Can someone explain the voting procedure(simply)

chucken1

We were having a discussion here last night about voting,and we seemed to be at odds as to whether or not you have to vote for everyone on the ballot.

Many people are voting for the first time and it would be a pity if they were'nt clear on the actual procedure.

Uriel.

You don't have to vote for everyone on the paper, no. You may just vote for one. Essentially, though you can rank them in order of preference. Number 1 being first preference and so on down the line until you run out of candidates.

See attached for a narrative on the counting procedure from the Citizens Info.

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/government_in_ireland/elections_and_referenda/voting/proportional_representation.html

chucken1

So,let suppose I just vote for 1 candidate,and he doesnt make the quota..where would those votes go, if he's the only 1 representing his party in this constituency?

amacachi

chucken1 wrote: »

So,let suppose I just vote for 1 candidate,and he doesnt make the quota..where would those votes go, if he's the only 1 representing his party in this constituency?

Nowhere. Only the votes over the quota are transferred and they're transferred in proportion to the preferences. So if someone got 100 votes over the quota but all were just marked with a 1 (unlikely) then there'd be no transfers.

Lynnsie

chucken1 wrote: »

So,let suppose I just vote for 1 candidate,and he doesnt make the quota..where would those votes go, if he's the only 1 representing his party in this constituency?

It doesn't matter if he is the only one representing his party or if there are other candidates from the same party - if you haven't a no.2 vote, your vote won't be transferred once it has been counted as a no. 1 vote for the candidate.

chucken1

amacachi wrote: »

Nowhere. Only the votes over the quota are transferred and they're transferred in proportion to the preferences. So if someone got 100 votes over the quota but all were just marked with a 1 (unlikely) then there'd be no transfers.

Thanks! Lets turn this on its head..What if he did make the quota with surplus..Where would the surplus go if hes the only one from his party?

Lynnsie

chucken1 wrote: »

Thanks! Lets turn this on its head..What if he did make the quota with surplus..Where would the surplus go if hes the only one from his party?

To the candidates who received no. 2 votes in proportion to the number of no. 2s the other candidates get - again it has nothing to do with the party of each candidate

chucken1

Miss Lala wrote: »

To the no. 2 votes in proportion to the number of no. 2s the other candidates get - again it has nothing to do with the party of each candidate

Are you serious :eek:..So if I vote for lets say Labour and he exceeds the quota,his excess could be passed on to fianna fail?

amacachi

chucken1 wrote: »

Thanks! Lets turn this on its head..What if he did make the quota with surplus..Where would the surplus go if hes the only one from his party?

It doesn't matter what party someone is standing for, it depends on who the people that voted for him put down as their second preference.
If person A gets elected then their surplus is transferred in proportion to other candidates marked as "2" on the ballot papers that had "1" next to person A's name. If someone is eliminated after a round of voting then all their votes go to the people marked as "2" on those ballot papers.

Parties don't matter in the count. Obviously most transfers remain in-party if there's more than one candidate but it goes by what's marked, not what party is next to someone's name.

amacachi

chucken1 wrote: »

Are you serious :eek:..So if I vote for lets say Labour and he exceeds the quota,his excess could be passed on to fianna fail?

If enough people who voted him No. 1 then put down a FF candidate as 2 then some of the transfers will go to that FF candidate.

Lynnsie

chucken1 wrote: »

Are you serious :eek:..So if I vote for lets say Labour and he exceeds the quota,his excess could be passed on to fianna fail?

Yes and although many transfers are inter-party, a candidate's surplus is usually split up between many different candidates and parties. But if you voted Labour and didn't vote no.2 for FF, your vote won't go to FF

LostinBlanch

OK I'll give it a go.

Register: First of all make sure you're on the register to vote. Go to www.checktheregister.ie and see if you're on the register to vote. If not, don't worry you can go to your local authority and get onto the supplementary register. This is a register which allows those who aren't on the electoral register but are eligible to vote to do so.

