Entry into the civil service

cookies221

If you can't beat 'em, join 'em. I, along with many others, have recently been made redundant as the private sector is hit the worst in this latest recession. I'd like a stable, safe job in the civil service please.

I realise there is no central civil service department in this country. Instead we have an agglomeration of county coucils and city corporations, so I suppose I'll be applying to one of these. Is there an exam I can take like in the UK? Or are the rumours true - you have to know somebody already working there to get in? I have a college education to masters level, btw.

gazzer

www.publicjobs.ie would be your best starting point but there is an embargo on recruitment in the Civil Service at the moment.

cookies221

gazzer wrote: »

...there is an embargo on recruitment in the Civil Service at the moment.

Hmm funny you should say that. I realise this is "officially" the case, but I was taking care of some business in my local motor tax office last week and the middle aged lady who was serving me (the whole office was staffed by middle aged ladies actually) was obvioulsy under training as there was another lady standing over her shoulder explaining each of the forms as she was filling them in and telling her what to do.

Although this is only anecdotal, I believe recruitment is going on within the civil service. I have my suspicions that these positions aren't being advertised to the general public in favour of nepotism.

PCPhoto

cookies221 wrote: »

If you can't beat 'em, join 'em. I, along with many others, have recently been made redundant as the private sector is hit the worst in this latest recession. I'd like a stable, safe job in the civil service please.

I realise there is no central civil service department in this country. Instead we have an agglomeration of county coucils and city corporations, so I suppose I'll be applying to one of these. Is there an exam I can take like in the UK? Or are the rumours true - you have to know somebody already working there to get in? I have a college education to masters level, btw.

in every aspect of civil service or a particular area?

all that says to me is that you have a Masters and could be overqualified for any entry level civil service jobs....or most entry level jobs.

like most jobs (public or private sector) .... experience is what matters ... having a qualification is nothing compared to a couple of years of actually doing the job....I have a certificate in applied chemistry - have worked in Analytical labs doing batch analysis etc .... the same labs had people doing masters and had degree and diploma qualifications .... we all did the same testing, level of pay was different (maybe).

gazzer

cookies221 wrote: »

Hmm funny you should say that. I realise this is "officially" the case, but I was taking care of some business in my local motor tax office last week and the middle aged lady who was serving me (the whole office was staffed by middle aged ladies actually) was obvioulsy under training as there was another lady standing over her shoulder explaining each of the forms as she was filling them in and telling her what to do.

Although this is only anecdotal, I believe recruitment is going on within the civil service. I have my suspicions that these positions aren't being advertised to the general public in favour of nepotism.

Motor Tax would come under the county/city councils so perhaps they are taking on some staff. In the Civil Service department I work in there has definately not been anybody taken on. Im here nearly 3 years and some staff have retired, moved to another department, gone on maternity leave etc and none of them have been replaced.

In the likes of Social Welfare departments the embargo should be lifted as they are seriously understaffed at present.

Bicycle

"I'd like a stable, safe job in the civil service please"

Entrants since 1995 do not have security of tenure. Their terms and conditions of employment are the same as private sector workers - they can be let go with appropriate notice, they can be made redundant. They do not have a guaranteed job for life.

"but I was taking care of some business in my local motor tax office last week and the middle aged lady who was serving me (the whole office was staffed by middle aged ladies actually) was obvioulsy under training as there was another lady standing over her shoulder explaining each of the forms as she was filling them in and telling her what to do."

It may well have been a redeployment from another corporation department that is under utilised currently (thinking here of the Planning Department or something similar).

"In the likes of Social Welfare departments the embargo should be lifted as they are seriously understaffed at present"

There should be redeployment between different areas in this situation. For example FAS. The waiting lists are ridiculous for the processing of forms and claims.

the_barfly1

Civil service, Co. Council etc you generally have to know somebody/be related to somebody. I'll be lambasted for saying it because the "Official" line says otherwise. But from what I've seen with my own two eyes its the truth.
I'm just raging I've no relatives working in it!

gazzer

the_barfly1 wrote: »

Civil service, Co. Council etc you generally have to know somebody/be related to somebody. I'll be lambasted for saying it because the "Official" line says otherwise. But from what I've seen with my own two eyes its the truth.
I'm just raging I've no relatives working in it!

