Planners, bankers, developers, politicans - but never the farmers, why?

sparkling sea

I cant help but question why bankers, developers politicans, etc are quite rightly vilified for the greed that prevaded in our society during the "Celtic tiger " era but I here very few people critise farmers who sold farms for hundreds of thousands or even millions of euros.

Millions and millions of euros were paid by developers to farmers for land in the boom. Farms are now being snapped back up, for a fraction of the cost developers paid for them by some now extremely rich farmers.

Housing sites in the country side cost as much and sometimes more than the cost of building houses yet builders and developers are seen as greedy and explotative but farmers are not - why does this happen I wonder?

Dob74

To be fair to farmers the reason land is so expensive is to do with our planning laws.
The politians make the rules, the banks provide the funds. To be honest most of the developers hadnt a pot to piss in and where just front men for the banks.
But land prices in this country have ruined us. 50 million for an arce of ground give me a break

mikemac

They sold the land for what they were offered, if you were offered big money for land would you nobly refuse and instead sell it for agricultural values?

When you go OP go to sell your house and any land you may own you'll look for the best offers, what did the farmers do differently?

They were made an offer and so sold it.

Lapin

sparkling sea wrote: »

Millions and millions of euros were paid by developers to farmers for land in the boom. Farms are now being snapped back up, for a fraction of the cost developers paid for them by some now extremely rich farmers.

Good luck to them.

Its called supply and demand. Thats the way the world works.

catbear

If farmers are at fault for selling overpriced land then then house buyers were equally to blame for this mess by buying overpriced house that were built on that land. It comes back to the bankers and the politicians who let them away with wrecking the gaff.

Essexboy

Because there are lots of farmers in the country but few bankers etc.
Politicians can afford to attack the speculators withour fear of damaging their chances of re-election but upset the rural lobby and they are in trouble.

Ever notice that at local authority level any complaint about poor service from any public organisation is always qualified by "I am not blaming the staff", even when the staff are clearly at fault.

sparkling sea

Lapin wrote: »

Good luck to them.

Its called supply and demand. Thats the way the world works.

Good luck to them - yes the old attitudes are hard to break - would you say the same about politicans - I hope not:)
I am not disagreeing with any of the points people but they are still the ones who made millions and in alot of cases they drove the prices up.

Supply and demand relates to developers and bankers as well the only difference being developers paid alot for the land and also had building costs to consider when deciding on the cost of their product which had to affect their profit. Bankers give tracker mortages again this had to affect the profit.

My question isn't were farmers fight to had made so much money but stay silent about it - its why planners, developers, bankers, etc are seen as greedy and grabbing and are vilified because of their greed but farmers how also drove up the price of land are not.

I have nothing against farmers - I am just wondering why they are so well protected by everyone? They seem to have managed to keep under the radar - why?

gandalf

sparkling sea wrote: »

I have nothing against farmers - I am just wondering why they are so well protected by everyone? They seem to have managed to keep under the radar - why?

Well assuming they paid tax on any profit they made from the land they weren't exactly protected.

It was not up to them to ensure the transaction fitted society's needs that was for the politicians to legislate for (which they failed to do), it also wasn't the remit of the farmers to ensure that the banks and developers had a sound and competent business plan in place to ensure a proper return from the investment and to ensure that over the odds prices like those these lands commanded were paid.

The politicians and planners should have ensured that any developments met the needs of society and had the services in place to ensure a decent quality of life for those that chose to live there. The banks had the responsibility to ensure that the developments that they choose to invest in via developers were properly analysised for risk. It is obvious to all now these actions did not occur and we are now in the mess this failure has created.

If you are selling something then you always try and get the best price possible and in most cases that price is dictated by the market. You normally do not have control over this.

Unless "the farmers" you refer to were in cahoots with politicians and bankers to get unreasonable returns from their lands in the form of rezoning under influence I do not see a problem with them making the market value from their lands. If they were involved in rezoning under influence then the book should be thrown at them.

Minister Boyce

Perhaps a little more thought should have been undertaken before you try to blame farmers to the obvious flaws, loop holes and ineffectiveness of our Planning Legislation and our flawed local government structure.

