price of 200sqm passive house

MungoMan

i only found out about passive houses recently.

ive read enough about them to know that i want one.
It seems to me that to build a house which is not passive is a wasted opportunity.....

i read that in germany, a passive house typically only costs 5 or 6% more than a non passive house
can i get one in ireland for 5 or 6% more than a conventional build ?

i know from talking to local building contractors that they have no experience in building to this standard.

Whats a good strategy to get a good value passive house in Ireland ?

im thinking (although im not sure if this is a good idea) about researching German or Swedish factory built houses which are designed passive....I would have to deal with the logistics of importing it here, and also who would build it.

I saw Grand Designs where an English couple bought a HUF house and it was erected by a team of Germans, it wasn't passive.........I'd be thinking about doing something similar, although HUF (if they do passive) would be out of my budget.

galwaytt

MungoMan wrote: »

i only found out about passive houses recently.

ive read enough about them to know that i want one.
It seems to me that to build a house which is not passive is a wasted opportunity.....

i read that in germany, a passive house typically only costs 5 or 6% more than a non passive house
can i get one in ireland for 5 or 6% more than a conventional build ?

i know from talking to local building contractors that they have no experience in building to this standard.

Whats a good strategy to get a good value passive house in Ireland ?

im thinking (although im not sure if this is a good idea) about researching German or Swedish factory built houses which are designed passive....I would have to deal with the logistics of importing it here, and also who would build it.

I saw Grand Designs where an English couple bought a HUF house and it was erected by a team of Germans, it wasn't passive.........I'd be thinking about doing something similar, although HUF (if they do passive) would be out of my budget.

Sorry to burst your bubble, but I'm afraid 5% wont' go anywhere near the extra cost of passive - more like 20%. In Germany a 'std' house costs a lot more than here anyway, that's why the difference would be smaller.

slave1

This article may interest you

heinbloed

im thinking (although im not sure if this is a good idea) about researching German or Swedish factory built houses which are designed passive....I would have to deal with the logistics of importing it here, and also who would build it.

Companies working on international scale don't need help with logistics.
They offer it as part of their service.

Compare like with like, looking at the 'std.' Irish home and comparing it with a PH is far off the line. Compare a curragh with a cruise liner.

galwaytt

MungoMan wrote: »

........i know from talking to local building contractors that they have no experience in building to this standard.

im thinking (although im not sure if this is a good idea) about researching German or Swedish factory built houses which are designed passive....I would have to deal with the logistics of importing it here, and also who would build it.

...you've hit the nail on the head with the former point. You do not want to be the training ground for someone - if they themselves don't understand what you're trying to achieve, well.........ymmv and all that.

....the latter point I'd say this: the best built system in the world, is useless if the assembly of it on site isn't to the same standard, and preferably by the actual manufacturer, not sub-contractor's. I'm quite sure German's and Swedes will quote you to do so, but it will come back to price.

The other thing I'd say too, is that the phrase 'Passive House' is beginning to slip into the vernacular like 'Hoover' ...........and whilst those of who build may know it's a building with 'x' performance/properties, many aspiring home-builders think it's something else. Example: we built a lovely house for a lady, and she fitted GSHP, Solar, MHRV. Then, add 1 x open fire and 1 x stove The lady had turf to burn, and she wasn't not having it in the house ! The kicker was the back door, though. A half-door What the MHRV etc will make of it, and how it'll affect things on those days when it's open is.......interesting ! Like I said: it's what the lady wanted.

No6

Its a bit of a how long is a piece of string question but if you get someone to design your house who knows what they are doing and then get contractors who have built passive housese before and there are a few of them then you may be able to get the price differential down to around 10%

jippers87

Take a look at www.scanhome.ie

They have offices near Loughrea, in Galway and seem pretty good. They have information on passive homes and prices to be expected.

They even provide tips on helping to make a standard home more passive.