Thats not true at all. Sure when you join the civil service you could be put in any department so how could that happen? Plenty of people here in Cavan looking to get into the Civil Service and they know loads of people in the department or are related to them but funnilly enough these people are still looking for work so that blows your theory out of the window.

On top of that what about the aptitude tests and interviews that entrants have to go through? I only wish that you have to know somebody in the Civil Service to get in. Maybe they could wing me a promotion.

gazzer

There should be redeployment between different areas in this situation. For example FAS. The waiting lists are ridiculous for the processing of forms and claims.

I agree with you but in a lot of cases there is no room to put the additional staff. For instance the social welfare office here in Cavan is at maximum capacity for staff. There is no room for any more so the only option is to move the department to a new location. In order for a office to move it will have to be cost neutral.

Nolanger

Try and get in as a services attendant. The offices recruit these jobs directly and once you're in you can go for internal promotions (which are happening).

finisklin

Do people see recruitment policies changing for the civil service with the forthcoming change of government? What with all the opposition huffing and puffing about effectiveness and robustness of the private sector, will we see the Civil Service (Government Dept's, State bodies etc.) look to recruit private sector people with strong commercial skills?

For example, not at entry level grade but higher up.....maybe assistant principal or principal grade.

BTW I was blown away when I found out the pay grade's, remuneration for the above positions.........+€69k, 30 days hols, exp's etc. Middle management positions in the private sector go from €40k - €55k at the moment, which is probably comparable.

Tchaikovsky

From personal experience, I have to say that it's nepotism all the way unfortunately.

cookies221

Nolanger wrote: »

Try and get in as a services attendant. The offices recruit these jobs directly and once you're in you can go for internal promotions (which are happening).

Pardon my ignorance, but what is a services attendant? And where can I apply? Are the positions advertised anywhere? More info please!

InReality

See http://www.localgovernmentjobs.ie/ for local govt jobs.

for the straightforward civil service , i.e. goverment depts , there is def no nepotism.
Can't be as you have to pass an exam just to be the running for an interview.


For other public sector jobs I can't say for sure.

There was some issue in the HSE recently ; its by far the largest public sector employer , about 150-200k people there.

largepants

OP at the moment there is a moratorium in the Civil Service. There is absolutely no recruitment at present and that is a fact. I'm guessing that the reason this person was being trained was either redeployment or a head to head transfer. It looks like it'll be 2014 before there will be any further recruitment.

And I can guarantee that there is no nepotism within the Civil Service. Anyone who says otherwise has a chip on their shoulder with regards to Civil and Public Servants.

tommy21

largepants wrote: »

OP at the moment there is a moratorium in the Civil Service. There is absolutely no recruitment at present and that is a fact. I'm guessing that the reason this person was being trained was either redeployment or a head to head transfer. It looks like it'll be 2014 before there will be any further recruitment.

And I can guarantee that there is no nepotism within the Civil Service. Anyone who says otherwise has a chip on their shoulder with regards to Civil and Public Servants.

By Location - Cork
Total Jobs Found - 0



I'll follow this thread for 2014 :eek:

Mayo Exile

Bicycle wrote: »

Entrants since 1995 do not have security of tenure. Their terms and conditions of employment are the same as private sector workers - they can be let go with appropriate notice, they can be made redundant. They do not have a guaranteed job for life.

?

Whatever about people in the civil/public service on temporary or fixed term contracts, I've never heard of anybody on a "permanent" (post 1995) contract being let go in a compulsory fashion unless its for disciplinary reasons or maybe serious under-performance. (yet).

