chance I could take him up if he gets anywhere near a cabinet post?

BostonB

I like the idea that Varadkar digs and stirs up a bit. But I don't really like the guy at all. Theres just something about him.

Monty Burnz

Wide Road wrote: »

Off topic, there's enough topics on Seanie and co.
Try and stick to poor Leo and his wrongdoing.
Is it Leo's way of staying in the limelight?

I'm dealing with FitzerB's claims that certain things are 'poulace fiction' (sic) from page one of the thread. I'm not interested in talking about Seanie either.

Incidentally, have we established that it's not true that Fianna Failure have allowed the number of quangos to mushroom and have stuffed them full of Fianna Failures? What is beautician Celia Larkin up to these days, does anyone know?

BlaasForRafa

Wide Road wrote: »

Off topic, there's enough topics on Seanie and co.
Try and stick to poor Leo and his wrongdoing.
Is it Leo's way of staying in the limelight?

yeah like Leo Varadkar making some mildly incorrect comments is equivalent to Fianna Fail and Anglo wrecking the country :rolleyes:

meditraitor

BlaasForRafa wrote: »

yeah like Leo Varadkar making some mildly incorrect comments is equivalent to Fianna Fail and Anglo wrecking the country :rolleyes:

Mildly incorrect my ar$e, he clearly lied about it and was caught out on his lies. FF lite,

Liam Byrne

meditraitor wrote: »

Mildly incorrect my ar$e, he clearly lied about it and was caught out on his lies. FF lite,

Will anyone else please read the article before commenting further ?

He qualified the statement by saying that not all of the appointments were cronyism.

Having a whole thread based on biased misrepresentation of the facts is a little tiresome.

BlaasForRafa

Liam Byrne wrote: »

Having a whole thread based on biased misrepresentation of the facts is a little tiresome.

Welcome to Fianna-Fail-Land.

Liam Byrne

BlaasForRafa wrote: »

Welcome to Fianna-Fail-Land.

Well to be fair the headline-writer for the linked article is probably the most at fault there.

But yeah, you'd imagine that someone would actually read a report - not just a point-scoring headline - before using it as the basis.

Hmmm.....that sounds familiar! Guess you're right - welcome to FF land, where facts and reading reports are skipped.