some advice on a suitable stove please?

jackrussell007

hi folks

I'm hoping you can advise me on which stove to buy. We're living in a fairly standard 3 bed semi. Its about thirty years old so its maybe slightly larger than some of the more modern homes. our living room is open plan into a front room so the living space down stairs is fairly large. (dimensions below)

As we have a coupe of small kids, we want the living area down stairs to be cosy. Whatever we get the missus intends lighting the stove around midday each day and keep it ticking over to heat the living room.

the decision we are struggling with is that if the stove is lighting for this long all day then we might as well have a boiler stove so that its heating the rads as well. the argument against this seems to be that if you get a bigger, boiler stove then you need to light a bigger fire in them in order to keep the water heated and so it will cost a lot more to keep going.

also the boiler stoves dont seem to be designed to pump much heat into the room but rather concentrate it all on the boiler. we dont want to end up facing in the rad in the evening rather than the fire if you know what i mean.

the attraction of the non boiler stove is that we've seen them in action, they seem to pump great heat into the room. so much so that I'm hoping that if its running from midday that it will heat a lot of the house anyway.

so heres a few dimensions if that helps
the rads seem to be all different lengths. they are all about 19" high and an average length of about 50" so thats

4 double rads 19" x 50".
4 single rads 19" x 50".

the room is a large ish living room which is open plan then into a front room
11.5ft x 18ft
13ft x 11ft

the fireplace cavity seems to be approx 18" if that matters.

thanks for any advice.

MicktheMan

How is the house heated at present? Is it sufficient / efficient?

Assuming that you house has a reasonably efficient ch system which is capable of heating your house, if I were you I would keep it simple.
I.e. install a properly sized, solid fuel, space heating only, stove and forget about the stove/boiler dual system.

Reason 1. very often these are done incorrectly and negatively effects both the stove and ch boiler efficiencies.
Reason 2. You now have space heat redundancy, that is, if something goes wrong with your ch system, you at least have a backup space heater for your living area. Same also applies if you lose electrical power.
Reason 3. Simplicity! your space heater (stove) heats your living space and your (efficient) ch system heats your house and hot water.

Be careful when choosing your stove, as you can easily oversize it. Also take into account any future improvements you may be making to the house fabric (improving wall/roof insulation, draught proofing etc).

Hope this helps!

jackrussell007

thanks for your reply mick

the oil central heating we have is about as effecient/ineffecient as anyone elses i suppose. after coughing up for a stove though I'd be hoping that I dont use a huge amount of it and it would be used in early morning only maybe.

I've one or two questions based on your recommendations. if we were to get the boiler stove properly fitted, would this not be a better set up? would it not give sufficient heat to the living space and also contribute to the rads getting heated?

i.e. would it not give true heating redundancy where if anything happens the oil central heating then the boiler stove should still heat the rads and the water in the tank
or
if anything happens the stove then at least we still have the oil the heat the rads anyway.

MicktheMan

jackrussell007 wrote: »

thanks for your reply mick

the oil central heating we have is about as effecient/ineffecient as anyone elses i suppose. after coughing up for a stove though I'd be hoping that I dont use a huge amount of it and it would be used in early morning only maybe.

I've one or two questions based on your recommendations. if we were to get the boiler stove properly fitted, would this not be a better set up? would it not give sufficient heat to the living space and also contribute to the rads getting heated?

i.e. would it not give true heating redundancy where if anything happens the oil central heating then the boiler stove should still heat the rads and the water in the tank
or
if anything happens the stove then at least we still have the oil the heat the rads anyway.

Without a proper survey, it is not possible to give accurate advice and therefore this is my opinion based on my experience and is general in nature.

Depends on what you mean by better setup! If you are to replace your ch boiler with the output of your stove, then you will need a very large output stove and you will need to feed it a lot of fuel (manually). Also, stoves are generally less efficient, need more (daily) maintainance, are slower to respond and are less controlable than properly maintained modern ch boilers.

If you lose electricity then you have no heating at all (the water in the stove will boil). This occurs fairly regularly where I live.

My philosophy is to use the most appropriate and efficient system to do the work that needs to be done. For central heating it's the ch boiler, for space heating it's a space heating stove.

I'm not saying you cannot do it, it's just that I regularly come across badly installed/maintained systems where neither stove or ch boiler are working efficiently.
I would also ask myself what am I trying to achieve and take it from there.

jackrussell007

We get the odd power cut but not too many. In that case I presume the pump on my oil central heating woud not work anyway as would the pump on my present back boiler on the fire.

I take your point about the stove being the most effecient space heater. Like i said I dont want to be cuddled into the radiator at night. I want a good output into the room from whatever stove we get.