The old mindsets and attitudes that currently exist will of course be hard to shift but that all falls back to parish pump politics which is being covered on another thread me thinks

Balmed Out

Why would you blame a farmer before yould blame anyone who bought or sold a house in the last 10 years?

GSF

Farmers are cute enough not to flaunt their wealth

bladespin

The farmers didn't start the bidding war, that was the developerd enabled by the banks and planners. The farmers certainly didn't refuse the money but they can't be accused of causing the crisis.

sparkling sea

Again I am not trying to blame the farmers - I do however feel that they have put forward the arguement that they are protectors of the land on many any occassion - they are also quick to say they are underpaid protectors of the country side but yet they sold one off sites for ridiculous amounts of money.

Balmed Out

Most farmers didnt sell any land. Why would you blame them ahead of people who fueled the boom by paying ridiculous amounts or expecting ridiculous amounts for property? What about those charged with monitoring the banking system?

sparkling sea

I live in the country and you can't drive down one road without coming upon somebodies house - I know alot of the one off housing sites were sold by the local farmers. I would also have to say I know alot of farmers who made alot of money. They seemed to be experts in the planning process and who to contact, how much to donate to the county council, etc.

I actually tried to buy a site myself and I couldn't believe the amount of funny business I was ask to comply with if I was to be allowed buy it.The site I was buying went up from the original asking price of €75,000 to €150,000 within the space of 13 months, and in the end I decided not to go for it as it appeared to me the the framer and county council "were in it together" for want of a better saying.

The other thing I find quite strange is that I guy I know quite well sold his farm for an extraordinary amount of money but because of planning issues and timing the developer did not proceed with the housing plan. This chap is of course going to buy his farm back and if you ask how it has all worked out so well for him, he just laughs but not in a funny. He has told I need to learn to nod and wink more believe it or not.

At this stage it little matters but I know some builders who are broke and alot of their problems stem down to planning issues and paying to much for land but they get lambasted however I also farmers who say they have played the long game and laugh

gandalf

If as you say some farmers were involved with getting agricultural land rezoned then yes they should be held to account along with those in the councils who aided them. If you have proof of this you should report it to the Gardai.

irishh_bob

Essexboy wrote: »

Because there are lots of farmers in the country but few bankers etc.
Politicians can afford to attack the speculators withour fear of damaging their chances of re-election but upset the rural lobby and they are in trouble.

Ever notice that at local authority level any complaint about poor service from any public organisation is always qualified by "I am not blaming the staff", even when the staff are clearly at fault.

its like the recent budget cuts to the blind and the disabled , no TD ever lost his or her seat by ignoring the blind vote ( such is thier small number ) yet the likes of jackie healy rae and michael lowrys number one condition for supporting the budget was that pensioners be left untouched

thebman

sparkling sea wrote: »

I cant help but question why bankers, developers politicans, etc are quite rightly vilified for the greed that prevaded in our society during the "Celtic tiger " era but I here very few people critise farmers who sold farms for hundreds of thousands or even millions of euros.

Millions and millions of euros were paid by developers to farmers for land in the boom. Farms are now being snapped back up, for a fraction of the cost developers paid for them by some now extremely rich farmers.

Housing sites in the country side cost as much and sometimes more than the cost of building houses yet builders and developers are seen as greedy and explotative but farmers are not - why does this happen I wonder?

The reason farmers got more than the developer could realistically afford is due to the greed of the property developer who believed houses = free money and didn't think they needed a business plan. How is the farmer supposed to know the property developers unattainably borrowed all the money?

Seriously all the farmer did was get offered crap loads of money for land that in many cases was lying idle or that over the farmers lifetime could never make that much money so he took the money being pushed at him.

You can talk about farmers in dodgy decisions but there are also farmers in the area back home that told developers no, only to have them come back again and again and again offering more and more money each time.

For every story with a farmer, there is another story almost exactly the opposite.

/not a farmer.

sparkling sea

thebman wrote: »

Seriously all the farmer did was get offered crap loads of money for land that in many cases was lying idle or that over the farmers lifetime could never make that much money so he took the money being pushed at him.

You can talk about farmers in dodgy decisions but there are also farmers in the area back home that told developers no, only to have them come back again and again and again offering more and more money each time.

