Is this legal?

Moromaster

My school dropped German for the junior cycle, and is dropping it for the senior cycle if the fifth year class next year doesn't have ten people. (Not gonna' happen, we're gonna get nine probably, and if we wanted that I would have to skip TY).

So is this legal? Can my school legally force me to stop doing a course they offered me when I started secondary school?

rebel10

Moromaster wrote: »

My school dropped German for the junior cycle, and is dropping it for the senior cycle if the fifth year class next year doesn't have ten people. (Not gonna' happen, we're gonna get nine probably, and if we wanted that I would have to skip TY).

So is this legal? Can my school legally force me to stop doing a course they offered me when I started secondary school?

Yes. How could anyone see that paying a teacher to teach a class of nine when other classes are over-crowded is acceptable? Optional subjects, those that you choose to take on for your state examinations have always had this problem. I teach a subject which is optional. I have to push kids in T.Y. to keep it on for the L.C. If my class in 5th year has only 9 students, i don't think it would be fair to deprive the majority. The other classes would be over-crowded. Generally, in my school, 12 is the minimum number for each class, and this is understandable considering the serious impact on teaching hours obliged to each school this year. Why not take German outside of school, many students take on extra subjects to avoid counting Ordinary level subjects for their leaving cert.

rainbowtrout

Moromaster wrote: »

My school dropped German for the junior cycle, and is dropping it for the senior cycle if the fifth year class next year doesn't have ten people. (Not gonna' happen, we're gonna get nine probably, and if we wanted that I would have to skip TY).

So is this legal? Can my school legally force me to stop doing a course they offered me when I started secondary school?

yes, it is. If your school doesn't have the resources to be able to timetable a class with so few students in it, it gets dropped from the timetable. This has always happened in schools and is happening more since the cuts of the last few years.

If they've already dropped it for JC in your school, it's on its way out one way or the other. All they have to do is see out the remaining classes in the school. So if there are small numbers applying to do it in fifth year they won't run it.

And they're not 'legally forcing you to stop doing a course'. They're not in a position to offer it. You can do it outside school if you want.


There was a thread on here a while back about schools that don't offer Honours Maths to LC. It's more common than you think, particularly in small schools where perhaps only 1 or 2 students want to do it. It's either do OL maths or move school. Chemistry is also another problem if it is not offered, particularly for those who want to go the Dentistry/Veterinary/Medicine route.

ruadhan

My school must be really weird then. It's a medium sized school I guess, like 350 or 400 students but most of my objects have really small classes. Not that all the classes are small, I just seemed to pick unpopular choices. Higher Irish has 8, higher maths 10, higher French 14, accounting has 7, physics has 8, economics has 13 and my only big class is English which is one of the higher classes that has 26 people..

Chris Martin

My Chemistry class has 6, the year below me 5,
Usually its when a class has too many pupils where it splits...
Biology was full and had to cut people out...

Now you can alwas learn subject outside school time but cant force them to teach it either..

rebel10

ruadhan wrote: »

My school must be really weird then. It's a medium sized school I guess, like 350 or 400 students but most of my objects have really small classes. Not that all the classes are small, I just seemed to pick unpopular choices. Higher Irish has 8, higher maths 10, higher French 14, accounting has 7, physics has 8, economics has 13 and my only big class is English which is one of the higher classes that has 26 people..

Yes, there has to be both higher level Irish and Maths available to the students, these aren't optional subjects. Is French the only European language taught in your school? How many are in your year?
My 5th year group has only 30 in the entire year, only 7 are doing my subject, the others are doing one other in this option block, the other two subjects were dropped due to lack of interest.
Unfortunately, schools can't offer every subject to every student, timetabling and staff shortages don't allow this. Teachers who have very few hours are being let go, this will impact on subject options and class sizes. If a school says that German is taught in the school at L.C. level, then it is, but obviously if class sizes are too low and there isin't enough of an interest/demand for the subject, the principal and Board of managements have to consider the impact on every student if the subject was taught to a class with only 9 students in it. You can be sure that another class is over-crowded.

randylonghorn

Moromaster wrote: »

So is this legal? Can my school legally force me to stop doing a course they offered me when I started secondary school?

Um ... ?

Where are you getting the idea that you have a legal right to have German offered to you for LC, or that the school has a legal obligation to offer German, simply because it was an option for Junior?