I suppose it boils down to the fact that if we have a stove lighting for near 12 hours a day, is it not a shame that its not contributing to the central heating of the house?
thanks again

pegasus1

here's my 2 ct's,

i have a good friend living in a large 4 bed detached house... he recently added in a carnwood island3b which is a large stove with a backboiler, into his gasfired central heating...

it works a dream....heats up the rads with the gas, then when the boiler is hot,the gas is turned off...the rads stay hot with just the stove... he doesn't use a hell of a lot of fuel at all he is saving a fortune on gas bills..

mick the man

For central heating it's the ch boiler, for space heating it's a space heating stove.

whats the difference? they do the same job..

MicktheMan

pegasus1 wrote: »

whats the difference? they do the same job..

A ch system heats the whole house
A space heater heats the space it is located in

pegasus1

some info on how to do a link up of the ch to the stove!

it under the link up option

http://www.solidfuel.co.uk/pdfs/index.htm

pegasus1

MicktheMan wrote: »

A ch system heats the whole house
A space heater heats the space it is located in

but if have the doors open the stove will do the same, also the stove with a back boiler will do the same

paddy147

I live in a 4 bed semi.

I was going for a boiler stove originally,but then changed my mind and went with this Stovax Riva 66 inset 8KW stove (non boiler).

I have a new zoned heating syetem too and also the entire house in insulated too.

The Stove heats the entire of downstairs so well and with the heat rising too,even upstairs is snug and cosy.Only really use the heating for a quick boost of the rads or just for some hot water every now and again.


P.S-Before anyone says that I cant have a skirting board in front of the Stove,due to a fire hazzard......I know.

The carpenter didnt cop or know that,when he was doing the flooring and skirting in the house.:rolleyes:

As of this afternoon,its gone and thanks to Robinson Stone and Marble in Wicklow,I have had a new black granite plinth made and cut to length to suit the recessed granite hearth too.

pegasus1

nice job paddy, i hope your tv doesn't melt though!

paddy147

pegasus1 wrote: »

nice job paddy, i hope your tv doesn't melt though!

That was put there by the builder,as an option.

Ive several TV points in the room,and I have sussed out where the TV is going,I also have to consider where Im sticking a 500 litre aquariam too.

But the TV is not going on the chimney breast for 2 reasons.......

1-I dont want it to melt or fail from over heating.
2-The stove and chimney breast are a focal point of the room,the way it should be.


Thanks.:)

jackrussell007

pegasus1 wrote: »

here's my 2 ct's,

i have a good friend living in a large 4 bed detached house... he recently added in a carnwood island3b which is a large stove with a backboiler, into his gasfired central heating...

it works a dream....heats up the rads with the gas, then when the boiler is hot,the gas is turned off...the rads stay hot with just the stove... he doesn't use a hell of a lot of fuel at all he is saving a fortune on gas bills..

This sounds ideal to me, would like to if anyone else has the same experience with this type of configuration. I'd especially like to know whether that boiler stove is hungrier than a non boiler stove. From what I know about boiler stoves the water is constantly pumped rather than heating up to a certain temp and then getting pumped around the house. I wonder do you need a roaring fire in the boiler stove to keep the rads reasonably hot or is it so effecient that if you have the stove lighting all day with a reasonable flame that it will keep the rads warm anyway?

thanks

slave1

Reasonably similar setup OP
Front room is 22' X 12'
House is ~1,900sqf semi build circa 1970.

I changed my front room back boiler for a Stanly Erin stove a few months back.
Fire on to hot water going to the rads is about 20 minutes, both radiators in the front room are now permanently switched off.
Day like today (4 degrees at 1PM) the fire could go on around 1'ish with some logs to get it going, then two buckets of coal is sufficient for the rest of the day/night heating 3 large single radiators, 4 small single rads and 3 small double rads. House is heated to tee shirt level, front room the hottest.
I have done a lot of retro insulation as well (else you're wasting your time heating a house that will fail to retain the heat).

jackrussell007

that sounds like the business. does two buckets of coal in one night sound like a lot though? are they a decent size buckets? If I light my open fireplace at 1 in the day it would only go through 2 buckets and would heat the rads as well. I'm kinda hoping that my bucket is a lot bigger than yours maybe?

slave1

here ya go...