Consitituencies: The country is broken up into a number of constituencies which more or less (but not always) follow local authority lines. Each constituency has to have a minimum number of voters determined by the constitution. This is why you see low population areas merged into single constituencies e.g. Sligo / Leitrim etc.

Constituency Size: Constituencies are either 3, 4 or 5 seaters. This means that each constituency returns 3, 4 or 5 candidates. The size of a constituency is determined by the Electoral Commission.

Electorate: This is the number of voters in a constituency eligible to vote in elections.

Voting System: The voting system is a form of proportional representation called the single transferable vote (STV). This differs from the first past the post system in the UK where only one seat is awarded per constituency and you only have one vote. The STV means that you can vote for any number of candidates in your constituency. You do this by putting a 1 besides the candidate of your choice, a 2 beside your 2nd choice, a 3 beside your 3rd choice etc all the way down the list.

Quota: This is the minimum amount of votes that are required for a candidate to be elected. The quota is determined by a formula which basically works out as electorate divded by the number of seats + 1. So for a 4 seater constituency with an electorate of 10,000 voters the quota would be 10,000/4 + 1 or 2,501 votes. Any surplus votes for a candidate are then divided among the other candidates according to what other candidates people voted for down the list. So if Candidate A is elected at the first time of counting with 3,001 votes, then the extra 500 votes are redistributed to other candidates. These 500 votes are also known as transfers.

Electoral counts Each seat in a constituency has to be to be filled by law. So if Candidate A above was elected with 3,001 votes his/her 500 extra votes would be redistributed in a 2nd count. So if Candidate B has 2300 votes and Candidate C has 2250 votes after the 1st count then Candidate A's transfers may bring either B or C up to the Quota. Lets say Candidate B gets 140 votes and Candidate C gets 300 votes from Candidate A. Then Candidate C has the quota and is elected. Candidate B has to go to a 3rd count (or more). Also other candidates who have the smallest amount of votes in these counts are eliminated and their votes redistributed to the other candidates. So say Candidate F has 250 votes but this is the lowest amount of votes of all remaining candidates then he/she is eliminated.

Single voters: Someone who only votes for one candidate only. Also known as a plumper i.e. plumps for one candidate. This kind of vote plays into the hands of bigger parties who have a strong core vote and who vote for their parties candidates all the way down the list to make sure they get in on 2nd, 3rd counts etc. By voting for only one candidate you are letting them have a free run at getting their candidates in on subsequent rounds of voting. If you don't want this to happen, then you may want to consider tactical voting.

Tactical Voting: If you don't want any member of any particular party to be elected then vote against them all the way down the list. Say for example that you don't want any FF or Green candidate to be elected then you make sure you vote all the way down the list against them. In other words vote for all other candidates except them. This makes it harder for them to get elected in subsequent rounds of voting. It applies more to FF in this case as they have more candidates in constituencies than the Greens who only have one candidate per constituency and who rely on transfers to get elected anyway.

So there you have it. I hope it isn't TLDR.

chucken1

amacachi wrote: »

If enough people who voted him No. 1 then put down a FF candidate as 2 then some of the transfers will go to that FF candidate.

I understand why...but :mad::mad::mad:

So here it will look like 'you're damed if you do and damed if you dont'

amacachi

chucken1 wrote: »

I understand why...but :mad::mad::mad:

So here it will look like 'you're damed if you do and damed if you dont'

Not really, your transfer is worth the same as anyone else's, just like your initial vote is worth the same as everyone else's.

chucken1

LostinBlanch wrote: »

OK I'll give it a go.

Register: First of all make sure you're on the register to vote. Go to www.checktheregister.ie and see if you're on the register to vote. If not, don't worry you can go to your local authority and get onto the supplementary register. This is a register which allows those who aren't on the electoral register but are eligible to vote to do so.

Consitituencies: The country is broken up into a number of constituencies which more or less (but not always) follow local authority lines. Each constituency has to have a minimum number of voters determined by the constitution. This is why you see low population areas merged into single constituencies e.g. Sligo / Leitrim etc.

