Yeast question: did i wreck my first brew?

thebigbiffo

Hi All,

I started my first brew last night and (stupidly - long story short) didn't follow the instructions properly.

It's 2 issues, both to do with the yeast. Firstly, I sprinkled the yeast into 100ml of just boiled water - ie. i doubt that the water was in the recommended 30 - 35 degree range. It did however sit for the recommended 30 minutes. Then i added the yeast mixture to the (i think it's called) wort - the mixture of the can of 'syrup' and 2-3 litres of boiled water - BEFORE i filled up the container with cold water.

If anyone could advise me whether the yeast is likely dead and if it's possible to save the mixture I'd very much appreciate it. For example, could I just get more yeast and add it this evening?

It's Cooper European lager that I was using.

Any help very much appreciated. If the experts here can advise me before lunch I can either run down and get more yeast or a whole new kit depending on how badly I've screwed up .

Thanks in advance, any questions gladly answered!

rubadub

The yeast is probably dead. It is a micro organism and too high a temp will kill it. Also high sugar content will kill it so always add it to a diluted brew.

If you get more yeast you can use it and it should be fine, I would take a cup of your wort back out and make a new starter yeast, then add this back to the main batch.

Get your yeast ASAP so no other yeasts/contaminations can take hold. If there is any delay in getting new yeast keep the brew cold.

Some brew shops do not stock beer yeast, only wine yeasts. If there is no beer yeast personally I would buy another beer kit and use half of its packet of yeast, and then store it in a cool dry place until I am using that next kit. -or you could use the whole packet from the new kit and buy more beer yeast online or in another shop. But do act quickly!

thebigbiffo

rubadub wrote: »

The yeast is probably dead. It is a micro organism and too high a temp will kill it. Also high sugar content will kill it so always add it to a diluted brew.

If you get more yeast you can use it and it should be fine, I would take a cup of your wort back out and make a new starter yeast, then add this back to the main batch.

Get your yeast ASAP so no other yeasts/contaminations can take hold. If there is any delay in getting new yeast keep the brew cold.

Some brew shops do not stock beer yeast, only wine yeasts. If there is no beer yeast personally I would buy another beer kit and use half of its packet of yeast, and then store it in a cool dry place until I am using that next kit. -or you could use the whole packet from the new kit and buy more beer yeast online or in another shop. But do act quickly!

as i thought you have confirmed my worst fears! the yeast must be dead then - between putting it into boiling water and then straight into the high sugar content of the only partially diluted wort it's probably been killed twice over!

I'll search online now for brewing shops in Dublin to try and get more yeast - maybe i can find somewhere that'll sell it to me seperately but if not a whole new kit shall be bought.

Just one clarification on your post of i may...when you say 'take a cup of wort back out and make a new starter yeast' how does this work or what's the process? I would have just started the yeast from scratch again ie. 30 degree boiled water, yeast goes in, leave for 30mins and add to the mixture then.

thanks a mill though for letting me know the whole thing isn't shagged justed yet!

rubadub

thebigbiffo wrote: »

'take a cup of wort back out and make a new starter yeast' how does this work or what's the process? I would have just started the yeast from scratch again ie. 30 degree boiled water, yeast goes in, leave for 30mins and add to the mixture then.

Usually people will add yeast to a small bit of the wort (you can just use water), the yeast really needs sugars to get going properly, and water will have none (it will just hydrate the yeast which is good too but I prefer getting it properly going).

Imagine a giant vat of wort, if you dropped yeast it then it would sort of get lost in the vast amount of liquid. When doing a starter yeast you have loads of yeast in a small amount of wort -so it gets established very quickly and takes over the brew and begins to multiply rapidly, then this is added to the brew and it all takes off quickly.

You should be as clean as possible, you can clean a glass or jug on the outside and inside, then scoop out some wort and pour it into a new clean jar or glass and add your yeast. If you are really worried you could reboil this wort but be sure to let it cool, it must be fully luke warm.

http://www.howtobrew.com/section1/chapter6-5.html

thebigbiffo

help and advice very much appreciated rubadub. hepefully i can salvage this brew!

guildofevil

Actually, thebigbiffo did rehydrate the yeast correctly (and then killed it stone dead by throwing it into hot wort).

