Grave ownership

maiden

Hi all,

When my mothers father died in the sixties, my mam purchased a double plot, he was buried in it and so was her mother a few years back.

Everything my granny had, house and contents etc was inherited by one of her sons (my mothers brother) including the receipt for the grave.

My mam went to the undertakers where she bought the grave and now has a copy of the receipt which has her name on it.

My mam wants to be buried in this grave as she bought it, so owns it. The family are saying she doesnt.

My question is, does she officially own the grave and can she be buried there no matter who disputes it?????

coylemj

Whether she can be buried there is down to whoever owns and runs the graveyard, regardless of who has what piece of paper.

You say that her brother 'inherited' the receipt, this is just a piece of paper which has no intrinsic value and so isn't capable of being 'inherited'. It is a record of a transaction, not a bearer certificate i.e. having that piece of paper in your hand doesn't make you the owner of the plot but obviously your uncle thinks it does.

Your mother needs to talk to the operators of the graveyard (probably Clare Co. Co. given your location), my guess is that if she paid for the plot then she has control over who gets buried there.

Hooch

You need advise from a solicitor......anything involving family needs to be carefully looked at.....

dermot_sheehan

coylemj wrote: »

Whether she can be buried there is down to whoever owns and runs the graveyard, regardless of who has what piece of paper.

You say that her brother 'inherited' the receipt, this is just a piece of paper which has no intrinsic value and so isn't capable of being 'inherited'. It is a record of a transaction, not a bearer certificate i.e. having that piece of paper in your hand doesn't make you the owner of the plot but obviously your uncle thinks it does.

Your mother needs to talk to the operators of the graveyard (probably Clare Co. Co. given your location), my guess is that if she paid for the plot then she has control over who gets buried there.

Not exactly,

a right to burial is a personal property right created by the cemetary clauses act 1847 which can be assigned by deed or bequeathed.

The receipt is therefore important as it shows title to this burial right.

maiden

Mam has a photocopy of the original receipt with her name, date, money paid and what she bought etc. The undertaker is still alive and rems the tranaction as he knows the family.

My mother has left the grave to me in her will, because her instructions are to be buried there. But her family are against it.

Has she willed me an argument???? Really would like to know because if anything happens her the last thing i want is the **** hitting the fan during the funeral!!!!!

My non legal take is, she bought it, its hers and she has a right to be buried there.

coylemj

gabhain7 wrote: »

Not exactly,

a right to burial is a personal property right created by the cemetary clauses act 1847 which can be assigned by deed or bequeathed.

The receipt is therefore important as it shows title to this burial right.

Accepted, and the mother's photocopy of the original receipt would appear to bear out the OP's assertion that the mother is and always has been the owner of the grave.

OP, your mother needs to establish with the council if she is registered as the owner of the grave. If she is then the plot was not your granny's to leave to anyone and your mother is still the owner. Ask them to write a letter to your mother confirming that she owns the grave in order to clarify things.

If you can't get a straight answer from the co. co. then she will need to talk to a solicitor.

evilpaperbag

As I work in a funeral home I thought I would comment! If as you said you purchased the grave then your name will be on the grave deed and therefore you have full rights to this grave.*

The fact that your parents are buried here does not entitle your brothers or sisters to any ownership. As for leaving it in a will for your daughter, the grave would be automatically transferred to your nearest surviving relative anyway.

Also I'm not sure what u mean by receipts of the grave. Do you mean the actual grave deed or the receipt from the funeral home? if you don't have the grave deed I would advise you to get a copy of it if any problems arise within your family you can show proof that the grave is in your own name. These situations can get messy during funeral arrangements so it'll be good to have it at hand.

Hope this helps!

Living Off The Splash

If there is no deed to the grave, where do you get a copy? Would the funeral home keep the deed or would they give the deed to the purchaser?

arthur daly

maiden wrote: »

Mam has a photocopy of the original receipt with her name, date, money paid and what she bought etc. The undertaker is still alive and rems the tranaction as he knows the family.

My mother has left the grave to me in her will, because her instructions are to be buried there. But her family are against it.

Has she willed me an argument???? Really would like to know because if anything happens her the last thing i want is the **** hitting the fan during the funeral!!!!!

My non legal take is, she bought it, its hers and she has a right to be buried there.

I would follow your mother's wishes,if the rest don't like it so what?
Why should you be bullied into doing what they want.your mother has the choice I know a relation of mine left it as part of their will all the funeral arrangements down to the song been played

nuac

Mod
Leaving this open for general discussion only, remembering the forum rule against legal advice

Peregrinus

Living Off The Splash wrote: »

If there is no deed to the grave, where do you get a copy? Would the funeral home keep the deed or would they give the deed to the purchaser?

Skip the funeral home and go straight to the cemetery. They'll have a record of who holds the rights to this particular plot.