Constituency Size: Constituencies are either 3, 4 or 5 seaters. This means that each constituency returns 3, 4 or 5 candidates. The size of a constituency is determined by the Electoral Commission.

Electorate: This is the number of voters in a constituency eligible to vote in elections.

Voting System: The voting system is a form of proportional representation called the single transferable vote (STV). This differs from the first past the post system in the UK where only one seat is awarded per constituency and you only have one vote. The STV means that you can vote for any number of candidates in your constituency. You do this by putting a 1 besides the candidate of your choice, a 2 beside your 2nd choice, a 3 beside your 3rd choice etc all the way down the list.

Quota: This is the minimum amount of votes that are required for a candidate to be elected. The quota is determined by a formula which basically works out as electorate divded by the number of seats + 1. So for a 4 seater constituency with an electorate of 10,000 voters the quota would be 10,000/4 + 1 or 2,501 votes. Any surplus votes for a candidate are then divided among the other candidates according to what other candidates people voted for down the list. So if Candidate A is elected at the first time of counting with 3,001 votes, then the extra 500 votes are redistributed to other candidates. These 500 votes are also known as transfers.

Electoral counts Each seat in a constituency has to be to be filled by law. So if Candidate A above was elected with 3,001 votes his/her 500 extra votes would be redistributed in a 2nd count. So if Candidate B has 2300 votes and Candidate C has 2250 votes after the 1st count then Candidate A's transfers may bring either B or C up to the Quota. Lets say Candidate B gets 140 votes and Candidate C gets 300 votes from Candidate A. Then Candidate C has the quota and is elected. Candidate B has to go to a 3rd count (or more). Also other candidates who have the smallest amount of votes in these counts are eliminated and their votes redistributed to the other candidates. So say Candidate F has 250 votes but this is the lowest amount of votes of all remaining candidates then he/she is eliminated.

Single voters: Someone who only votes for one candidate only. Also known as a plumper i.e. plumps for one candidate. This kind of vote plays into the hands of bigger parties who have a strong core vote and who vote for their parties candidates all the way down the list to make sure they get in on 2nd, 3rd counts etc. By voting for only one candidate you are letting them have a free run at getting their candidates in on subsequent rounds of voting. If you don't want this to happen, then you may want to consider tactical voting.

Tactical Voting: If you don't want any member of any particular party to be elected then vote against them all the way down the list. Say for example that you don't want any FF or Green candidate to be elected then you make sure you vote all the way down the list against them. In other words vote for all other candidates except them. This makes it harder for them to get elected in subsequent rounds of voting. It applies more to FF in this case as they have more candidates in constituencies than the Greens who only have one candidate per constituency and who rely on transfers to get elected anyway.

So there you have it. I hope it isn't TLDR.

Interesting!!! So there is a way to be heard

Lynnsie

chucken1 wrote: »

I understand why...but :mad::mad::mad:

So here it will look like 'you're damed if you do and damed if you dont'

That's where this comes in...

LostinBlanch wrote: »

Tactical Voting: If you don't want any member of any particular party to be elected then vote against them all the way down the list. Say for example that you don't want any FF or Green candidate to be elected then you make sure you vote all the way down the list against them. In other words vote for all other candidates except them. This makes it harder for them to get elected in subsequent rounds of voting. It applies more to FF in this case as they have more candidates in constituencies than the Greens who only have one candidate per constituency and who rely on transfers to get elected anyway.

amacachi

chucken1 wrote: »

Interesting!!! So there is a way to be heard

That still doesn't change what I said though. YOUR transfers won't go to a candidate who you haven't put a number next to but someone else's could do so.

ilovesleep

Can this thread be stickied across boards please so that people know how to vote.

Tactital voting against FF for me.

phantom_lord

Guide to Ireland’s PR-STV Electoral System:

http://www.environ.ie/en/LocalGovernment/Voting/PublicationsDocuments/FileDownLoad,1895,en.pdf

Wolfe Tone

I think I will only have a no 1 and 2 on my ballot.

deanh

I think a good strategy is to preference vote for, at least, the number of seats in the constituency. I live in a 5 seater, so I tend to vote 1-6. Voting no. 1 only is silly because if your candidate is elected/eliminated in the first count, your vote has no say over remaining seats.