Good luck!

whelzer

OP I'm getting a passive extension built on my 1920s dublin house - its about 70% complete. The rest of house is being rennovated "close" to passive levels. The builder has years of experience of this type of work and new builds. I'll PM you their details. Your welcome to come take a look "on site" (I hate that term - its my house!), if you feel like it..

bruschi

does anyone know how many buildings in Ireland already built to passivhaus certificates? not eco passive, or equivalent, but to the proper passivhaus cert in Germany.

as Galway tt says, it will become like hoover, jeep etc.

sas

bruschi wrote: »

does anyone know how many buildings in Ireland already built to passivhaus certificates? not eco passive, or equivalent, but to the proper passivhaus cert in Germany.

I believe there are 6 certified now. There are many under construction with the aim of certification, including my own.

I may change my tune once we're occupying the house, but as it stands I would tell anyone who isn't able to afford to pay for the very best experience to run as fast as you can away from it.

My brother in law has a 3250sq ft house. In PH terms the design is a disaster, 400 sq foot feature window facing north for example! He has 90 m2 of bog standard double glazing which was installed for 24k. I have 60m2 of PH certified windows costing 48k! It was occupied in Feb last year. It's a TF building 200mm of cellulose insulation in the walls, 400mm cellulose in a cold attic. Good materials were bought for airtightness, they were installed by himself but money ran out so he never did a pressure test i.e. it may be very airtight, it may not. Bog standard foundation detail with all the cold bridges. 9 ft ceiling in 70% of the house, 12 ft ceiling in the rest. Basic HRV set up. 2 tanks of oil since Feb and the house is always very comfortable, I've visited it quite a few times as I'm interested in this.

I said to the missus on several occasions since both famillies started their builds that one of us was going to be very sorry. Right now it's looking highly likely to be us i.e. the savings on heating etc. may simply not be there.

I based my decision to go passiv on my experiences in appallingly built estate homes. A well built with traditional details home may well perform to an acceptable level.

A person I've grown to know very well is due to move into his close to certified home in April. He is of the same opinion, run a mile!

However, I truly hope to be wrong in time as I'd hate to feel that all the money was wasted. Be pragmatic and be careful about getting swept along with the enthusiasm of people promoting PH.

bruschi

sas wrote: »

I believe there are 6 certified now. There are many under construction with the aim of certification, including my own.

I may change my tune once we're occupying the house, but as it stands I would tell anyone who isn't able to afford to pay for the very best experience to run as fast as you can away from it.

My brother in law has a 3250sq ft house. In PH terms the design is a disaster, 400 sq foot feature window facing north for example! He has 90 m2 of bog standard double glazing which was installed for 24k. I have 60m2 of PH certified windows costing 48k! It was occupied in Feb last year. It's a TF building 200mm of cellulose insulation in the walls, 400mm cellulose in a cold attic. Good materials were bought for airtightness, they were installed by himself but money ran out so he never did a pressure test i.e. it may be very airtight, it may not. Bog standard foundation detail with all the cold bridges. 9 ft ceiling in 70% of the house, 12 ft ceiling in the rest. Basic HRV set up. 2 tanks of oil since Feb and the house is always very comfortable, I've visited it quite a few times as I'm interested in this.

I said to the missus on several occasions since both famillies started their builds that one of us was going to be very sorry. Right now it's looking highly likely to be us i.e. the savings on heating etc. may simply not be there.

I based my decision to go passiv on my experiences in appallingly built estate homes. A well built with traditional details home may well perform to an acceptable level.

A person I've grown to know very well is due to move into his close to certified home in April. He is of the same opinion, run a mile!

However, I truly hope to be wrong in time as I'd hate to feel that all the money was wasted. Be pragmatic and be careful about getting swept along with the enthusiasm of people promoting PH.

in regards to cost, do you know what yours getting the cert will come in at? is it direct labour or have you contracted it? its good that someone can point out the OP's figures of an extra 5% being wrong, which I expect to be way more than 5% on a standard build.

there is a lot of hype about passivhaus, and I've seen one project which is way way overbudget and it shouldnt be, just because of it. the returns from it just dont seem to be worth the extra outlay

sas

bruschi wrote: »

in regards to cost, do you know what yours getting the cert will come in at? is it direct labour or have you contracted it? its good that someone can point out the OP's figures of an extra 5% being wrong, which I expect to be way more than 5% on a standard build.