Cute Hoor

To those who are saying that nepotism is the main/only qualification for getting into the Civil Service, well nothing could be further from the truth, this just smacks of sour grapes or maybe just a lack of knowledge. I'm assuming you are talking about substantive jobs, if you're talking about a lad leaning on his shovel gazing into a road hole who has been temporarily recruited because of the damage done by the snow then that might be different, they mighn't go through the whole selection process for those couple of weeks work.

Nolanger

cookies221 wrote: »

Pardon my ignorance, but what is a services attendant? And where can I apply? Are the positions advertised anywhere? More info please!

It's a basic non-skilled job to assist the services officer. Bit of cleaning, security, collecting post, bringing visitors to the manager's office, directing customers to the right counter, that kind of thing. The best way to find a job is to write directly to the manager (not personnel section) of each office in your area e.g. tax, dole buildings, etc.

Zipppy

largepants wrote: »

OP at the moment there is a moratorium in the Civil Service. There is absolutely no recruitment at present and that is a fact. I'm guessing that the reason this person was being trained was either redeployment or a head to head transfer. It looks like it'll be 2014 before there will be any further recruitment.

And I can guarantee that there is no nepotism within the Civil Service. Anyone who says otherwise has a chip on their shoulder with regards to Civil and Public Servants.

Agree with this totally...
There is NO recruitment to general admin grades in civil/public service at the moment...

Some more technical jobs or senior management are advertised in national press (and it's only been a few in last couple of years)
recruitment for general admin jobs is always by open competition...aptitude tests/interviews....so is very transparent. The only reason it might appear you need to know someone is bacause like most sectors people tend to follow their parents.siblings etc into the public service..

As for 2014..god only knows when there will be open recruitment again...might be a lot longer than that !!

pow wow

Re. the service attendants, they aren't always recruited by the offices - they are often redeployed from other Departments rather than recruited externally (our most recent addition was a transfer from another Dep.). Still worth a shot though!

NWPat

cookies221 wrote: »

If you can't beat 'em, join 'em. I, along with many others, have recently been made redundant as the private sector is hit the worst in this latest recession. I'd like a stable, safe job in the civil service please.

I realise there is no central civil service department in this country. Instead we have an agglomeration of county coucils and city corporations, so I suppose I'll be applying to one of these. Is there an exam I can take like in the UK? Or are the rumours true - you have to know somebody already working there to get in? I have a college education to masters level, btw.

If you realy want to work in the civil service, do some research first. Find out the difference between the public service (county council, HSE etc) and the civil service (Government Departments). Indeed, I am surprised someone apparently so well educated could have done so little research.

Denerick

largepants wrote: »

And I can guarantee that there is no nepotism within the Civil Service. Anyone who says otherwise has a chip on their shoulder with regards to Civil and Public Servants.

Nepotism is rampant throughout the Health Service Executive (HSE), as the Sunday Independent has exposed another group of children of senior managers being appointed to jobs which were not advertised.

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/hse-at-the-centre-of-nepotism-row-again-2245564.html

Nepotism is rife in all public bodies. To deny this is to accuse other readers of imbecility.

Zipppy

Denerick wrote: »

Nepotism is rampant throughout the Health Service Executive (HSE), as the Sunday Independent has exposed another group of children of senior managers being appointed to jobs which were not advertised.

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/hse-at-the-centre-of-nepotism-row-again-2245564.html

Nepotism is rife in all public bodies. To deny this is to accuse other readers of imbecility.

I'm many years in public service......have never come across it

parsi

Denerick wrote: »

Nepotism is rampant throughout the Health Service Executive (HSE), as the Sunday Independent has exposed another group of children of senior managers being appointed to jobs which were not advertised.

Nepotism is rife in the Independent Group.

Denerick

Zipppy wrote: »

I'm many years in public service......have never come across it

I was in the civil service for three months on a temp contract. One of the ladies working in our office tragically lost her husband and went awol. The next week the daughter of the chief heo in our unit was filling in for her in a 6 month contract. Both of my parents work in the public service. I know how it operates.

Denerick

parsi wrote: »

Nepotism is rife in the Independent Group.