Antiquo

A stove installation is not a simple affair and if anyone tells you differently don’t take any notice.
Therefore if you are going to go to all that trouble you may as well install a stove boiler. Assuming you get a quality stove and it is correctly installed they are very efficient and provide years of trouble free service. I installed a Coalbrookdale stove boiler in my first house over twenty years ago and the guy who lives there now loves it to bits. All he’s ever had to do is get the chimney cleaned every year.
Go to a shop that specialises in quality stoves and get professional advice on the correct installation. As opposed to the local garden centres and corner shops who are selling bargain stoves, 90deg bends, adapters and advising you to rip out that concrete lintel in the fireplace if the stove won’t fit.:eek:
A boiler stove has to have a vented gravity fed primary circuit with an unvalved (stops the kids turning it off:)) radiator and hot water tank (double coil if you want to keep existing heating boiler). All this is run on 28mm copper so that in the event of a power failure the heat generated by the stove is dissipated by convection and gravity, i.e. the rad and tank act as a heat sink.
Size your stove based on your current insulation level, ventilation and hot water requirements (good time to upsize your tank also;)). Size your rads (don’t expect or assume you have got the correct size rads in the house at the moment) add up all your rads and hot water in Kw factor in the stove room output and this will be your boiler size required. Any decent shop will be able to do this for you.
When you’ve sized the boiler choose the stove and don’t worry there is plenty of heat from the stove to heat a decent sized room directly again the shop will be able to show you these figures.
Unless you are very competent I would get a professional plumber (who has experience of these systems), sparks and builder to fit and connect the stove, line and insulate the flue, provide external air supply, etc, etc.
The pump runs off hi and lo thermostats connected on the flow and return to the boiler, some boilers are controlled by thermostats which slow the burn when the system is at a preset heat.
Basically research, research, research and then go out and see what you need but don’t underestimate the system complexity and how it should be installed to get the most out of it. An improperly installed stove or stove boiler even a quality piece will not perform properly and may be a danger to you and your family through CO poisoning or fire hazard. Good luck with whatever you go for.

Black Bloc

With children about a tiled stove is better that an exposed cast iron stove. I have two anselmo tiled stoves (convection) and two hunter cast iron stoves (radiant) and the tiled stoves are better IMHO. All out stives are wood buners. They are ten years old. I suggest your stove flue is fitted with a damper plate otherwise you may lose a lot of heat (and therefore waste fuel).

heinbloed

SEE FOOT NOTE BELOW !


The last post reads:

If you put in a boiler model then it will be heating the rads all day, probably when there is no-one in the rooms, and therefore consuming more fuel. The split between rood heat and rads is pretty much fixed on each stove, so if you try to reduce the heat to the rads then you will reduce the heat to the living room.

Rubbish. Be carefull where looking for advice!


Footnote:

This posting is a comment on some posters post. This poster was advertising for a company calling themself " Stoveadvise ". Or something like it.
Their post had been removed without a trace.

So my posting starting with " The last post reads ...." is NOT an answer to Black Bloc's posting (20-01-2011, 11:37 )

Coldplat

heinbloed wrote: »

The last post reads:




Rubbish. Be carefull where looking for advice!

Just saying a post is rubbish is not very helpful to anyone heinbloed. If there is something you disagree with in a post you should be more specific, so it can be discussed on the forum.

Try being more constructive.

heinbloed

Coldplat wrote:

Just saying a post is rubbish is not very helpful to anyone heinbloed. If there is something you disagree with in a post you should be more specific, so it can be discussed on the forum.

Well, if every single statement a poster makes is factually wrong I call the entire post "rubbish".
To be more constructive when discussing or correcting a statement one needs a foundation, a base to build upon. Where there is none such foundation any constructive method is useless, pruducing nothing.
So no further comment exept total condemnation.

The OP asks in principle what type of boiler he/she should choose. Giving ( for an amateur/consumer !) good detailing on the basic lay-out.

Strange that no one in the plumbing forum was willing to answer.
There wasn't much constructive comment so far, but I as an amateur will do my best (smiley):

Stoves are regulated by EN 13240:2001

Boilers are regulated by EN 12828:2003

The heat load resp. the suitability of a boiler to match this load ( the OPs question) is also, MUST also be calculated according EN 12828:2003 .



Simple thing:

Always ask for full documentation. Always insist on the CE mark. Always insist on a heat load calculation. Everything in writing, signed.

Here a link warning of rubbish sellers trying to sell stoves to the unaware consumer:

http://www.fireplaces-oldham.co.uk/Stoves_faq_EN13240.htm

Coldplat

As I read it the original poster is not sure what stove he wants, I quote
“the decision we are struggling with is that if the stove is lighting for this long all day then we might as well have a boiler stove so that its heating the rads as well. the argument against this seems to be that if you get a bigger, boiler stove then you need to light a bigger fire in them in order to keep the water heated and so it will cost a lot more to keep going”
The post you described as rubbish agrees with this and as far as I can see it is not factually wrong as you described it. Maybe you know of some stoves that allow you to decide if you want to heat the room or the rads, if so you should share this information.
Before the poster has any need to consult EN12828 he needs to decide how he wants to heat his house, using a dry stove for this room and heating the rest of the house with his existing boiler or combining a boiler stove with his current system There is a case to be made for both options.
I totally agree that the poster should only buy a stove that has been approved to EN 13240, this standard also applied to boiler stoves. The boiler test is an integral part of the EN13240 test.
Deciding on “total condemnation” just stifles the debate and limits the flow of information.