there is a lot of hype about passivhaus, and I've seen one project which is way way overbudget and it shouldnt be, just because of it. the returns from it just dont seem to be worth the extra outlay

About 1100 per m2 to builders finish. Direct labour! In order to go direct labour I've had to run the build at a crawl. The last thing I need is to have 3 trades on site simultaneously for 3 days in winter when I'm in work. I could walk in a saturday morning and find all sorts of mistakes, very genuine but still expensive mistakes. If we hold to schedule the house will have taken 2 years start to finish.

bruschi

sas wrote: »

About 110 per m2 to builders finish. Direct labour! In order to go direct labour I've had to run the build at a crawl. The last thing I need is to have 3 trades on site simultaneously for 3 days in winter when I'm in work. I could walk in a saturday morning and find all sorts of mistakes, very genuine but still expensive mistakes. If we hold to schedule the house will have taken 2 years start to finish.

I'm assuming thats feet, or else a zero is missing, otherwise I'm going to build a passivhaus in the morning! :pac:

thats not bad though in fairness, although very time consuming. fair play to you for going for it anyway, I know I wouldnt have had the time or money or drive to try achieve something like that. hard to get those certs with all the paperwork required, but at least it will be a unique type build.

the thing I dont get is the 'passive houses' being marketed, but yet there are so few actually certified, with your assumption of 6 in the whole country. I had thought it was as low as that, if not lower alright, just showing that it is far from common and hard to get contractors locally of any sort with good experience in it.

galwaytt

sas wrote: »

II may change my tune once we're occupying the house, but as it stands I would tell anyone who isn't able to afford to pay for the very best experience to run as fast as you can away from it.

I based my decision to go passiv on my experiences in appallingly built estate homes. A well built with traditional details home may well perform to an acceptable level.

A person I've grown to know very well is due to move into his close to certified home in April. He is of the same opinion, run a mile!

However, I truly hope to be wrong in time as I'd hate to feel that all the money was wasted. Be pragmatic and be careful about getting swept along with the enthusiasm of people promoting PH.

Hi sas - sorry to hear about your experience, but I do think you're right. In this market, I think the middle ground is not a bad place to be. And middle, to me, is the 35 - 48kW mark. YMMV and all that.

If I may, below is the text if an email conversation on the subject, which I'm pasting in below. It's not 'certified' science, just an attempt at common sense reasoning, and it's not a dig at PH, but it's an attempt to open up the debate on what's achievable, within given means. Even watching Duncan on TV last night, where he was talking to the pensioner burning 'smokey' coal - and wondering why, the pensioner said he couldn't afford the smokeless stuff. So we have to live within our means......

Anyway, a copy'n'paste extract (modified), as follows:

I suppose the issue of what’s ‘passive’ and what’s not is the issue. It’s kind of like the word ‘Hoover’ has worked it’s way into the vernacular. A lot of people say ‘passive’, but what they really mean is ‘efficient’.

Attached is a ‘typical’ energy costs sheet, showing 4 specifications of houses, and using a 148 sq m footprint ......select fuel, and you get an idea of annual heating costs. Fwiw, the house baseline (88.5kW) is based on an actual BER report for a real life, masonry house, so it’s a realistic figure. The 48kW house is based on an actual .....house that also has a certified BER. And of course we have he PH value of 15kW as we know.

In the example shown, a ‘true’ PH house will cost very little: € 184 p.a.

The 48kW house .....and so the energy bill there is € 589 p.a.

So, €589 - €184= €405, p.a. in fuel savings.

All good


Caveat on the next bit: it assumes many things.

Say, a ‘true’ PH house costs 10% more, to build (anecdotally it can be more).....then using a basic of €1100/sq m, very approximately, a PH house will cost an extra € 16,280 to build. So, dividing the €16280 extra build cost by the €405 p.a. annual fuel savings, means the ‘true’ PH house will recoup the cost in…………40 years. Let’s say fuel bills go mad, and it takes less………say 30 years. Or 20. Either way.......it's long........