For every story with a farmer, there is another story almost exactly the opposite.

/not a farmer.

I agree with you but the same could be said for small developers and even many people who work in the banks, no doubt even some politicans however radio programme talk shows constantly tell stories of people in these sectors being vilified.

I dont think all these people gained and I dont think all farmers gained - thats not the question I am asking. Many people in the local pub will moan about people in all these sectors but the only person I have heard pointing out that farmers also drove the cost of land and houses was Vincent Browne.

How have they escaped the radar?

sparkling sea

gandalf wrote: »

If as you say some farmers were involved with getting agricultural land rezoned then yes they should be held to account along with those in the councils who aided them. If you have proof of this you should report it to the Gardai.

Really, thanks I'll head off down to the Gardas now, shouldn't cause me any hassele in this corrupt little country we live in, should it. Hang on though, theres more than one way to skin a cat and to be honest I would wager thay some Gardai are as corrupt and more of them too lazy to be actually interested even if they are well aware of the problems that have existed here.

Also I have studied Evidence Law in Ireland and its not as simple as you think.

Liam Byrne

sparkling sea wrote: »

I cant help but question why bankers, developers politicans, etc are quite rightly vilified for the greed that prevaded in our society during the "Celtic tiger " era but I here very few people critise farmers who sold farms for hundreds of thousands or even millions of euros.

Millions and millions of euros were paid by developers to farmers for land in the boom. Farms are now being snapped back up, for a fraction of the cost developers paid for them by some now extremely rich farmers.

Housing sites in the country side cost as much and sometimes more than the cost of building houses yet builders and developers are seen as greedy and explotative but farmers are not - why does this happen I wonder?

How many farmers are we bailing out ? How many farmers have robbed us by claiming unwarranted "expenses" and ended up at tribunals ?

The issue isn't about politicians or bankers being greedy and getting caught out and paying the price; the issue is that they were greedy and got caught out, brazened it out, and the rest of us are being robbed in order to pay for THEIR greed.

If someone took €22,000 off me to pay a farmer who gambled, I'd complain the same way as I currently do about the other shower of con-men.

melekalikimaka

catbear wrote: »

If farmers are at fault for selling overpriced land then then house buyers were equally to blame for this mess by buying overpriced house that were built on that land. It comes back to the bankers and the politicians who let them away with wrecking the gaff.

its neither the bankers nor the politicians, its greed on the part of the house buyers. the banks nor the politicians forced the houses on the people, their greed fed them into the mess they are in, the banks merely facilitated the greed, the banks never were or will be a moral compass nor did they every claim to be, the sooner we accept this and grown up and stop blaming others, the sooner we can get out of this hole that is self denial

Liam Byrne

melekalikimaka wrote: »

its neither the bankers nor the politicians, its greed on the part of the house buyers.

Ah yes, it's very "greedy" and everybody wanted to be charged twice what a house was worth. :rolleyes:

As a fairly recent house buyer I can categorically 100% say that you're wrong. I refused the unaffordable loan that was offered, even though I would have absolutely loved to have the end result.

thebman

sparkling sea wrote: »

I agree with you but the same could be said for small developers and even many people who work in the banks, no doubt even some politicans however radio programme talk shows constantly tell stories of people in these sectors being vilified.

I dont think all these people gained and I dont think all farmers gained - thats not the question I am asking. Many people in the local pub will moan about people in all these sectors but the only person I have heard pointing out that farmers also drove the cost of land and houses was Vincent Browne.

How have they escaped the radar?

Those small developers aren't being vilified either generally as they are small fish. Maybe in the areas they live in where there is a half finished estate by them but they are polluting the town.

As for people who work in banks, I've not heard of anyone working in the banks branches getting yelled at since they had little to do with what went on in the other areas of the bank.

The blanket term builders and developers is used as someone else pointed out as they are is NAMA and nationalised banks. There is also Fianna failure and other terms going around,

I think another reason land owners are not being singled out is because nobody knows any high profile ones to name. They don't really own big companies or have business fronts. They are in the bankground of our society.

