Would Fine Gael really make a difference?

bertie has the answer

Ive been reviewing their website and it doesnt seem they have a coherent solution, and their policies are a bit vague. So whats all the noise about then if they cant come up with a solution, yet criticise the people in government.

I knew a few people who were going to vote FG, but after seen their website have changed their mind. Dont FG even stick to their promises?

darragh16

No...

spank_inferno

The girl we usually use to babysit our kids hasnt worked out great.
The kids hate her, she empties the fridge of food, beats up our cat and smashes up our furniture.

There is another girl nearby who will also babysit.

But..... I dunno..... we're not sure if getting a new baby sitter will improve things??
:rolleyes:

Its a curious logic that crops up in this forum sometimes.

When a party has been in power for so long and has failed so so badly and repeatedly, why oh why would you not replace them?

No one has a crystal ball to determine if FG will do better.
They are unproven in power because they havent had power for a generation!
But I will stick my neck out and say they cant do any worse.

flutered

even if they are 3/4 as bad as the other shower they will be an improvement.

Gregor Samsa

Your analogy needs a bit of refinement:

There's 3 girls nearby that will also babysit. But I've looked at the CV of one of them, the one that most people recommend (although she hasn't baby sat for them in a very long time) and it's all too vague for me to be sure that she won't wreck my house too. I want to get rid of my current baby sitter, but the alternatives don't inspire much confidence.

But, as it happens, I agree with you. FG certainly can't do as bad a job as FF have been doing, even if they haven't thought everything through yet.

sparkling sea

The only thing we know for certain is that the last time we had a FG/Lab coalition they left the country in a better way then they found it.

gcgirl

FF look what they have done Christ even The Inbetweeners would do a better job

Dannyboy83

bertie has the answer wrote: »

Ive been reviewing their website and it doesnt seem they have a coherent solution, and their policies are a bit vague. So whats all the noise about then if they cant come up with a solution, yet criticise the people in government.

I knew a few people who were going to vote FG, but after seen their website have changed their mind. Dont FG even stick to their promises?

Here are a few reasons to give your vote to FG or Labour, rather than Fianna Fail

In October 2007, former Fianna Fail Government Press Secretary Frank Dunlop told the Mahon Tribunal that property developer Owen O’Callaghan paid off a debt of £10,700 for Fianna Fail councillor Colm McGrath when he was facing a court judgment.

In October 2007, a book was published that included a claim that a serving Government Minister has admitted taking cocaine, and that he wasn’t the only one doing it. The Taoiseach Bertie Ahern had made no effort to investigate it.

In September 2007, Fianna Fail TD Michael Collins was found guilty in court of obtaining a tax clearance certificate under false pretences. He had previously made a €130,000 tax settlement arising from a bogus non-resident bank account.

In September 2007, jailed Fianna Fail councillor Michael ‘Stroke’ Fahey had missed six months of council meetings, and by law he should have been deemed to have resigned. He escaped this by asking the council to deem his absence to be ‘due to illness and attendance in Dublin’.

In September 2007, Taoiseach Bertie Ahern, while being questioned at the Mahon Tribunal, accepted that his earlier story that Celia Larkin had made a £30,000 sterling transaction on his behalf could not be correct, unless the bank records were inaccurate.

In September 2007, Taoiseach Bertie Ahern, while being questioned at the Mahon Tribunal, said that he must have given £30,000 to somebody else (to make a transaction that the bank had no record for), but he didn’t know who he gave the money to.

In August 2007, Bertie Ahern appointed as a Senator former Fianna Fail TD Ivor Callely, who had just lost his Dail seat in a general election, and who had resigned as a Junior Minister after a scandal in 2005.

In August 2007, Bertie Ahern appointed as a Senator former Fianna Fail TD John Ellis, who had just lost his Dail seat in a general election, and who had resigned as chair of an Oireachtas committee after a scandal in 1999.