Another factor of course, is that the extra build cost of €16,280 has to come from somewhere, and if it’s the bank, than you’ll find (using the AIB online mortgage calculator today……)…that it actually cost’s you €21,840 extra over the life of the mortgage. That’s an extra €5560 in interest alone. Once again, divide by our friend, the annual fuel saving of €405, and you find……that’s another 13.7 years, just to cover the interest……….

You can amend those sums to be whatever you want, but (fundamental) differences will remain, and you need to think about those.

Does this mean you shouldn’t build a true PH house ? No, certainly not, as true PH (can) bring other benefits in terms of comfort, health, etc., and yes, no bills is very, very attractive. It just means to make sure the eyes are open before you start. If after all that deliberation, it 'stacks up', then yes, build a PH.

Of course, if you don’t change your car once, for just one ‘cycle’, in your lifetime, you’ll recoup all the extra cost anyway !!,



Er, discuss ? (confused? I think I am !! )

Look at it this way: with a B1 rating achievable for €750 sq m, I think it's good value. In a 100 sq m 3-bed semi-, that'd be approx €460 p.a. in fuel. What do ye think ?

bruschi

galwaytt wrote: »

Er, discuss ? (confused? I think I am !! )

Look at it this way: with a B1 rating achievable for €750 sq m, I think it's good value. In a 100 sq m 3-bed semi-, that'd be approx €460 p.a. in fuel. What do ye think ?

I get what you are saying on it all, and would definitley agree. for the extra cost in building such a house, I dont think the long term savings are worth it.

in similar circumstances, I was asked why I was putting in geothermal and UFH at expense of rads and oil, and it was probably a difference of €10k to do this. but I would value this more essential, and not even in recouping the savings in bills down the road, but just knowing that there is no dependancy on oil when we dont know how that will be in 20 years time.

it is extremley hard to get a1 rated houses in Ireland, and the cost in pushing them up that extra grade point or 2 is massive in respect to the difference in ratings.

sas

galwaytt wrote: »

Hi sas - sorry to hear about your experience, but I do think you're right. In this market, I think the middle ground is not a bad place to be. And middle, to me, is the 35 - 48kW mark. YMMV and all that.

We're grand. I should say that as it stands the extra build cost isn't going to cripple us fortunately.
Plus I do love the windows I've ordered, they are effectively a beautiful piece of furniture.
I've enjoyed alot of the experience too. Met some really great people in the trades e.g. I was genuinely sorry the day my block layer picked up his mixer. Great guy, no fuss, good work.

I set 1 flag in the ground when I started this and that was that I would be honest with my experience. If I regret it I will state that. I will state what I would do differently. That way at least someone else can take what I've learned and decide for themselves.

slave1

sas wrote: »

I set 1 flag in the ground when I started this and that was that I would be honest with my experience. If I regret it I will state that. I will state what I would do differently. That way at least someone else can take what I've learned and decide for themselves.

Quite an admirable trait, so easy to join a punch drunk wagon that justifies every personal decision even when not the best, thus perpetuating further potential 'mistakes'.

MungoMan

sas wrote: »

I believe there are 6 certified now. There are many under construction with the aim of certification, including my own.

You aim to get certification.......I'm just trying to understand a few things.

Did you start out with a passive design using the PHPP software ?

Would I be correct in saying that if you build your house exactly according to spec, and the workmanship, airtightness is to the level required, you are certain to get certification...... what factors would deny you certification (if you started out with a passive design) ?

You went direct labour....did the guys you employed have knowledge and experience of building a certified passive house ? Did they have to build to a level of detail better than they usually do ?

sas

MungoMan wrote: »

Did you start out with a passive design using the PHPP software ?

We designed a box of a house with the basic principles of a passive house in mind. The design was then validated in the PHPP that if a certain specification is used, the house would indeed satisfy the PHPP and could obtain certification. Assumptions were made at this stage however that are as yet to be validated.

MungoMan wrote: »

Would I be correct in saying that if you build your house exactly according to spec, and the workmanship, airtightness is to the level required, you are certain to get certification...... what factors would deny you certification (if you started out with a passive design) ?