People do accuse landlords of being partly responsible, again because they see them on a day to day basis. Few people have to actually deal with landowners.

thebman

melekalikimaka wrote: »

its neither the bankers nor the politicians, its greed on the part of the house buyers. the banks nor the politicians forced the houses on the people, their greed fed them into the mess they are in, the banks merely facilitated the greed, the banks never were or will be a moral compass nor did they every claim to be, the sooner we accept this and grown up and stop blaming others, the sooner we can get out of this hole that is self denial

Its the banks job to look after the bank, nobody should deny that. The bank failed 100% in its duty to itself and ran like a child that fell outside and cut themselves in the big bad world to the government for a bailout afterwards.

The banks greed was giving mortgages to people without proper analysis of whether they could pay that money back! The loan is an asset on the banks balance sheet and the banks decided they didn't need to perform the relevant checks to ensure it could stay a performing asset.

This is why the banks are just as responsible as the people that foolishly accepted the loan.

gandalf

sparkling sea wrote: »

Really, thanks I'll head off down to the Gardas now, shouldn't cause me any hassele in this corrupt little country we live in, should it. Hang on though, theres more than one way to skin a cat and to be honest I would wager thay some Gardai are as corrupt and more of them too lazy to be actually interested even if they are well aware of the problems that have existed here.

Also I have studied Evidence Law in Ireland and its not as simple as you think.

So basically you are basing everything on hearsay and assumptions. I figured that.

Also in your world everyone seems to be corrupt so whats the answer how do you fix the problem then?

56lcd

real farmers don't sell land.
Ireland's best hope of recovery is through it's only natural asset Agriculture

sparkling sea

sparkling sea wrote: »

The other thing I find quite strange is that I guy I know quite well sold his farm for an extraordinary amount of money but because of planning issues and timing the developer did not proceed with the housing plan. This chap is of course going to buy his farm back and if you ask how it has all worked out so well for him, he just laughs but not in a funny. He has told I need to learn to nod and wink more believe it or not.

yeah but for every one case like that,theres probably 2 or 3 who lost the lot after they had put the proceeds into bank shares.
Now they've neither farm or money.
I find,you make your own luck,winning some and losing some.
Navel gazing,jealousy,or just plain shoulder chipping is negativity anathema to making your own luck and progressing yourself.
I advise you to steer clear of that path.

sligopark

Haven't read through this but this is a novel idea - farmers are to blame for what has haapened to the Irish economy - why hadn't Seanie or David Dunne thought of this first?

goat2

Planners, bankers, developers, politicans - but never the farmers, why < >


because on that list the farmers are the only honest bunch

Min

Farmers were not responsible for the crisis, they are not the price setters, the only price that farmers can dictate is the cost of agricultural land, farmers are not involed in the price of development land, farmers didn't lend the obscene amounts of money to developers, farmers do not run the councils that changed agricultural land to residential or commercial land.

It is like blaming farmers for the cost of food when it is the supermarkets and the food processors that make the real money on the food.

the groutch

if you're gonna blame someone outside the golden circle, blame the OAPS for throwing the toys out of the rocking chair if anyone tries take even tuppence off their endless list of benefits

sligopark

the groutch wrote: »

if you're gonna blame someone outside the golden circle, blame the OAPS for throwing the toys out of the rocking chair if anyone tries take even tuppence off their endless list of benefits

not to mention the fact they were raped already by ff ...

the groutch

sligopark wrote: »

not to mention the fact they were raped already by ff ...

????

goat2

the groutch wrote: »

if you're gonna blame someone outside the golden circle, blame the OAPS for throwing the toys out of the rocking chair if anyone tries take even tuppence off their endless list of benefits

those are the very people who will not change the way they vote, so they will die voting in the same every time, does not matter what they do

the groutch

goat2 wrote: »

those are the very people who will not change the way they vote, so they will die voting in the same every time, does not matter what they do

so that's why 100,000 of them marched when they tried to means test the medical card, and even when the country is being bailed out FF are too scared to touch the pensions and punish us twice as much instead?

goat2

the groutch wrote: »

so that's why 100,000 of them marched when they tried to means test the medical card, and even when the country is being bailed out FF are too scared to touch the pensions and punish us twice as much instead?

they will see this as being a good reason to vote for them, they will tell them on the doorstep that they were against it in the first place and that is why it was reversed, the oap,s will be afraid to vote for any other party

sligopark

the groutch wrote: »

????

sorry not apparent by my post - I meant that those not getting the pension were subject to the highest of taxes rates when they worked - under the promise from FF they would be rewarded in the future ...

should they now be subject to poverty in their last days by any Irish government?

thebman

sligopark wrote: »

sorry not apparent by my post - I meant that those not getting the pension were subject to the highest of taxes rates when they worked - under the promise from FF they would be rewarded in the future ...

should they now be subject to poverty in their last days by any Irish government?