It is best to reydrate yeast in 100ml of 30C-35C water, not wort, then pitch the resulting slurry into the wort 20 minutes later. When the yeast cells are rehydrating they don't have the ability to control what passes through their cell membrane yet, so sugars and other stuff can get into places where it doesn't belong and kill the cell. When Palmer talks about sugar in the link you posted rubadub, he is talking about "Proofing" the yeast; checking whether the yeast is active or not, which is done after the yeast has fully rehydrated. Proofing is not actually necessary and is no longer considered best practice. Palmer does not recommend it in the current edition of that book.

It doesn't matter all that much anyway, because there is plenty of yeast in a pack. You can get away with sprinkling dry yeast on top of the 20(ish)C wort and the survivors will be enough to do the job, but rehydrating with warm water first is the best way to get the maximum number of viable yeast cells.

You can get a replacement pack of yeast in My Beer and Wine in Rathmines. I like Danstar Nottingham, which is a clean ale yeast, but SafAle US05 would be a good option for that kit too.

Do not get a lager yeast, as a true lager yeast needs to ferment at 8C-10C, which requires fermentation temperature control.

thebigbiffo

guildofevil wrote: »

You can get a replacement pack of yeast in My Beer and Wine in Rathmines.

i've been trying to call these all morning and there's still no answer

thanks for the response

The_B_Man

ye they dont open on sundays. i walked passed the shop yesterday and the shutters were down.

thebigbiffo

i've tried calling them 3 or 4 times already this morning and no answer despite their website saying they should be open today. whats wrong with these people, dont want business

oblivious

Grape and grain delivers in dublin http://www.grapengraindublin.com/

rubadub

guildofevil wrote: »

Actually, thebigbiffo did rehydrate the yeast correctly (and then killed it stone dead by throwing it into hot wort).

I think he did kill it at the start, reading this it was tossed into hot water at the start.

thebigbiffo wrote: »

Firstly, I sprinkled the yeast into 100ml of just boiled water - ie. i doubt that the water was in the recommended 30 - 35 degree range

guildofevil wrote: »

When the yeast cells are rehydrating they don't have the ability to control what passes through their cell membrane yetl.

Interesting stuff, thanks for the info, I never heard of this before. My first yeast experience was with baking and I was always told to add sugar at the start. I have not read up on brewing beer in years so must read up if other practices have changed.

TBH when I was brewing 90% of the time I never bothered with starters, I just tossed the yeast into the brew and they all worked out just fine.

oblivious

rubadub wrote: »

TBH when I was brewing 90% of the time I never bothered with starters, I just tossed the yeast into the brew and they all worked out just fine.

It will and because the yeast packs are generally designed to ferment out a wort of 1.060 at up to 25 litres, there is a bit of leeway if you are doing a strandard ale/lager at 1.040-1.045 21 litres. But you will reduce viable cell number, which can lead to improper attenuation, allow and infection to take hold or over abundant ester/ higher alcohols.

But it’s not a starter your just rehydrate the cell to control osmotic pressure. Starter are to produce cell mass Commercial packs of the same dry yeast will recommended rehydrating the yeast

rubadub

Once source of beer yeast I completely forgot about is from bottle conditioned beer. I have no experience using bottle conditioned beer yeast (i.e. getting a cloudy beer in the offie and mixing the dregs with the yeast into your beer).

I am not sure
1. if it is even viable -or would it be killed during subsequent processing (depends on brands I would think).
2. is this yeast a different type especially added for the bottle ferment stage.
3. is the yeast Ok since it is already sitting in ~5% beer, so is it too aged or something?

oblivious

rubadub wrote: »

Once source of beer yeast I completely forgot about is from bottle conditioned beer. I have no experience using bottle conditioned beer yeast (i.e. getting a cloudy beer in the offie and mixing the dregs with the yeast into your beer).