In July 2007 the Standards in Public Office Commission said that Fianna Fail had failed to report a donation in the party’s statutory declarations for 2005.

In June 2007, Taoiseach Bertie Ahern made secret deals, using taxpayers money, with independent TDs to secure their support as Taoiseach. Two of these independent TDs, Beverly Flynn and Michael Lowry, had previously been forced to resign from their parties after scandals.

In June 2007, Fianna Fail changed the law to create three new Junior Ministers with salaries of €150,000 a year. They had previously done this in 1977 and 1980. When Fine Gael did the same in 1995, Fianna Fail called it an abuse of the taxpayer and an act of hypocrisy, and Bertie Ahern vowed to abolish the new posts.

In March 2007, Fianna Fail councillor Michael ‘Stroke’ Fahey was jailed for twelve months after being found guilty of defrauding his own council of €15,000 and falsely implicating an innocent contractor in the crime. The jailed councillor was also chairman of the Limerick Prison visiting committee.

In May 2007, stockbroker Padraic O’Connor said that Bertie Ahern was wrong to say that he had given Ahern £5,000 as a loan from a friend in 1993. O’Connor said he was not a friend of Ahern’s, that he had been asked for a political donation of £5,000, that he had given that on a company cheque, and that he had been given in return a false invoice for consultancy work that had not been done.

In February 2007, Taoiseach Bertie Ahern praised the Moriarty Tribunal for its ‘outstanding work in painstakingly stripping away the layers of secrecy and obscurity surrounding Mr Haughey’s financial affairs and exposing them to public scrutiny.’
(He was quick to reverse those words later when his own antics began to be exposed!)

In December 2006, the Moriarty Tribunal found that former Taoiseach Charles Haughey took payments of €11.56 million, or €45 million in today’s money, between 1979 and 1996, and granted favours in return.

In October 2006, it emerged that Taoiseach Bertie Ahern had bought his house from businessman Michael Wall, who had been at a dinner in Manchester at which Ahern was given £8,000 sterling. When asked why he had not previously said that Wall was at the dinner, Ahern replied that Wall had not eaten the dinner.

In September 2006, Taoiseach Bertie Ahern said that, when he was Minister for Finance, he had unexpectedly received a donation of £8,000 sterling from some millionaires who he had a meal with in Manchester on the night before a Manchester United football match.

In September 2006, Taoiseach Bertie Ahern accepted that he had appointed people who gave him money to State boards, but he insisted that he did not appoint them because they gave him money. He said he had appointed them because they were his friends.

In September 2006, Taoiseach Bertie Ahern said that he had accepted £39,000 from friends, including the brilliantly-named Paddy the Plasterer, in 1993 and 1994. He said it was loans, and that he had tried to pay them back but they had all refused.

In September 2006, when Taoiseach Bertie Ahern was first asked about allegations of receiving from €50,000 and €100,000 from businessmen, he told journalists that a lot of the report was correct but that ‘the figures are off the wall.’ This, of course, was true, because he got some of the money ‘off Michael Wall’.

In December 2005, Fianna Fail Junior Minister Ivor Callely resigned when it emerged that a top construction company had painted his house free of charge, while the company was also doing work for the Eastern Health Board of which Callely was chairperson.

In April 2005, former Fianna Fail Junior Minister for Transport, Jim McDaid, who had led an anti-drink-driving campaign, was arrested after drunkenly driving his car the wrong way up a busy dual carriageway.

In January 2005, former Fianna Fail Justice Minister Ray Burke was jailed for six months for making false tax declarations, breaking a law that he himself had helped to pass. He served four and a half months in Arbour Hill prison.

In May 2004, Fianna Fail expelled Mayo TD Beverly Flynn from the Party. Bertie Ahern said the integrity of the party depended on her expulsion, that Fianna Fail was at a crossroads, and that the party would also have to deal with any other members who transgressed ethics and standards in public life.

In September 2003, Fianna Fail TD Michael Collins resigned from the Parliamentary Party after making a €130,000 tax settlement arising from a bogus non-resident bank account.