Yeah your right, lets eat the youth of the nation instead and any future their children might have too...

Those people weren't rewarded in the past 15 years? Or when is enough, enough?

Killer Pigeon

sparkling sea wrote: »

I cant help but question why bankers, developers politicans, etc are quite rightly vilified for the greed that prevaded in our society during the "Celtic tiger " era but I here very few people critise farmers who sold farms for hundreds of thousands or even millions of euros.

Millions and millions of euros were paid by developers to farmers for land in the boom. Farms are now being snapped back up, for a fraction of the cost developers paid for them by some now extremely rich farmers.

Housing sites in the country side cost as much and sometimes more than the cost of building houses yet builders and developers are seen as greedy and explotative but farmers are not - why does this happen I wonder?

"That's the way the cookie crumbles" as they say in business. It isn't the farmers fault - it's just capitalism. To be honest there are many benefits to the farmers' new found wealth. They could invest it in agricultural equipment which will help spearhead their business and increase their produce, which in turn will increase Ireland's agricultural exports and help improve the economy. Farming is a way more sustainable industry than the housing industry.

the groutch

sligopark wrote: »

sorry not apparent by my post - I meant that those not getting the pension were subject to the highest of taxes rates when they worked - under the promise from FF they would be rewarded in the future ...

should they now be subject to poverty in their last days by any Irish government?

anyone who thinks that pensioners hhave been screwed by FF are very very wrong

have a read of this

http://icampaigned.com/blog/2010/11/the-case-for-cutting-the-old-age-pension/

and how can you call any OAP's situation being in poverty?
with free medical, free travel, and heavily subsidised utilities, there's not much extra they do need to pay for out of their pension, which is now €50 higher than the dole

jmayo

sparkling sea wrote: »

I live in the country and you can't drive down one road without coming upon somebodies house - I know alot of the one off housing sites were sold by the local farmers. I would also have to say I know alot of farmers who made alot of money. They seemed to be experts in the planning process and who to contact, how much to donate to the county council, etc.

I actually tried to buy a site myself and I couldn't believe the amount of funny business I was ask to comply with if I was to be allowed buy it.The site I was buying went up from the original asking price of €75,000 to €150,000 within the space of 13 months, and in the end I decided not to go for it as it appeared to me the the framer and county council "were in it together" for want of a better saying.

The other thing I find quite strange is that I guy I know quite well sold his farm for an extraordinary amount of money but because of planning issues and timing the developer did not proceed with the housing plan. This chap is of course going to buy his farm back and if you ask how it has all worked out so well for him, he just laughs but not in a funny. He has told I need to learn to nod and wink more believe it or not.

At this stage it little matters but I know some builders who are broke and alot of their problems stem down to planning issues and paying to much for land but they get lambasted however I also farmers who say they have played the long game and laugh

So you know two farmers who did well out of the bubble and you decide to launch this thread.
Maybe the first farmer did know of ways to subvert the planning process, but so did a lot of other people.

Your second farmer was both lucky and smart.
He sold his farm for huge money, becuase some eejit developer/builder was willing to pay way too much for it, backed up by an eejit banker who was looking at a commission from his eejit bank for offering such a large loan.
Now the farmer is talking about buying it back off the bank/NAMA at cut price in comparison to what he sold it.
That is now pulling strokes, that is called smart business and if more people in the country were capable of it, then we would not be in the mess we are in today.

melekalikimaka wrote: »

its neither the bankers nor the politicians, its greed on the part of the house buyers. the banks nor the politicians forced the houses on the people, their greed fed them into the mess they are in, the banks merely facilitated the greed, the banks never were or will be a moral compass nor did they every claim to be, the sooner we accept this and grown up and stop blaming others, the sooner we can get out of this hole that is self denial

Well why would I expect anything different from someone that backs both ff and the bankers ?