From what is said in the OP, it's likely that the OP's mother holds the rights to this plot. Even if someone else has physical possession of the original receipt/certificate/piece of paper/other document, that document likely confirms that the OP's mother has the rights to the plot.

Now, this is entirely hypothetical, but a problem could arise like this.

Jack dies. A grave plot is bought in the name of Mary and Jack is buried in it. Some years later, Jack's wife Mary dies, and she is buried in it.

Jack and Mary's son John is the executor of both Jack and Mary's estates, and among the papers he has received in that capacity is a certificate showing that the rights to the plot were bought by, and belong to, Mary.

John says that the "Mary" named in the certificate is his deceased mother; that she bought the plot and that as her executor and (let's assume this is the case) residuary legatee he now controls it.

John's sister, also Mary, says no, she bought the plot when Jack died, and the "Mary" named in the certificate is in fact her.

If John and Mary can't sort this out by agreement and it goes to law, the question will be whether the evidence shows the Mary Snr. or Mary Jnr. bought the plot. If all other things are equal, the fact that the certificate was found among Mary Snr.'s papers might tip the balance in favour of the view that Mary Snr. bought it. Or their might be evidence to show that Mary Jnr. bought it.

But this problem only arises if the daughter and mother have the same name. If they have different names, and it's the daughter's name that's on the certificate, then it looks open-and-shut to me.

P. Breathnach

I'd like to raise a quibble with Perigrinus's comprehensive answer.

Surely the source of funds should be considered. If Mary purchased the plot from her own funds, then she owns the grave, and when the time comes, her executor can have her buried there.

If, however, Mary was funded by her father's estate, either before the purchase or by way of reimbursement, then the grave belongs to the successor in title of her father's estate.

My understanding is that a grave often ends up as an undistributed asset of an estate - essentially held in trust by an executor or administrator. With the passage of time, an executor or administrator might simply forget about it, and there is a high probability that when he or she dies, the ownership of the grave is virtually abandoned.

NUTLEY BOY

In answer to the point about being bequeathed an argument the real problem will be for the executor.

It is the executor's obligation to give effect to the testator's wishes and that includes the issue of funeral / testamentary expenses and issues. Where a testator has been so specific as to direct interment in a particular grave I would expect that to be a rigid obligation on the executor - entitlement to interment in the particular grave being assumed.

Following from that I would regard possession of the grave title deed as vital evidence of authority of ownership, the entitlement to direct interment of the testator in it and subsequent entitlement to bequeath it.

As has been said above mere possession of the receipt and or the deed does not confer or presume title.

Peregrinus

NUTLEY BOY wrote: »

In answer to the point about being bequeathed an argument the real problem will be for the executor.

It is the executor's obligation to give effect to the testator's wishes and that includes the issue of funeral / testamentary expenses and issues. Where a testator has been so specific as to direct interment in a particular grave I would expect that to be a rigid obligation on the executor - entitlement to interment in the particular grave being assumed.

But you can’t just assume entitlement, is the point. You actually have to be entitled.

Suppose - using the names from my earlier example - Mary Jnr dies, and leaves a will directing that she be buried in the plot which already contains her father and her mother.

When making the will, Mary have beleived that she was the rightsholder to the plot concerned. Or, she may have thought that she held the rights jointly with her brother John, and she may have taken his agreement for granted. Or, she may have thought that John held the rights (as executor of his parents, or as their residuary legatee) but she may have taken his agreement for granted. Or, she may have known that John would object, and she put this clause in her will in order to strengthen the resolve of her executor to overcome or circumvent John’s objections. Or, she may not have thought about the matter of rights at all.

In short, the mere inclusion of this clause in the will is not particularly strong evidence that Mary believed she had a right to be buried in the plot. The clause is consistent with a variety of beliefs. And, even if it is evidence that Mary believed she had a right, it doesn’t necessarily follow that she actually did have a right. Her belief could have been incorrect.

NUTLEY BOY wrote: »

Following from that I would regard possession of the grave title deed as vital evidence of authority of ownership, the entitlement to direct interment of the testator in it and subsequent entitlement to bequeath it.

As has been said above mere possession of the receipt and or the deed does not confer or presume title.

Maybe I’m misreading you, but are you not contradicting yourself here? Possession of the grave document is “vital evidence of authority of ownership”, but mere possession of the grave document “does not confer or presume title”?

For what it’s worth, I think possession of the document is irrelevant. What matters is what the document says. If it shows that Mary Jnr is the rightsholder, then it shows that no matter who happens to be holding it.

I take P. Breathnach’s point about the source of the funds. I think if the grave document names Mary as the rightsholder, then she’s in pole position. But John could try to show that she holds it as trustee for Jack’s estate by proving that the funds to purchase the grave plot came from Jack’s estate. Depending on how long ago Jack died, it might be difficult to show that now. Plus, you’d have to ask why, if the estate was purchasing the grave, it was purchased in Mary’s name rather than in the name of the estate or the executor. (This last problem is diminished if Mary was the executor, of course.)