The indepedenent group is a private body and is perfectly entitled to promote nepotism if it so wishes. The civil service is the most significant organ of the state, and the level of nepotism and jobbery there is a national scandal. Close your eyes all you like, its a fact.

parsi

Denerick wrote: »

The indepedenent group is a private body and is perfectly entitled to promote nepotism if it so wishes. The civil service is the most significant organ of the state, and the level of nepotism and jobbery there is a national scandal. Close your eyes all you like, its a fact.

For a supposed fact there doesn't seem to be proof.

finisklin

parsi wrote: »

For a supposed fact there doesn't seem to be proof.

I have thought about this......maybe a bit too laterally but as TDs are civil/public servants they might be an example?

See this link where one in five TDs/senators employ family members.......

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/one-in-five-tds-and-senators-employing-a-family-member-1458546.html

Nepotism at its best....:pac:......:pac:.....:pac:......

Though this may be broadening the debate a bit too wide, but possiblly they are following the example of their permanent bureaucratic brethern?

Denerick

parsi wrote: »

For a supposed fact there doesn't seem to be proof.

I suppose if you refuse to see the monkey you won't see the monkey. I posted a link about HSE managers employing their children. Never come across the phenonomon of 'unadvertised positions'?

parsi

finisklin wrote: »

I have thought about this......maybe a bit too laterally but as TDs are civil/public servants they might be an example?

See this link where one in five TDs/senators employ family members.......

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/one-in-five-tds-and-senators-employing-a-family-member-1458546.html

Nepotism at its best....:pac:......:pac:.....:pac:......

Though this may be broadening the debate a bit too wide, but possiblly they are following the example of their permanent bureaucratic brethern?

That's an interesting point alright. However it seems that posts directly within the employ of our elected representatives are in their gift. Of course they also cease when/if they're not re-elected. 1 -in- 5 seems low - traditionally it was spouses and family who undertook that work.

The Civil Service is covered by the Public Appointments Commission. Nepotism doesn't work.

largepants

I know plenty of sons and daughters working in daddys and mammy businesses in the private sector.

Again I'd like to point out that I've never come across this in the Civil Service.

InReality

I think OP's question was answered.

1.
About the nepotism , short-term contracts are open to a bit of abuse , the HSE story and the earlier poster's story were both about short-term contracts.

2.
TD's make their own rules , sadly.

3.
For a permanent position in the Civil Service , there is no back door.
Also the competition is for those jobs is normally very high.

4.
Goverment appointments to public bodies , state boards etc , in general , have no qualification requirements or interview processes.
The goverment appoints who it likes , so they are wide open to abuse.

dixiefly

cookies221 wrote: »

If you can't beat 'em, join 'em. I, along with many others, have recently been made redundant as the private sector is hit the worst in this latest recession. I'd like a stable, safe job in the civil service please.

I realise there is no central civil service department in this country. Instead we have an agglomeration of county coucils and city corporations, so I suppose I'll be applying to one of these. Is there an exam I can take like in the UK? Or are the rumours true - you have to know somebody already working there to get in? I have a college education to masters level, btw.

If you genuinely ever want to get work there you should get an attitude change towards your potential employer.

Also your best bet would be in some area in which you could offer something in some specific area. There are enough general admin people in the Public / Civil Service to do for many years at the current attrition rates.

oscarb

There would appear to be some specialist posts advertised at times on publicjobs.ie but as for recruitment into mainstream civil service, there is no movement with this and possibly won't be for the foreseeable future.
The Croke Park Agreement has the option of Redeployment within the existing Civil Service so that staff either looking to move or Departments looking to reduce staff are pooled into this.

Departments looking for staff are going to have to draw from this pool from now on. I've a suspicion that the Department of Finance have reigned in budgets for staff in Departments and it is a case of if a Department needs a staff member, then that Department is going to have to put forward a case for getting an extra member of staff. I was speaking to a guy over in FAS and he told me that he had been brought into Social Protection (or Social Welfare as we still know it by) so staff in FAS are probably filling vacancies which would normally have been filled by new recruits to the civil service.