Yes people were greedy, people took loans, but guess what for the most part these people are endeavouring to repay these loans.
On the other hand the ones who were supposed to be smart and reliable drove their banks into illiquidity and insolvency, only to then turn to the government to sign up the taxpayer to bail them out.
Yet some of them want bonuses for their fine work.
Oh and your government fueled the bubble by their actions and inactions, only to compund the mess in the way they went about saving the banks.

Yeah the farmers are to blame alright, but it is for not hosing down the politicans, the bankers and their apologists in a slurry pit.

Seloth

Liam Byrne wrote: »

How many farmers are we bailing out ? How many farmers have robbed us by claiming unwarranted "expenses" and ended up at tribunals ?

Just by your opening argument I'm going to base this on the unemployed,those on the dole.How many unemployed people are we paying for? How many unemployed people have robbed us by claiming extra doles and ended up in courts or not even being prosecuted. ?

See that right there just hows how stupid that statement is!You can apply that too anything.

The issue isn't about politicians or bankers being greedy and getting caught out and paying the price; the issue is that they were greedy and got caught out, brazened it out, and the rest of us are being robbed in order to pay for THEIR greed.

Do you know anything about farm finances?Much of these grants are put in place to help pay for the regulations the government put in.For instance Slurry pits are to be replaced with tanks.The tank on my fathers farm cost 60k.The government was meant to pay for some of this.This is the same as the government helping to pay for making your house green! He has yet to receive the money for over a year and has not even gotten his EU grant for over two.

The French president has such strong faith in these grants that he risked his European reputation to defend them.

If someone took €22,000 off me to pay a farmer who gambled, I'd complain the same way as I currently do about the other shower of con-men.

Again I raise my opening argument and say the same for those on the dole.With your logic I apply it to mine and claim all those on it are trying to con us.
-

Anyway the money offered to farmers were huge amounts and offered up front.I know of one man who ogt 10 million for four acres and heard of another who got 36 million for 30!.If you were offered that much would you not take it?

johngalway

Seloth wrote: »

Just by your opening argument I'm going to base this on the unemployed,those on the dole.How many unemployed people are we paying for? How many unemployed people have robbed us by claiming extra doles and ended up in courts or not even being prosecuted. ?

See that right there just hows how stupid that statement is!You can apply that too anything.



Do you know anything about farm finances?Much of these grants are put in place to help pay for the regulations the government put in.For instance Slurry pits are to be replaced with tanks.The tank on my fathers farm cost 60k.The government was meant to pay for some of this.This is the same as the government helping to pay for making your house green! He has yet to receive the money for over a year and has not even gotten his EU grant for over two.

The French president has such strong faith in these grants that he risked his European reputation to defend them.




Again I raise my opening argument and say the same for those on the dole.With your logic I apply it to mine and claim all those on it are trying to con us.
-

Anyway the money offered to farmers were huge amounts and offered up front.I know of one man who ogt 10 million for four acres and heard of another who got 36 million for 30!.If you were offered that much would you not take it?

I think you may be taking Liam up the wrong way Seloth

sparkling sea

jmayo wrote: »

So you know two farmers who did well out of the bubble and you decide to launch this thread.


Dont know where you got the idea that (a) I know of only 2 farmers who did well, I live in the country not on Mars or (b) thats why I decided to launch this thread.

I forgot some people think we live in a country were your not suppose to ask questions or have debates because its the easy thing to do. Don't rock the boat what ever you do - this mentality has served so well up to now don't you think.

I am asking the question becasue I am curious too know the answer - thats it.

jmayo

sparkling sea wrote: »

jmayo wrote: »

So you know two farmers who did well out of the bubble and you decide to launch this thread.

Dont know where you got the idea that (a) I know of only 2 farmers who did well, I live in the country not on Mars or (b) thats why I decided to launch this thread.

I forgot some people think we live in a country were your not suppose to ask questions or have debates because its the easy thing to do. Don't rock the boat what ever you do - this mentality has served so well up to now don't you think.