I am not sure
1. if it is even viable -or would it be killed during subsequent processing (depends on brands I would think).
2. is this yeast a different type especially added for the bottle ferment stage.
3. is the yeast Ok since it is already sitting in ~5% beer, so is it too aged or something?

People do re culture from bottle and it can be great way to get unique yeast. But there are few problems to be aware

Many yeast cultures are available to buy from Wyeast White labs in easy to use form through the home brew company.ie, the like of Chimay, fullers and many more

Many bottle conditioned yeast use a lager yeast to secondary condition and not the primary, this included nearly all of the German hefe, exception is Schneider: Aventinus and their standard Hefe . Here is a good guide to who is using the primary yeast in the bottles http://www.nada.kth.se/~alun/Beer/Bottle-Yeasts/

Lower alcohol and freshness are key, with fresh bottle conditioned been key to re culturing the yeast, it can be fun to do. Dungarvan Brewing Company bottle conditions and many are an easy one to cut you teeth on and since they are local there is much better chance of fresh beer.

thebigbiffo

Ok my head's offically wrecked :mad::(

I put the above debacle behind me and started an entirely new brew. Same again, Cooper International Lager. At about 8pm last night I cleaned the fermenter with boiling water (loads), i mixed the 'syrup' with a few litres of boiling water and the sugar and ensured it dissolved, i topped up to about 20 litres with bottled water and checked the temp (came in about 18) so i topped up with boiling water and the temp was about 26 (at this stage, i broke the thermometer by letting it drop ). i sprinkled the yeast over the mix as recommened by the guy in the shop, stuck the lid on and carried up to the hotpress...i get up this morning expecting to find a large head and loads of activity and instead i see a flat, dead looking film on top of the wort! I mean it should be bubbling away in there right? the temperature was definitely in the correct range for the yeast when added and there is no way the temp could have dropped below 18 over night (at least i very much doubt it!).

guys, you've been really helpful above but i thought best to just start from scratch again - what could have possibly gone wrong here!? or am i just freaking out prematurely!? i was under the impression there's be serious activity in the first 12 hours!

Degsy

thebigbiffo wrote: »

Ok my head's offically wrecked :mad::(

I put the above debacle behind me and started an entirely new brew. Same again, Cooper International Lager. At about 8pm last night I cleaned the fermenter with boiling water (loads), i mixed the 'syrup' with a few litres of boiling water and the sugar and ensured it dissolved, i topped up to about 20 litres with bottled water and checked the temp (came in about 18) so i topped up with boiling water and the temp was about 26 (at this stage, i broke the thermometer by letting it drop ). i sprinkled the yeast over the mix as recommened by the guy in the shop, stuck the lid on and carried up to the hotpress...i get up this morning expecting to find a large head and loads of activity and instead i see a flat, dead looking film on top of the wort! I mean it should be bubbling away in there right? the temperature was definitely in the correct range for the yeast when added and there is no way the temp could have dropped below 18 over night (at least i very much doubt it!).

guys, you've been really helpful above but i thought best to just start from scratch again - what could have possibly gone wrong here!? or am i just freaking out prematurely!? i was under the impression there's be serious activity in the first 12 hours!

Relax..give it time and it should start to ferment..the yeast needs time to get cracking on the wort and this can take a couple of days.
Maintain the temperature and try to avoid peeking into the fermenter,it will happen!

mayto

It can take up to a few days for it to start fermenting. Is there a foamy layer,the krausen, on top of the beer ?. Would be very surprised if it did not start fermenting as yeast was added to fairly warm wort and the yeast would start eating up the sugar. The hotpress will probably be too hot for the beer as ideally you want if fermenting in the 18C to 20C range. It should be fine in a room with a blanket around it.

thebigbiffo

Degsy wrote: »

Relax..give it time and it should start to ferment..the yeast needs time to get cracking on the wort and this can take a couple of days.
Maintain the temperature and try to avoid peeking into the fermenter,it will happen!