Skid

deanh wrote: »

I think a good strategy is to preference vote for, at least, the number of seats in the constituency. I live in a 5 seater, so I tend to vote 1-6. Voting no. 1 only is silly because if your candidate is elected/eliminated in the first count, your vote has no say over remaining seats.

That doesn't really work, the number of seats isn't based on the number of candidates.

There could be 15 or more candidates for the 5 seats so the 6 you vote for could all be eliminated before the seats are filled.

You should really vote for the candidates you like 1,2,3,4 and so on until you have no preference whatsoever who gets in.

For example, if you vote for candidates 1,2,3,4,5 and 6, the last seat could be between candidates 14 and 15.

Your vote could still be important because a) everyone you voted for has been eliminated or b) your vote has been transferred as part of a surplus.

If you would rather have no.14 instead of no.15 you should vote for him/her.

gbee

chucken1 wrote: »

Thanks! Lets turn this on its head..What if he did make the quota with surplus..Where would the surplus go if hes the only one from his party?

As mentioned it does not necessarily depend on other party candidates. One may vote cross party, indeed many do.

What the party would like is for YOU to vote ONLY for them and all their candidates ~ thus ENSURING one of them [or two of them] make it, even if they did not get first preference votes.

ALL votes count as one vote ~ IMO this wrong as it SHOULD be a second third and fourth [as many as there are candidates if you voted for them all or just the ones you voted for] ~ but under the PR system your second vote transfers as if it were a No1 vote, many people don't understand this and it is why so many second or third preference people get elected on the late counts, possibly even passing people with more 1st Preference votes.

To ensure this does not happen you can FORCE one man one vote by putting your 1 alongside only one candidate [note it MUST be a number and it must start with 1].

deanh

SkidMark wrote: »

That doesn't really work, the number of seats isn't based on the number of candidates.

There could be 15 or more candidates for the 5 seats so the 6 you vote for could all be eliminated before the seats are filled.

You should really vote for the candidates you like 1,2,3,4 and so on until you have no preference whatsoever who gets in.

For example, if you vote for candidates 1,2,3,4,5 and 6, the last seat could be between candidates 14 and 15.

Your vote could still be important because a) everyone you voted for has been eliminated or b) your vote has been transferred as part of a surplus.

If you would rather have no.14 instead of no.15 you should vote for him/her.

Another view. In that case, the simple answer to original post is to vote for all candidates you have a preference for.

gbee

deanh wrote: »

Another view. In that case, the simple answer to original post is to vote for all candidates you have a preference for.

AND be notefull of there they are in the actual ballot paper. A common mistake its to start at the top and go 1,2,3,4 to the end.

You Must pick the candidate you like best and give them 1, their position on the paper could be anywhere, last even.

You also need to be careful about accidentally spoiling your vote, in a 15 candidate paper is might go to a second page or be very long, it's easy to make a mistake and mark two same preference votes, like giving two candidate your 1 [2 or 3 etc].

Skid

deanh wrote: »

Another view. In that case, the simple answer to original post is to vote for all candidates you have a preference for.

Correct - go down the list until you don't care which of the other candidates get elected.

later12

By the way there is a little more to tactical voting than just voting against a candidate all the way down the list.

Firstly, imagine there are seven candidates in my constituency, representing parties A and B, and the likelihood of their election to office are, in this order,

A1
B1
B2
A2
B3
B4
A3

If you really want the A's to win, a good idea might be to start off by voting for A3 and then A2, as opposed to putting A1 at the top, where he will probably end up anyway. Not only is the risk that A3 will be eliminated before B4 diminished (slightly), he will also increase the chances of picking up transfers and staying in the count.

The same principle applies for voting for A2 ahead of A1, even moreso, in fact.