Some people seem to have the weirdest ideas about their "rights"!

coffeelover

Yes it's legal.
Hmmm There's only 1 or 2 people in some of my classes.

RH149

Does that mean you'll have no modern language? From time to time they've dropped Physics or Chemistry in our school for a particular year as the numbers were too low but they allowed a class of seven for Spanish as those students had no other language and it would have really limited their CAO options. I doubt they were legally obliged to do that though.

rainbowtrout

rebel10 wrote: »

Yes, there has to be both higher level Irish and Maths available to the students, these aren't optional subjects.

No, a school has to offer Irish and Maths. They don't have to offer it at higher level if they cannot provide for it from the resources they have. A secondary school not 10 miles from me does not offer higher Maths. If a student wants to do it they have to study it themselves, get grinds outside school or move school. Lots of small rural schools are like this, or schools with really small numbers (under 200).

coffeelover wrote: »

Yes it's legal.
Hmmm There's only 1 or 2 people in some of my classes.

No, it's not a legal obligation, you're just fortunate to be in a school that can afford to offer such small classes. I work in a school where I taught a class of 4 for Chemistry a few years back. We had the resources back then, we don't now.

If 24 chose biology the class would be split into two 12s when resources allowed to give students a better chance, now it's just one class of 24.

rebel10

rainbowtrout wrote: »

No, a school has to offer Irish and Maths. They don't have to offer it at higher level if they cannot provide for it from the resources they have. A secondary school not 10 miles from me does not offer higher Maths. If a student wants to do it they have to study it themselves, get grinds outside school or move school. Lots of small rural schools are like this, or schools with really small numbers (under 200).

God, I teach in a school with about 350 students, a small school in comparison with many others. I find it very hard to believe that students intending to do Higher level in a subject are not accomodated in the school. I'm shocked. In my school, if incidents like this occur, both higher and ordinary are placed in the same class and taught by the same teacher who divides teaching time between levels. It works. What kind of insentive is there for kids to aim for a higher level in a subject if it isin't offered. I'm sorry, but I feel like schools who operate in this way are failing their students needs.

rainbowtrout wrote: »

No, it's not a legal obligation, you're just fortunate to be in a school that can afford to offer such small classes. I work in a school where I taught a class of 4 for Chemistry a few years back. We had the resources back then, we don't now.

If 24 chose biology the class would be split into two 12s when resources allowed to give students a better chance, now it's just one class of 24.

Think the poster was saying what the school is doing is legal.

rainbowtrout

rebel10 wrote: »

God, I teach in a school with about 350 students, a small school in comparison with many others. I find it very hard to believe that students intending to do Higher level in a subject are not accomodated in the school. I'm shocked. In my school, if incidents like this occur, both higher and ordinary are placed in the same class and taught by the same teacher who divides teaching time between levels. It works. What kind of insentive is there for kids to aim for a higher level in a subject if it isin't offered. I'm sorry, but I feel like schools who operate in this way are failing their students needs.

Think the poster was saying what the school is doing is legal.

My school does offer Higher Level. There are about 400 students in my school. The kind of schools I'm talking about have 120 students. The type that have only one class of 20-25 in each year. I honestly can't see how it's feasible to teach honours maths to one student and pass to the rest and maybe have a couple of foundation level students in there for good measure. This is a really common occurrence in small schools in the west of Ireland.

Those schools often only have about 10 teaching staff and don't have the resources to offer both levels let alone offer a range of subjects. One school that comes to mind is in west Mayo, has about 75 students. All students must do Irish, English, Maths and French for LC. No choice about the French. For their other three subjects they get a choice of something like Biology or Geography, Ag Science or Business, Home Ec or Woodwork. That's it no other options. They're limited in what they can offer to such a small cohort yet they offer subjects in such a way they they have the option of a science, business, practical and everyone does a foreign language for college entry requirements. When you have only 15 in LC you can't split classes that much for levels including the core subjects.

rebel10

Understand what you are saying, but to tell students who want to do a higher level in a chosen subject to find another school isin't the answer i feel.
To be honest, a teacher teaching split levels isin't ideal, but it is done, and is the most reasonable option as far as i can see in these circumstances. For subjects like maths, the subject is taught to Higher level students for 20mins and then they are given exam paper ques. to do and then visa versa for the ordinary level students. The curriculum is taught, and everyone is happy with the arrangement. I don't think numbers in schools should have any impact on students wishing to do a higher level in a subject, wherever their location.