This is my understanding.

MungoMan wrote: »

You went direct labour....did the guys you employed have knowledge and experience of building a certified passive house ? Did they have to build to a level of detail better than they usually do ?

The only people involved or to be involved in my home that had any PH experience are the external insulation contractor, the window supplier and the airtightness installer that I will use.

The detailing is being handled by myself. I've spent 4 years to date on forums trying to develop the knowledge. It's a constant struggle and the primary reason that I said to "run a mile". I've depended on the architect tech. so much to bounce ideas off. I've obtained advice on forums from people too which has directly contributed to my home. My home was designed to be easy to build and it's still been a challenge.

The level of detail relative to typical sites varies by build spec.

My home is regular block on the flat with external insulation.

Take the block layers job. No dpcs, no cills, no insulation and no wall ties. His job was easier than usual.

The plasterers only difference is that they must plaster to the floor and to the underside of the hollowcore concrete flooring I've used upstairs.

The roof was a slightly different story but the roofer was perfectly competent and did a great job.

The difference is that there are additional trades involved. For example, an external insulation contractor or an airtightness installer. You can do your own airtightness work but it's very time consuming and very monotonous. I may have to do some of this myself (budget restrictions) but I'm trying to avoid it.

There are certain things the electricians and plumbers can't do and they need to be clear on that but it's not wildly unusual what you need them to do.

You need good trades people, willing to accept that this is what is needed and that will follow instructions. A phrase I hear often is "Fair enough, if that's what needs to be done, that's what needs to be done". One evening my block layer wasn't able to contact me because I was in a work meeting. He had called because they were unsure as to where the hollowcore wrap was to go and had built it into a wall. They had guessed incorrectly. They had also contacted me and given me the chance to undo it before it set and no harm was done. If it had been the next morning, it would have been set and the membrane would have been damaged when I tried to get mortar etc. off it.

Also, don't do anything without clearing it with your certifier. I enjoy a great relationship with mine because he's come to understand that I lose sleep if something isn't done to the letter of the law.

I will ask, why do you want a PH?

If it's to save on your heating bills then I would suggest that the savings may not yet be there. If oil doubles in price every 10 years from here on then it's a different story.

If you see it as your "Everest" then more power to you. Do me a favour though, if you come across my body on the way up, could you tow it back down to the wife please so I can have a proper burial!

galwaytt

sas wrote: »

........ I've spent 4 years to date on forums trying to develop the knowledge. It's a constant struggle and the primary reason that I said to "run a mile".

Et tu, Brute ?

....sounds like my first house......that method really can suck the life out of you...........house no.2, though, I got 'A Man in a Van'. House done in 12 mths.

Thou livest and thou learnst, truly.

soldsold

sas wrote: »

If you see it as your "Everest" then more power to you. Do me a favour though, if you come across my body on the way up, could you tow it back down to the wife please so I can have a proper burial!

MungoMan

sas wrote: »

The detailing is being handled by myself. I've spent 4 years to date on forums trying to develop the knowledge. It's a constant struggle and the primary reason that I said to "run a mile". I've depended on the architect tech. so much to bounce ideas off. I've obtained advice on forums from people too which has directly contributed to my home. My home was designed to be easy to build and it's still been a challenge.

As a matter of interest SAS, did you have prior experience in any form with regard to building a house ?
I'm trying to figure out how feasible it is for someone with no building experience to drive a passive house build.....getting information from websites and internet forums and some building professionals......

sas

MungoMan wrote: »

As a matter of interest SAS, did you have prior experience in any form with regard to building a house ?
I'm trying to figure out how feasible it is for someone with no building experience to drive a passive house build.....getting information from websites and internet forums and some building professionals......

I had no building experience or knowledge whatsoever. Nor was there any in my immediate familly.

How will you tell the great advice from the nonsense? I've benefited hugely from the fact that one of my friends was dealing directly with the PHI and they were directly involved in his build. I managed to organize the same for myself. From what I've heard however, they no longer offer this service this due to the demands on their time so life just got alot more complicated.