If it is shown that the grave belonged to Jack’s estate and is an undistributed asset of Jack’s estate, it doesn’t follow that Jack’s executor can decide who can be buried there. Jack’s executor - let’s assume it’s John - is under a continuing obligation to distribute it to those entitled (who are likely to be Jack’s residuary legatees). They get to decide who can be buried there. Mary, of course, may be one of Jack’s residuary legatees.

NUTLEY BOY

We are actually in agreement. Mere possession of the deed is, as you say, not the point. My point is that the actual legal right is what counts. The title deed would be supporting / corroborative evidence of the established title.

Living Off The Splash

I wonder who paid for the Headstone plus inscription?

microgirl

Sorry to resurrect an old thread (um, bad-taste pun not intended), but am I just being stupid/naive or has everyone else missed something I'd assume pertinent? In the OP the, um, OP states that her mam bought a double plot when her (the mam's) dad died. Years later, the grandmother died and was also buried there. Now things have come to a head because the OP's mam, the original purchaser, wants to be buried there and is claiming the right due to being the owner.

But is it not a completely and utterly moot point, due to *two* people already being buried in the *double* plot?

CIARAN_BOYLE

double plot refers to width. multiple people can be buried in a single plot.

boardsuser1

Question regarding graves and ownership.

Myself and my O/H lost a baby last weekend almost 12 weeks into the pregnancy.

I am looking to bury in the graveyard where my grandmother is as i was raised by her.

There are 3 people in the grave, most recently opened in 2011.

My uncle to the best of my knowledge has the deeds, we don't get along whatsoever.

Can i approach the county council to open it or what is the circumstances behind it?

infogiver

KC161 wrote: »

Question regarding graves and ownership.

Myself and my O/H lost a baby last weekend almost 12 weeks into the pregnancy.

I am looking to bury in the graveyard where my grandmother is as i was raised by her.

There are 3 people in the grave, most recently opened in 2011.

My uncle to the best of my knowledge has the deeds, we don't get along whatsoever.

Can i approach the county council to open it or what is the circumstances behind it?

Sorry for your troubles.
Have you or are you going to engage an undertaker to arrange a funeral/burial service?
If you have, the undertaker will look after all these things for you.
In the town where I live undertakers take care of little children's burial arrangements with no charge.

boardsuser1

infogiver wrote: »

Sorry for your troubles.
Have you or are you going to engage an undertaker to arrange a funeral/burial service?
If you have, the undertaker will look after all these things for you.
In the town where I live undertakers take care of little children's burial arrangements with no charge.

Thank you.

I wasn't aware that they deal with these type of burials?

I will certainly look into it once the fetus is returned to us.

CIARAN_BOYLE

KC161 wrote: »

Question regarding graves and ownership.

Myself and my O/H lost a baby last weekend almost 12 weeks into the pregnancy.

I am looking to bury in the graveyard where my grandmother is as i was raised by her.

There are 3 people in the grave, most recently opened in 2011.

My uncle to the best of my knowledge has the deeds, we don't get along whatsoever.

Can i approach the county council to open it or what is the circumstances behind it?

Sorry for your loss.

If your uncle owns the grave, (has the deeds and owns them) he owns the grave and you can't bury anyone in the grave without his consent.

boardsuser1

CIARAN_BOYLE wrote: »

Sorry for your loss.

If your uncle owns the grave, (has the deeds and owns them) he owns the grave and you can't bury anyone in the grave without his consent.

Even though the legal maximum is 3? And he has to be buried elsewhere?

Something the size of a shoe box can't be interred there without his consent?

Flam1n1us

Living Off The Splash wrote: »

If there is no deed to the grave, where do you get a copy? Would the funeral home keep the deed or would they give the deed to the purchaser?

any information on this? I have the same question

Peregrinus

KC161 wrote: »

Even though the legal maximum is 3? And he has to be buried elsewhere?

Something the size of a shoe box can't be interred there without his consent?

You can ask, but I'm pretty sure the cemetery authorities won't allow the grave to be opened without his consent.

It's worth talking to them, though; they may have other suggestions to offer. It might be possible to scatter cremated remains on on hear the grave, if that would give you some consolation.

Peregrinus

Living Off The Splash wrote: »

If there is no deed to the grave, where do you get a copy? Would the funeral home keep the deed or would they give the deed to the purchaser?

Generally when you take out a grave plot they give you a certificate or deed as evidence that it's your plot.

They also keep their own records showing who took out the plot and who the certificate was issued to, so if the certificate is lost - which does happen - you can go back to them.

Mere possession of the certificate doesn't amount to ownership of the plot. The certificate has the name of the owner in it, so if Joe is in possession of a certificate shown that Francie is the owner, then Francie is the owner, not Joe. If Francie has died, then the rights to the grave-plot form part of his estate.