As for people getting jobs in the Civil Service by knowing family/friends, recruitment would have previously been carried out by the Civil Service Commission so unless you had family/friends there, you wouldn't get assigned a post with a Department. As for the temporary contracts, if they are filled locally by Departments, well then this is different ballgame.

kiersm

I have never seen nepotism since i joined the civil service which is nearly 9 yrs ago i did an exam and interview and had no one belonged to me working in the civil service. There is no back door to getting in. All civil service jobs are advertised on the public jobs website so keep an eye out there for jobs.

There is no recruitment going on for standard admin positions but there is certain positions coming up now and again on the public jobs site, register there and set up the applications section and they will email when positions become available.

pow wow

kiersm wrote: »

I have never seen nepotism since i joined the civil service which is nearly 9 yrs ago i did an exam and interview and had no one belonged to me working in the civil service. There is no back door to getting in. All civil service jobs are advertised on the public jobs website so keep an eye out there for jobs.

There is no recruitment going on for standard admin positions but there is certain positions coming up now and again on the public jobs site, register there and set up the applications section and they will email when positions become available.

I'd disagree, though I've only seen it in one of the Departments I've worked in in ROI (it was rife in the Department I worked in in NI as our HR director was ridiculous and I wouldn't really expect any more out of him). I've known people going for interviews who have been called before the interview by one of the interview panelists and given a run down of the questions and how to answer them because the interviewer knew their mother :rolleyes: If an interviewing panel only consists of 2 or 3 interviewers and they know that applicant x is Mary from IT's son or whatever it is very very easy to make sure that Mary's son places top of the list, and anyone who thinks that would never happen is misguided.

Of course it absolutely shouldn't happen, and the murky 'transparency' of recruitment that the public service peddles is supposed to ensure it doesn't, but I have seen it first hand more than once.

kiersm

I won't say it doesn't happen with some temps contracts but even that is now centralised by the civil service commission, at least in the last yr or two they even do the contracts for that too.

I no that previously if you did one summer contract the next summer you would probably get a phone call if you were interested in that position again but don't think i've ever worked with the son of someone who worked there etc, most of the jobs were initially through fas and then interview

Nolanger

The Civil Service are supposed to get getting rid of 1,600 staff.

Shelga

In my experience, there is definite nepotism within some public bodies. I worked from June-December of last year for a local county council; they were hiring staff on temporary contracts. They didn't advertise the positions due to the ban on recruitment and the fact that they wouldn't have had the resources to process the inevitably large number of applicants that would have applied.

They interviewed 12 people for 3 positions. As far as I am aware, every single one of the 12 was the son or daughter of a county council employee.

kiersm

Don't no anything bout people being left go in the Civil Service but then again i def wouldn't be someone who would hear bout that until it was happening

finisklin

My background is in the private sector so have very limited knowledge of how the civil sector/public sector (thanks for the distinction between the two, BTW!) works. From what I can see there doesn't appear to be a formal HR function within government departments or local authorities.

The question then is how is HRM and best practise regarding people management, career development, recruitment, training, performance appraissals etc take place in the Civil & Public sector, if at all? Is there a formal HR person in place to manage these key areas?

In the private sector you have a review every year where your personal development plan is outlined and reviewed for the previous year. Personal objectives that were set regarding specific projects or development areas are assessed and at the end of your review your line manager grades your performance for HR. This takes the form of something like excellent, very good, good, average, poor, needs improvement etc.

Further, in the interview process and especially at the first interview - is this not competency based (as in the private sector) where a candidate can be assessed to determine firstly if they can do the job as per the specification? It really doesn't matter what level job it is as competency is critical to see if the candidate can do the job outlined.

Interesting to get the view of somebody within the civil or public service.......

pow wow

finisklin wrote: »

My background is in the private sector so have very limited knowledge of how the civil sector/public sector (thanks for the distinction between the two, BTW!) works. From what I can see there doesn't appear to be a formal HR function within government departments or local authorities.