In September 2003, Fianna Fail TD GV Wright knocked down a nurse while driving under the influence of alcohol. The nurse’s leg was broken in four places.

In December 2002, former Fianna Fail Government Press Secretary Frank Dunlop told the Flood Tribunal that former Fianna Fail TD Liam Lawlor (who he also knew as ‘Mr Big’) was the first person to tell him that money would have to be paid to councillors in return for their votes.

In November 2002, former Fianna Fail Government press Secretary Frank Dunlop named six Fianna Fail councilors who he bribed to secure the rezoning of land at Carrickmines in south Dublin.

In September 2002, the Flood Tribunal found that former Fianna Fail Justice Minister Ray Burke received corrupt payments, including £125,000 from property developers and £30,000 from the owners of Century Radio.

In September 2002, the Flood Tribunal found that former Fianna Fail Government Press Secretary PJ Mara had failed to co-operate with the Tribunal, by failing to provide details of an overseas account. In the 1980s, in a Hot Press interview, Mara said that his greatest ambition was ‘never to be found out’.

In May 2002, former Fianna Fail Government press Secretary Frank Dunlop said that he paid at least £160,000 to 25 councillors in relation to the redrafting of the Dublin County Council development plan from 1991 to 1993.

In February 2002, former Fianna Fail TD Liam Lawlor was jailed for a third time for contempt of court when he refused to comply with orders of the Flood Tribunal. When the Dail called for his resignation, he was brought to Leinster House in a prison van to speak against the motion. Lawlor had previously chaired the Dail Ethics Committee.

In January 2002, former Fianna Fail TD Liam Lawlor was jailed for a second time for contempt of court when he refused to comply with orders of the Flood Tribunal.

In December 2001, Fianna Fail TD Ned O’Keefe resigned as a Junior Minister. He had voted on a bill about feeding bonemeal to animals, forgetting to inform the Dail that his family was involved in manufacturing the substance.

In April 2001, Fianna Fail TD Beverly Flynn resigned from the Oireachtas Public Accounts Committee. She had lost a libel case that she had taken against RTE, who had correctly reported that she had sold banking products designed to assist tax evaders. After losing the case, she faced a €2million legal bill.

In January 2001, former Fianna Fail TD Liam Lawlor was jailed for contempt of court when he refused to comply with orders of the Flood Tribunal.

In June 2000, Fianna Fail TD Liam Lawlor resigned from the Parliamentary Party after he misled an internal party investigation about a donation that he had got. Lawlor was also chair of the Oireachtas Joint Ethics committee.

In May 2000, Fianna Fail Finance Minister Charlie McCreevy nominated Hugh O’Flaherty to a £147,000 job as Vice President of the European Investment Bank. O’Flaherty was a former High Court judge who had been forced to resign after a scandal the previous year.

In February 2000, Fianna Fail TD Denis Foley resigned from the Parliamentary Party. He had £100,000 in an illegal offshore account. He said that he knew that his account might have been an Ansbacher one, but he had been ‘hoping against hope’ that it was not.

In November 1999, Fianna Fail TD John Ellis resigned as chairperson of the Oireachtas Agriculture Committee. He owed money to farmers, he had £250,000 in debts written off by NIB, and Charles Haughey had given him £26,000 of taxpayers cash to settle other debts.

I think this is just funny so I left it included! - In January 1999, former Fianna Fail Minister Padraig Flynn appeared on the Late Late Show on RTE. Now a European Commissioner, Flynn complained about the difficulties of living on ‘just £100,000 a year’ when he had three houses, housekeepers and various cars to maintain. ‘You should try it,’ he added.

In June 1995, Celia Larkin lodged £11,743.34 into Fianna Fail leader Bertie Ahern’s bank account. Ahern says that £10,000 sterling of this was actually his own money, part of £50,000 that he had earlier withdrawn from his own account and used to buy £30,000 sterling. However, the bank has no record of selling £30,000 sterling to anybody during that period.