What we're up against. 2 days ago one of our fella boardsies rang me to see if I'd made any progress on my hrv. 2 hours ago another ph self builder rang me about the same thing. None of us are having any joy on this one. I've yet to speak to an Irish company on the subject and believe they were competent. I want a PH certified unit. I want a duct layout designed for me. I want it installed and I want it commissioned. I can't get it. Very annoying I can tell you. This is part and parcel of my days.....

BigGeorge

Am currently at roof level on a hopefully to be certified timber frame passive house. Reckon you are looking at 15% additional over a good quality build which is well insulated etc.... A lot of this cost is triple glazing, higher spec HRV, extra insulation etc.. There is some limited saving in slightly smaller boilers etc.... but is small money. Biggest issue I've found to date has been getting the right people for the job, the experience isnt out there yet

Benchmarked your typical irish build done direct labour over the last 10 years etc...., it could more like 30-40%.

beyondpassive

Passivhaus is being done now for convention build costs, it just needs to be clerverly designed and detailed. Comparing Passivhaus build with reg minimum is unfair as the components and workmanship are of very different quality. I think 8% is the average extra cost. In Germany only one in ten houses which aspire towards passive, will go for certification. You don't build passive solely because of energy costs. You do so because, it is a good approach to get a good quality building, which will perform as its designed. Air tests and site investigations make sure of this. It is also a building which will last. Conventional builds last 28 years, Passive should last 100 years. We'd pay double for a car marque which guarantees that extra quality of workmanship, why not pay 8% for a house.

I'm not that bothered with Certified passive, for most budgets 20-25kWh of space heat demand is appropriate to the budget and the shape. I've been involved with about 8 new build houses that aimed for passive and am only on my first certified passivhaus, which has just started on site. SAS has no doubt put a huge amount of research and hands on management into the build, but that time invested is for a purpose, it is to fix problems that are ignored in conventional building. This will result in a more comfortable building.

muffler

beyondpassive wrote: »

Conventional builds last 28 years

Where on earth did you get this from?

beyondpassive wrote: »

Passive should last 100 years.

And while we're on the topic of imaginary figures - where did you get this from?


I have to say Im far from impressed at the underlying agenda in most if not all of your posts in this forum.

galwaytt

beyondpassive wrote: »

Passivhaus is being done now for convention build costs, it just needs to be clerverly designed and detailed. Comparing Passivhaus build with reg minimum is unfair as the components and workmanship are of very different quality. I think 8% is the average extra cost. In Germany only one in ten houses which aspire towards passive, will go for certification. You don't build passive solely because of energy costs. You do so because, it is a good approach to get a good quality building, which will perform as its designed. Air tests and site investigations make sure of this. It is also a building which will last. Conventional builds last 28 years, Passive should last 100 years. We'd pay double for a car marque which guarantees that extra quality of workmanship, why not pay 8% for a house.

I'm not that bothered with Certified passive, for most budgets 20-25kWh of space heat demand is appropriate to the budget and the shape. I've been involved with about 8 new build houses that aimed for passive and am only on my first certified passivhaus, which has just started on site. SAS has no doubt put a huge amount of research and hands on management into the build, but that time invested is for a purpose, it is to fix problems that are ignored in conventional building. This will result in a more comfortable building.

OMG. No, really, OMG.

You should start reading people's post's on here. No one, no one, gets anything close to passive for only 'std' costs. To suggest you would, is, imho, misleading.

And, make up your mind: PH is either same-as-std, or 8% more. Which is it ?

Secondly - we're dealing with Passive........or are we ? SAS most certainly is, and what he's gone for. PH, means you can't go past the magic 15kW marker. If you do, it's not PH. 20-25 2kW is a mere......25-30% off.........so maybe that's how you're meeting the 8% cost barrier ? By being 'only' 25%-30% away from PH in the first place. Sure, we could all do that.......

As for design life of 'conventional' of 28 yrs - Ha! - what garbage. And that's before we get to the fact that PHI was only established in 1996 !!!