I am asking the question becasue I am curious too know the answer - thats it.

You can ask all the quesitons you want, but your thread title reads a bit like a statement with a why added on at the end.

How did farmers contribute to the bubble and subsequent bust ?
Well they sold their land at high prices.
Did they demand people buy that land ? No.
Did people desperately need this land, after all there were loads of house for sale ?
Did they demand the bank give the buyers huge loans that were not properly secured or without the banks doing proper due dilligence ?

Yes some farmers did make a lot of money selling one off sites, others were lucky in where they were and sold land near villages or towns, but a lot of the very expensive sites were not owned by farmers for a long time.
Remember how area around M50 Carrickmines interchange was subject of courts and tribunals over who owned it.
A lot of development land in this country had been snapped up by developers and connected politicans.
Hell we had site sold this last week in Letterkenny to LYIT and the owners were ff politican and someone connected to council AFAIK.

Why don't you next start blaming businesses and business owners ?
You know people like the Doyle family who owned the Jurys/Berkeley Court site or the owners of the Burlington or the Irish Glass bottle plant site.

These people found some greedy eejits, who together with their banking and politican friends, thought that they could make huge wads of cash flogging expensive developments, so are the site sellers to blame for the mess their former property and it's buyers now finds themselves embroiled in ?

sparkling sea

jmayo wrote: »

sparkling sea wrote: »

You can ask all the quesitons you want, but your thread title reads a bit like a statement with a why added on at the end.

How did farmers contribute to the bubble and subsequent bust ?
Well they sold their land at high prices.
Did they demand people buy that land ? No.
Did people desperately need this land, after all there were loads of house for sale ?
Did they demand the bank give the buyers huge loans that were not properly secured or without the banks doing proper due dilligence ?

Yes some farmers did make a lot of money selling one off sites, others were lucky in where they were and sold land near villages or towns, but a lot of the very expensive sites were not owned by farmers for a long time.
Remember how area around M50 Carrickmines interchange was subject of courts and tribunals over who owned it.
A lot of development land in this country had been snapped up by developers and connected politicans.
Hell we had site sold this last week in Letterkenny to LYIT and the owners were ff politican and someone connected to council AFAIK.

Why don't you next start blaming businesses and business owners ?
You know people like the Doyle family who owned the Jurys/Berkeley Court site or the owners of the Burlington or the Irish Glass bottle plant site.

These people found some greedy eejits, who together with their banking and politican friends, thought that they could make huge wads of cash flogging expensive developments, so are the site sellers to blame for the mess their former property and it's buyers now finds themselves embroiled in ?

No one demanded people buy houses either or for that matter get loans , and your recollection of why people started to buy houses to begin with is inaccurate.

I appear to have hit a nerve with this question and if your upset over it thats fair enough, I fully iunderstand what your saying but I still dont think it answers my question - we'll have to agree to differ here

goat2

Seloth wrote: »

Just by your opening argument I'm going to base this on the unemployed,those on the dole.How many unemployed people are we paying for? How many unemployed people have robbed us by claiming extra doles and ended up in courts or not even being prosecuted. ?

See that right there just hows how stupid that statement is!You can apply that too anything.



Do you know anything about farm finances?Much of these grants are put in place to help pay for the regulations the government put in.For instance Slurry pits are to be replaced with tanks.The tank on my fathers farm cost 60k.The government was meant to pay for some of this.This is the same as the government helping to pay for making your house green! He has yet to receive the money for over a year and has not even gotten his EU grant for over two.

The French president has such strong faith in these grants that he risked his European reputation to defend them.




Again I raise my opening argument and say the same for those on the dole.With your logic I apply it to mine and claim all those on it are trying to con us.
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Anyway the money offered to farmers were huge amounts and offered up front.I know of one man who ogt 10 million for four acres and heard of another who got 36 million for 30!.If you were offered that much would you not take it?

i can assure you that if some person knocked on my door in the past 10 yrs offering me treble what house is worth, of course i would jump at it, and then if they were silly enough to have borrowed all that without having a dime to pay it off, and my house came back on market at the actual value, of course i would buy it back and enjoy the profit , as what i did was honest, i was not selfish or stupid enough in the first place to borrow what i could not pay back,