In December 1994, Celia Larkin lodged IR£28,772.90 into Fianna Fail leader Bertie Ahern’s bank account. Ahern says that this was £30,000 sterling cash given to him in a briefcase by his soon-to-be landlord, just after he had become Fianna Fail leader and was expected to become Taoiseach However, the amount equates exactly to $45,000 based on bank exchange rates on that date.

http://www.druidschool.com/site/1030100/page/928971

Sulmac

bertie has the answer wrote: »

Ive been reviewing their website and it doesnt seem they have a coherent solution, and their policies are a bit vague. So whats all the noise about then if they cant come up with a solution, yet criticise the people in government.

I knew a few people who were going to vote FG, but after seen their website have changed their mind. Dont FG even stick to their promises?

Their policy documents generally run for dozens of pages and usually include estimated time-scales and costs, they're not 'vague' at all. :rolleyes:

Biggins

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

Here are a few reasons to give your vote to FG or Labour, rather than Fianna Fail...

Those reasons and more are listed here: http://www.unitedpeople.ie/fail.html

SB-08

Economically no, I don't believe they will be elected and suddenly change things for the better. However a fresh Govt with a clear mandate from the people, one that isn't responsible for bankrupting the country, one that will be under huge pressure therefor won't be asleep at the wheel, and one that by any standard has a far more impressive team than the current one is the better option.

I am very much a floating voter and someone who thinks Enda Kenny is an appalling communicator and his lack of knowledge and understanding of the economy is not helpful - however the combination between the the main players in both FG and Labour is clearly a far more promising and creadible team to be running the country than the current shower of professional-wafflers who have shown a contempt for the people of this country with their arrogance and sheer neglect. A cabinet of the likes of Noonan, Rabbitte, Varadkar, Quinn, Bruton, Shatter, O'Reilly, (and to a lesser extent the likes of Burton and Hayes etc) and hopefully a banking expert Peter Mathews if elected is by a mile a more promising option than the current bunch of dummies. And even though I am not a big fan of either Enda or Gilmore at least they will be a far be honorable options as Taoiseach and Tánaiste than Clowen and Coughlan.

Overall the next 5-10 years is going to be very difficult and no matter who is in Govt they will be unpopular for the decisions however I would be far more confident with that team I have already mentioned implimenting the policies and running the country than the current bunch of wasters who are so incompetent it is beyond words.

supersean1999

bertie has the answer wrote: »

Ive been reviewing their website and it doesnt seem they have a coherent solution, and their policies are a bit vague. So whats all the noise about then if they cant come up with a solution, yet criticise the people in government.

I knew a few people who were going to vote FG, but after seen their website have changed their mind. Dont FG even stick to their promises?

your name says it all.

supersean1999

hard to take you serious,

megaten

No, but it's worth a try.

Min

sparkling sea wrote: »

The only thing we know for certain is that the last time we had a FG/Lab coalition they left the country in a better way then they found it.

They had inherited a country which was on a rising tide and only had two years.
One could say the FF/PD government left it even better in 2002.

All parties were talking about growth and spending for the 2007 election, none saw the economic depression.

The EU rules the country.

hallelujajordan

sparkling sea wrote: »

The only thing we know for certain is that the last time we had a FG/Lab coalition they left the country in a better way then they found it.

I'm sick of hearing this argument. . Sean Barrett used it a couple of times on the Frontline last night. . To vote for Fine Gael based on the state of the economy in 1997 is a bit like voting for Fianna Fail because we had 100% employment in 2005. Neither data point is relevant to todays discussion and the environment and personnel on both sides have changed dramatically since then.

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

Here are a few reasons to give your vote to FG or Labour, rather than Fianna Fail

They are reasons not to vote for Fianna Fail (assuming you accept them) . . They could equally be argued to be reasons to vote for Sinn Fein, The United Left Alliance or the Monster Raving Loony party (if they were to field some candidates over here). .