And comparing cars to houses is equally rubbish. We pay more for cars (compared to Germany) because of taxation - it has nothing to do with quality, one way or the other.

bruschi

28 years and 100 years! Hillarious!

mfceiling

Jesus my oul lad is going to have a fit when i tell him the bungalow he built 32 years ago is ready to come down now!!

muffler

mfceiling wrote: »

Jesus my oul lad is going to have a fit when i tell him the bungalow he built 32 years ago is ready to come down now!!

I think I'll move as my house was built in 1984. Just one more year left.

Im surprised that I got it insured at all.

imitation

Conventional builds last 28 years, Passive should last 100 years.

This is a point I was wondering about with passive house, and any energy efficient house really. The structure maybe standing, but will it still be passive ? Will the airtightness degrade as the glue on tape fails ? Likewise will the insulation still have the same U value ? Not to mention all the replacements that would be required, new HRV, new glazing to replace leached gasses etc.

fclauson

From a tweet conversation I had with him

WolfgangFeistConstructIRL does a house get uncertified if the local of the house changes (plants grow, neighbour creates a large shadow)?

fclauson No, the house gets certified with the conditions given at the time of the certification - anything different would be tedious

"Tedious" !!! - So if
· your neighbour builds an extension which overshadows you - you are still passive
· You grow a hedge which over time blocks out the sunlight - you are still passive
I would love to build a passive house - but the model is so finally balanced that over time as performance of the materials starts to fail (as all things which sag over time) then the build will start to under perform.

Many of the materials people are now using (membranes, spray foams, external insulation ……..) are new and do not have the historic longevity of brick, lime, stone etc.

So at the outset you have to build with that failing performance in mind.

I think you just have to be pragmatic - and balance "passivness" (if there is such a verb) with pragmatisam.

A combination of good current build techniques and a robust view of new innovation

Francis

galwaytt

fclauson wrote: »

Many of the materials people are now using (membranes, spray foams, external insulation ……..) are new and do not have the historic longevity of brick, lime, stone etc
A combination of good current build techniques and a robust view of new innovation

In a word: No.

Whilst some of the materials being used may be new - in this country - they are not new. And many are simply new ways to use existing 'current' materials.

And 'current' techniques is what has given us cold, often damp, under-perfoming and uncomfortable buildings, that have big running costs.

You're forgetting, that bituminous felt, for instance, has a shorter life than modern membranes, as well as being poor-to-middling at it's job, in the first place.

This country is littered with poorly built 'brick, lime, stone' etc, so that's not the answer - the 'that's the way we always do things around here' approach.

Let's not forget: building in stone is not the original method-of-build of man, in the first place.......that's something we started to do, to keep out the rampaging Hordes' iirc............:D

sinnerboy

imitation wrote: »

This is a point I was wondering about with passive house, and any energy efficient house really. The structure maybe standing, but will it still be passive ? Will the airtightness degrade as the glue on tape fails ? Likewise will the insulation still have the same U value ? Not to mention all the replacements that would be required, new HRV, new glazing to replace leached gasses etc.

There is nothing under the sun that does not degrade with time. But it is surely better to start off in the best condition possible.

With passiv house
HRV motors - you should bank on replacing after 10 years
Glazing units - 20/25 years ( same as non passiv)
Insulation - some degrade more than others ( some hardly at all ) so choose wisely (same as non passiv)

Conventional build with boiler - 15 year life. Ditto pumps stats + valves/mainfolds

sinnerboy

fclauson wrote: »

your neighbour builds an extension which overshadows you - you are still passive

Actually I foresee this issue coming "live" in urban areas over time with respect to solar panels. (New build and retro fit). Neighbour A invests heavily in panels and later Neighbour B plans an overshadowing extension.



As for PH Certification - if purchasing a PH one would be advised to ask someone look over the calcs - particularly the overshading - if one had a doubt.

My 2c - Should not arise in practice. A PH is for the lucky few who can self build and is likely to be a rural one off and is inherently unlikely to suffer future overshading. An urban PH will take account of significant overshading anyhow.

.

beyondpassive

galwaytt wrote: »

OMG. No, really, OMG.