The question then is how is HRM and best practise regarding people management, career development, recruitment, training, performance appraissals etc take place in the Civil & Public sector, if at all? Is there a formal HR person in place to manage these key areas?

In the private sector you have a review every year where your personal development plan is outlined and reviewed for the previous year. Personal objectives that were set regarding specific projects or development areas are assessed and at the end of your review your line manager grades your performance for HR. This takes the form of something like excellent, very good, good, average, poor, needs improvement etc.

Further, in the interview process and especially at the first interview - is this not competency based (as in the private sector) where a candidate can be assessed to determine firstly if they can do the job as per the specification? It really doesn't matter what level job it is as competency is critical to see if the candidate can do the job outlined.

Interesting to get the view of somebody within the civil or public service.......

The Department I just left had a substantial HR team who handled direct recruitment in the past and anything to do with centralised recruitment more recently. However these were often AOs etc. who had rotated from within the Dept and so weren't always trained HR 'professionals'. Staff rotated through all areas of my Dept. every 2 or 3 years so no-one ever stayed in one place very long. I'm sure that makes sense in some ways but for HR functions it seemed nuts and didn't exactly instill any confidence from us in the more recent additions to the HR team.

Re. the annual reviews we had one every year, not unlike ones I'd had in the private sector.

My own interview was competency based - I'd assume most are once you're past the assessment stage.

kiersm

My department is different we are one of the few that is not really assessed that way every yr. My HRM department is based in Dublin and i'm down the country and unlike most Government departments it is run kinda differently, going by what i've heard from other staff in other departments.

If we have an issue we want resolved etc we go to our boss but as regards yearly reviews I haven't had one in a good while....

A lot of what i do is working on your own iniative and doing what needs to be done

southernstar

My other half works as front line staff at a HSE care organisation and by coincidence was giving out about this earlier.

According to her, where she works the children of managers are being given jobs that are not being advertised, and staff who have been there for years but don't have permanencies (because they are unavailable) are losing their full lines.

People dont have any rights now because they have to be treated as relief staff - for years on end. And the kids of managers are being put into their jobs.

This is very wrong.

InReality

Civil Service has an yearly assessment system similar to that in the private sector. It's known as PMDS. I'm not a huge fan of a lot of this sort of stuff - I worked in the private sector for 10 years and found it pretty much either a form filling exercise or an excuse for a manager to be a bit of a *** if they didn't like you etc.
Don't know about the other public sector bodies.

kiersm

My department doesn't have PMDS so haven't had any exp with it. They were supposed to bring it in but havent done it so far

soden12

finisklin wrote: »

My background is in the private sector so have very limited knowledge of how the civil sector/public sector (thanks for the distinction between the two, BTW!) works. From what I can see there doesn't appear to be a formal HR function within government departments or local authorities.

The question then is how is HRM and best practise regarding people management, career development, recruitment, training, performance appraissals etc take place in the Civil & Public sector, if at all? Is there a formal HR person in place to manage these key areas?

In the private sector you have a review every year where your personal development plan is outlined and reviewed for the previous year. Personal objectives that were set regarding specific projects or development areas are assessed and at the end of your review your line manager grades your performance for HR. This takes the form of something like excellent, very good, good, average, poor, needs improvement etc.

Further, in the interview process and especially at the first interview - is this not competency based (as in the private sector) where a candidate can be assessed to determine firstly if they can do the job as per the specification? It really doesn't matter what level job it is as competency is critical to see if the candidate can do the job outlined.

Interesting to get the view of somebody within the civil or public service.......

You're right. No organisation in the public service has a HR department. All recruitment and development is based on the whim of a low-level manager. Sort of like the banks really.

scico rocks

Hi everyone,
Just to relay my better halfs experience from working in the Social Welfare in Waterford. She was there nearly two years on contract. She is educated up to degree level and enjoyed working there. She now works in the private sector.
The one thing that got her frustrated was the managers kids all getting summer jobs and even permanent positions that were not advertised. She is gone from there approx 18 months, so cant comment on what its like now.