To the OP's question . . I don't believe that Fine Gael will make an immediate difference in policy terms. . Before the most recent British election David Cameron committed to having a budget within 50 days in order to make some fundamental policy changes and he stuck with that. . I have not seen Fine Gael making any such promises and there is no real reason to believe that we won't continue to move in more or less the same direction. . . They talk about how they will renegotiate the EU/IMF deal but does anyone really believe they will get better terms - I dont !

Where I do believe we will see a difference is that we will have a strong and stable government and that is important. This government have struggled to hold together support over the past couple of years and that has made it difficult for them.

Assuming that FG and Labour can negotiate a programme for government and can create a stable partnership it will be easier for them to make the tough decisions and to push them through . . but they will make more or less the same flavour of tough decision that their predecessors made . .

retro2011

problem with fine gael evident nationally and locally they want power for power s sake look at the back biting and fighting in constituencies to get on party ticket. single party fine gael government which is what they are trying to achieve on the sly would dangerously veer us down a right wing road that would skin hard pressed families further:pac:

Liam Byrne

bertie has the answer wrote: »

Ive been reviewing their website and it doesnt seem they have a coherent solution......

I've been reviewing FF's performance and track record and y'know what...... :rolleyes:

Does FG's website say anything about their stance on corruption, or do we have to just use Lowry-now-with-FF as the example ?

Because even if FG were as bad as FF without the corruption, that would be an improvement.

fat__tony

What is it with all these tedious FF trolls starting threads on here over the past few days?

Is it part of FF's election strategy or something?

femur61

I certainly hope so. Enda is a wrong front man, would love to know if he is the manager or is someone else behind him because he has agood team and totally agree with a lot of their policies.

Adrians1

I have never voted fine Gael but I like what they are saying about getting rid of that stupid senate. Also the privatisation of some of those bodies like esb. This needs to be done properly as the telecom business was badly done. I think if they get things right they could set themselfs up as a serious party. The negatives about fine Gael are of coarse their mono tone leader and the labour party. I don't like Gilmore and his whining side kick burton. At this stage we need a change, and I really hope they get things right for the sake of the country. Please !!!!

ISAW

sparkling sea wrote: »

The only thing we know for certain is that the last time we had a FG/Lab coalition they left the country in a better way then they found it.

Were then not on for only 18 months? Is that long enough to judge?
But the time before that didn't they double the national debt?

Compare here to who was in government
http://www.ntma.ie/NationalDebt/historicalData1.php

Note: how much was foreign and how much domestic and compare also the debt level compared to the size of the economy and rate of growth.

We are returning to a significant amount of government spending on servicing interest :
http://www.ntma.ie/NationalDebt/interestCost.php

I would hope reducing this would be a priority for FG and they not make the spending mistakes that Labour might goad them into.

See the thing is the economy is doing okay in fact very good e.g exports, trade growth. we are just crippled with this debt caused by speculation and not just by property developers or fund managers taking a punt. We all bought into it! Dont blame whatever government for lumping it on all of us. Blame them for not tackling the big boys as well yes but don't say "leave me alone" if you bought into it. Whoever gets in needs to bury the worship of Wisteria Lane materialism. But I doubt that will happen because some think increased consumerism is the way out and others want even more money spent on public spending.

scr123

fat__tony wrote: »

What is it with all these tedious FF trolls starting threads on here over the past few days?

Is it part of FF's election strategy or something?

I started a thread some months ago asking whats on offer from FG and Labour and got a 100% blank response.

Message boards are dominated 99% by ABFF brigade and the humble number of FF support posts are treated as trolls. This is of course a form of bullying by people who are nothing but political bigots.
The question "Would FG really make a difference" is very much a valid question, likewise if Labour were asked. However, a casual glance at threads challenging the ABFF to produce real evidence they have something to offer will show answers that defy the challenge and are just more ranting and raving against FF.
What I find really sad is that internet message boards should be an ideal way of promoting serious discussion but they fail miserably and the only purpose they serve is to give bigots a platform to spew their hatred.
The real truth is that if the ABFF had a trace of confidence in their political and economic beliefs they would be placing them before message board users for discussion

freewheeler

scr123 wrote: »

I started a thread some months ago asking whats on offer from FG and Labour and got a 100% blank response.