You should start reading people's post's on here. No one, no one, gets anything close to passive for only 'std' costs. To suggest you would, is, imho, misleading.

And, make up your mind: PH is either same-as-std, or 8% more. Which is it ?

There is one builder who won a tender job in '08 and delivered 15kWh/m2.an, although it didn't get certified because airtightness was 0.9ach. I'll stick with 8% additional cost though, the baseline figure is for turnkey architect designed spec, Part L 2007 compliance, rather than self build, cash in hand, pine and PVC bungalow builders finish. The builder I mentioned is doing EPS clad timber frame passive, which is a cheaper way to deliver passive, its not as vapour open and thermally massive as other options, but it has the U-Value and insulation, we'll wait and see. Its important that someone breats through that 'sound barrier' of passive for less than €100 per square foot builders finish.

galwaytt wrote: »

Secondly - we're dealing with Passive........or are we ? SAS most certainly is, and what he's gone for. PH, means you can't go past the magic 15kW marker. If you do, it's not PH. 20-25 2kW is a mere......25-30% off.........so maybe that's how you're meeting the 8% cost barrier ? By being 'only' 25%-30% away from PH in the first place. Sure, we could all do that.......

Ya, well I've no Passivhaus certified yet, so my figures are questionable and based on tenders received recently. 8% is based on 15kWh/m2.an. Having th ehouse designed as passive from the outset helps, as external surface area is minimised, this also helps with costs. I'm sure there is more 'fat' in contractor built compared to self built. Also some contractors will submit lower contract sums to win a Passive project, to get experience in this new area. This muddies the water somewhat

galwaytt wrote: »

As for design life of 'conventional' of 28 yrs - Ha! - what garbage. And that's before we get to the fact that PHI was only established in 1996 !!!

Sorry I should have worded this better, With recent fuel increases, the average house built in 1988, needs more than 10% of the average industrial income or <€3,200 per annum to maintain comfort. It is therefor not fit for porpose. The Passive house lasting 100 yrs was a guess, my bad.
*Households are considered to be in 'fuel poverty' if they have to spend more than 10% of their household income on fuel to keep their home in a 'satisfactory' condition, where, for example, a 'satisfactory' heating regime is considered to be one where the main living area is at 21 degrees centigrade with 18 degrees centigrade in the other occupied rooms.

galwaytt wrote: »

And comparing cars to houses is equally rubbish. We pay more for cars (compared to Germany) because of taxation - it has nothing to do with quality, one way or the other.

Well telly's so, why pay twice as much for Sony as for an Alba or Tevion? Equally with passivehaus, its that marque of quality you pay for.

Apologies if my posts are a little belligerent or preachy, but I am an enthusiastic promoter of Passivhaus as a concept. I do agree with you all that Passivhaus is a consuming endeavour and a very tedious process to get certified. Sure, It's a bit more expensive, but you get what you pay for. Big respect to SAS for sticking with it.

KindOfIrish

sas wrote: »

I have 60m2 of PH certified windows costing 48k! last year.

"Let me tell you about the very rich. They are different from you and me"
F.Scott Fitzgerald

Honestly, I can built a decent 3 bed for 48K :eek: (exclude cost of land)

sinnerboy

KindOfIrish wrote: »

"Let me tell you about the very rich. They are different from you and me"
F.Scott Fitzgerald

Honestly, I can built a decent 3 bed for 48K :eek: (exclude cost of land)

You appear to be new to this part of Boards. Before contributing any further please read this and this

rooster108

So is your house finished now? I'm starting my own project this year and would love some advice and pointers please!!

AlanOM

whelzer wrote: »

OP I'm getting a passive extension built on my 1920s dublin house - its about 70% complete. The rest of house is being rennovated "close" to passive levels. The builder has years of experience of this type of work and new builds. I'll PM you their details. Your welcome to come take a look "on site" (I hate that term - its my house!), if you feel like it..

Hi Whelzer,

Were you satisfied with your builder regarding his ability to construct to passive spec? Just put up planning notice for a mid 1850s renovation on the northside, and am looking for quotations for a builder who understands the concept of Passive building!

Alan