To be honest, the example you gave of the school sounds very similar to my own, although we have more students, we do not offer another European language besides French, and students must pick two subjects from Woodwork, Chemistry, Physics, Biology and Economics. Although they aren't the widest of options for the students, they are happy, and students wishing to take on another subject, does so after school hours. However, every level is provided for, as I believe this takes priority. Every student has a different learning need, and if these are ignored or unaddressed (by sending students to different schools in order to take on a higher level paper) then the school is simply failing the students in my opionion.

spurious

rebel10 wrote: »

I'm sorry, but I feel like schools who operate in this way are failing their students needs.

The people who are failing the students' needs are the people who have consistently cut education funding, increased class sizes and eroded special needs provisions. This isn't the schools and it is not the teachers.

Hint - they give themselves large pay rises and slither away 'retire' when it looks like they'll be given a justified pasting in an upcoming election.

rebel10

spurious wrote: »

The people who are failing the students' needs are the people who have consistently cut education funding, increased class sizes and eroded special needs provisions. This isn't the schools and it is not the teachers.

Hint - they give themselves large pay rises and slither away 'retire' when it looks like they'll be given a justified pasting in an upcoming election.

I completely agree with you. As a teacher myself, I know how the conditions for students are worsening. I suppose what I am trying to say is that at local level, i feel the schools should be doing everything they can do offer both higher and ordinary levels in all subjects. If it can be done in optional subjects, (I teach higher & ordinary together), why can it not be done in the core subjects?

rainbowtrout

rebel10 wrote: »

I completely agree with you. As a teacher myself, I know how the conditions for students are worsening. I suppose what I am trying to say is that at local level, i feel the schools should be doing everything they can do offer both higher and ordinary levels in all subjects. If it can be done in optional subjects, (I teach higher & ordinary together), why can it not be done in the core subjects?

There is usually a far greater difference in the higher and ordinary level courses for higher and ordinary level irish, english and maths than there is in other subjects. The fact that a combination of the three, if not all three is a requirement for entry to most college courses would indicate their importance and that students should be given the time and not have a teacher chopping and changing between courses.

Also for most small schools it's widely known in their locality that they don't offer certain levels at leaving cert (eg no honours maths) and parents still choose to send their children there and either accept the consequences of that or allow them to move to another school for LC. In fact the school I mentioned in an earlier post which is close to where I am also has a compulsory transition year. Many parents still send their children there for JC and then allow them to move in LC to avoid TY and to allow them do higher level maths, or choose a subject like chemistry which is not on offer.

Principals go begging to the department every september asking for their allocation to be increased for this and that, if they go begging for an allocation for a higher level maths class in fifth year for 1 student they'll be told where to go.

rebel10

I suppose we will have to disagree on those points. Fair enough if the school has outlined from day one that higher level in certain subjects are not options for the L.C. But, I certainly don't agree that "chopping and changing" takes place in classes that do both higher and ordinary level in one. In fact, i would guess that many schools operate this system, and if it was failing the students these mixed classes would not be undertaken by teachers. Its challenging, but not impossible. Many teachers who have resource classes often team-teach in classes where a student has resource hours and so benefits others also, but thats a different topic.

I don't think its impossible to teach both levels in one class, as i have said, it is done in my school, and certainly the results have never been affected. Suppose we will have to agree to disagree.

randylonghorn

rebel10 wrote: »

Suppose we will have to agree to disagree.

Or take it over to T&L?

caoimheb04

im the same!!

Moromaster

Well it's not a matter of it being unfair to the teacher, she's said herself that she would gladly teach a class of nine and that when Germans gone she's leaving the school completely (She's also an English teacher).

And for the people saying 'Oh just take it outside school', I'm already taking art outside of school and I've checked how much German classes are in my (generally) local area are, and the cheapest are 35 (Not including the train fare I'd have to waste going backwards and forwards).

What I'm saying is wrong about it is, we weren't told in sixth class that we wouldn't be able to finish our leaving certificate in our school. There'd be outrage if the school suddenly decided to drop Biology or History, yet we're being given an 'Oh well sucks to be you'.

Basically I either have to A) Learn French very, very quickly Drop German for the leaving cert and MASSIVLY reduce the amount of universaty courses I can do or C) Spend several thousand euro plus waste a huge amount of time learning a subject that should be taught in school.