Message boards are dominated 99% by ABFF brigade and the humble number of FF support posts are treated as trolls. This is of course a form of bullying by people who are nothing but political bigots.
The question "Would FG really make a difference" is very much a valid question, likewise if Labour were asked. However, a casual glance at threads challenging the ABFF to produce real evidence they have something to offer will show answers that defy the challenge and are just more ranting and raving against FF.
What I find really sad is that internet message boards should be an ideal way of promoting serious discussion but they fail miserably and the only purpose they serve is to give bigots a platform to spew their hatred.
The real truth is that if the ABFF had a trace of confidence in their political and economic beliefs they would be placing them before message board users for discussion

I actually thought that FF could not drop any further in my estimation..how wrong i was! The events of the last few hours alone mark a new low for Cowen & co..they make me ashamed to call myself an Irish..traitors all..may we never see their like again! :mad:

danbohan

sparkling sea wrote: »

The only thing we know for certain is that the last time we had a FG/Lab coalition they left the country in a better way then they found it.

which was not very hard

danbohan

freewheeler wrote: »

I actually thought that FF could not drop any further in my estimation..how wrong i was! The events of the last few hours alone mark a new low for Cowen & co..they make me ashamed to call myself an Irish..traitors all..may we never see their like again! :mad:

.may we never see their like again!

ogh we will , the same gene pool of idiocy was there in the 30s 40s 50s 60s 70s 80s 90s , and somewhere in Ireland their are unborn clowen , kenny , and gilmore clones to create a mess in 2055

scr123

freewheeler wrote: »

I actually thought that FF could not drop any further in my estimation..how wrong i was! The events of the last few hours alone mark a new low for Cowen & co..they make me ashamed to call myself an Irish..traitors all..may we never see their like again! :mad:

twas right again so I was, nothing but hatred for FF

freewheeler

danbohan wrote: »

.may we never see their like again!

ogh we will , the same gene pool of idiocy was there in the 30s 40s 50s 60s 70s 80s 90s , and somewhere in Ireland their are unborn clowen , kenny , and gilmore clones to create a mess in 2055

I will refrain (for the moment) adding Kenny & Gilmore to that list as they are not resposible for the current fiasco.I should also add that yes..gombeens like Cowen & co will always exist however surely the electorate need to
remember the shame heaped upon us by their loathsome party and vote accordingly?

freewheeler

scr123 wrote: »

twas right again so I was, nothing but hatred for FF

You are right for once..that is exactly what it is!Surely even you die-hards must be ashamed of your beloved party today?

bullpost

FF have presided over a catastrophic time in the history of this fair land.

They have engineered an economy which has basically bankrupted this country and mortgaged its future.

As a first step to recovery they need to be voted out. Who's best to replace them comes next but first things first.

Get them out.

Fitzerb

spank_inferno wrote: »

The girl we usually use to babysit our kids hasnt worked out great.
The kids hate her, she empties the fridge of food, beats up our cat and smashes up our furniture.

There is another girl nearby who will also babysit.

But..... I dunno..... we're not sure if getting a new baby sitter will improve things??
:rolleyes:

Its a curious logic that crops up in this forum sometimes.

When a party has been in power for so long and has failed so so badly and repeatedly, why oh why would you not replace them?

Have you given consideration to the possibility that the problem with the babysitter could be caused by the behaviour of the kids ?

As you say, its a cutious logic

Brenireland

fat__tony wrote: »

What is it with all these tedious FF trolls starting threads on here over the past few days?

Is it part of FF's election strategy or something?

tedious FF trolls?