thanks degsy, maybe i am freaking out a bit. what i was thinking after posting this is that maybe i shouldnt have put the lid on so quick. someone in work pointed out yeast needs air to work and i started thinking that maybe that was the problem.

i'll give it a couple of days then - fingers crossed!

thebigbiffo

mayto wrote: »

It can take up to a few days for it to start fermenting. Is there a foamy layer,the krausen, on top of the beer ?. Would be very surprised if it did not start fermenting as yeast was added to fairly warm wort and the yeast would start eating up the sugar. The hotpress will probably be too hot for the beer as ideally you want if fermenting in the 18C to 20C range. It should be fine in a room with a blanket around it.

there was a foamy layer on the wort when i added the yeast - a result of my mixing and stirring etc. but this morning - although i didn't open the lid to check, just looked in - it was more like irregular patches 'scum' for want of a better word! certainly not foam and not bubbly or anything.

tbf the hot press is not very warm - air temp is only about 22 so it should be within the recommended 21-27 range.

it's just that all the instructions i've read have said 'most of the activity happens in the first 12-24 hours' - and that's why i'm worried i've f'ucked up twice in 2 attempts!

rubadub

thebigbiffo wrote: »

someone in work pointed out yeast needs air to work and i started thinking that maybe that was the problem.

The wort needs to have oxygen in it to work well, the yeast mulitplys rapidly when it is oxygenated, then when it is established you want an airlock on it and a layer of CO2, since you have enough yeast and want the yeast to eat up the sugar and make alcohol (rather than more and more yeast).

This is more a problem for people making wort where they have boiled up ALL of the water being used, boiling the water would drive out the gases. I used to aerate worts with a pasta strainer, sort of like this but smaller holes.

I would dip it in and lift it up high and get loads of steams of wort exposed to air. Some people use airstones and pumps, like in aquariums.

As you used bottled water it should be OK, make sure it is fully stirred up as a dense layer of syrup can lie at the bottom of the container if not stirred properly from the start.

This is also where a starter yeast can be helpful, now I have learned it is better to hydrate the yeast first, but you can still add this to a smaller amount of wort. Say you got a 3L lemonade bottle -half fill it with wort and shake the hell out of it for 2 mins, now it is nicely aerated and the yeast should take off like a rocket, then add to the main brew.

thebigbiffo wrote: »

it's just that all the instructions i've read have said 'most of the activity happens in the first 12-24 hours'

I have always found brew manufacturers invariably overestimate how short it takes to brew their products.

This one claims to get to 14% in 24hours!


I have used it and it was fast, but not 24hrs.. I had many beers that took several days to take off.

I would just sit back and relax, a watched kettle never boils, and a watched brew never ferments! hold your ear closely to the barrel and you should be able to hear if it is bubbling.

thebigbiffo

thanks again for another informative post rubadub!

yeah maybe i just need to chill on this for a while (even if now i can't help thinking i didn't aerate the wort enough ).

i'll leave it a few days and see what happens. will get back on progress and probably with more noob style questions!

rubadub

thebigbiffo wrote: »

(even if now i can't help thinking i didn't aerate the wort enough ).

YOur bottled water should be fine, though it is not fizzy with oxygen there should be enough, flat water tastes horrible, I work in the beverage industry and we had blind tasting done on water which was boiled and let cool completely, it is vile stuff! so most bottled water should have sufficient air in it.

Bottled water is an expensive way to go, a regular britta filter would be far more economical, and in blind tastes many prefer it over bottled -which can be sitting on a shelf in plastic in sunlight for months. You can also just leave your brew water sit and the chlorine will naturally just dissipate out after an hour or so. In the summer time bacteria is a problem, so they add more chlorine to your tap water, in the cold weather we have now it should be far less -BUT with areas with burst pipes they can sometimes increase the chlorine in case there are leaks into the supply. -a quick sniff usually tells you.

I mentioned an airlock to keep out oxygen but it is not essential, CO2 is denser than air so it forms a layer on the top of your brew. A loose lid on the fermenter is fine,