Mixed messages

Whispered

I was watching another episode of "me or the dog" and something she mentioned was "you can only have one rule, he can either jump, or not".

My dog is by no means perfectly trained, but he knows what is accepted and what will immediately be stopped. In between we have some relaxed rules that we enforce or not depending on the circumstances. Sometimes he is allowed on the couch, sometimes he is not. He is nervous of going out on walks, so for the first few mins we let him pull, jog along with him, then when the "nerves" are gone, we bring him back to heal. We have so many double rules and rarely have any issues. (apart from a sulky sigh when he's not allowed on the couch)

How do the rest of you do it? Do you have very clear and consistant rules, or do you do similar to us? I can't help feeling that a trainer would tell us we're soing it all wrong. Would you consider it to be mixed messages, or is it simply a rule of "do as I say" and is that enough, so long as you have the patience to understand if the dog gets confused.

mymo

We also have varying rules, like no sitting on visitors laps (or getting on sofa while they're here), there are things they aren't allowed do unless invited to.
We have very few problems (wouldn't say none) with behavior and having different rules in different situations.

I think the big thing here is that the dog knows that NO means it stops, mine do, even when playing rough or chase, once we say no more they know.

TooManyDogs

I think that by the time a dog's behaviour gets to the stage where a professional dog behaviourist/trainer is called in then there is no space for grey areas, it has to be hard rules. In my opinion that's why tv trainers and behaviourists have as many fans as nay-sayers, what they do is extreme and either people strongly agree or strongly disagree.

In my opinion you need to start any new dog with very black and white rules, and when they're obeying them with no problem then you can relax the rules a bit. Although as soon as mine start resisting rules then it gets very black and white very quickly!

The Sweeper

I try and be as consistent as I can, only because it's far, far easier to stop a dog from doing something in the first place than it is to train him out of it. Subsequently Gus is never allowed on the couch or on the bed because the one time I let him up on the couch in the cat room, I spent the next three weeks telling him he wasn't allowed up there (because the cats were horrifically upset to see him up there - now he's not even allowed in 'their' room and a babygate across the door allows them to have some safe space away from him).

I heard a recommendation from a breeder and trainer of bouncing boxers that said spend the first 18 months being strict with a boxer and you programme in an 'off' switch so they understand they have to behave and settle and relax. Once they're 18 months to two years, THEN you can start horseplay and mad games and so on with them, because they have an off switch and will settle quickly when told. If you indulge in horseplay from the get go with them, as a lot of families do, that's how you end up with an 18 month old boxer who's tied in the back yard all day because he can't be walked or allowed into the house, and he can't even be untied in the yard because getting out the door to him involves being hit in the chest by a hysterical dog.

carraghsgem

we have been training my husbands new chocolate labrador puppy "cookie" for the last few weeks, shes about 12wks now, is getting clean in the house during the day at least, settles down when we tell her to, has learned sit, fetch and has reluctantly half learned to wait before eating her food. my husband wants to keep her as a house dog so she is learning our strict house rules, its the first dog hes had of his own as ive always been the "dog person"
he is under strict instruction that whilst i'll help out shes his puppy, he has to feed her, clean her poo from during the night, take away from her "stolen socks", train her, socialise her, walk her etc etc if he wants her to bond with him so she becomes "his dog"

lrushe

I would agree that the first 18 - 24 months of a dogs life must be a strict black and white situation and as they get older and more trustworthy the rules can be relaxed a little more.
However as for letting him on the couch some days and not others so long as he understands that he must wait to be invited up and doesn't just jump up automatically I don't see a problem.

fatmammycat

I'm a big believer in remaining constant, I think it's easier on the dog in the long run. I know a number of shocked people who had have a dog snap at them because they tried to move the dog off the bed/sofa when the poor dog was tired and allowed up there in the first place.
I think it's better for a dog to have his own bed, be it in the kitchen or living room.

**Vai**

It has to be consistent but at the same time if your dog obeys you, theres no reason why they shouldnt, for example, be allowed on the couch sometimes but not at other times. Jumping is a different story though I suppose.

I dont like Victoria Stilwell anyway, she seems to avoid problems rather than fix them. Plus that episode where she told the owners their spaniel should be put down was shocking far as Im concerned. Granted the dog had bitten the owners child but to say it could never be rehomed and should be put to sleep is awful.

fatmammycat

That's ridiculous, lots of dogs which might not suit one home absolutely thrive in another! My friend has a basset who dislikes children and would not suit a home with kids, but with her he's perfect and had never caused her any trouble. I hate to think of a dog being put down without even giving them a bloomin' chance.

Whispered

In fairness that episode was horrific, the dog had attacked all of the family members, including the father. The decision was made to put the dog to sleep after intensive training and then a sustained attack on the child, not a snap or something, but an attack. Would it be ok if we kept the topic to training? I only mentioned the programme as it was what put the question into my head.

I was advised not to play tug with him or wrestle, and they are our 2 fav games he stops when told, drops etc so again I don't see much of a problem with it.

FMC we usually allow him onto the couch, the times we don't allow it is when we have guests, when we are eating in the sitting room and when his feet are mucky, he actually tends to head to his bed on the floor himself in a lot of those cases.

fatmammycat

He's probably just impossible to resist cuddling, Whispered, I know how it is.

Oh, the Dobermann I owned LOVED tug of war, and like you dropped on command, so I never worried about that game either. He loved pastic bottles for some reason too and liked to entertain himself throwing them around.

lrushe

Whispered wrote: »

I was advised not to play tug with him or wrestle, and they are our 2 fav games

I was told the same when I got my Rottie but the girls at DTI said that was rubbish and it's actually how most people hype their dogs up before an agility course and stretch out the dogs' muscles.

Whispered

fatmammycat wrote: »

He loved pastic bottles for some reason too and liked to entertain himself throwing them around.

Harley too, his new fav toy is a coconut. It's lasting ages and he knocks great fun out of it. I'm just hoping it doesn't crack the kitchen tiles (I think the coconut would crack first right?)

The people above who say that being consistant is how they do it, do you find you're constantly "on" the dog, or do you teach a rule and that's it. (actually you probably have to spend less time correcting because the dog knows exactly what's what?)

lrushe

Whispered wrote: »

The people above who say that being consistant is how they do it, do you find you're constantly "on" the dog, or do you teach a rule and that's it. (actually you probably have to spend less time correcting because the dog knows exactly what's what?)

Imo it differs from dog to dog, of my 3 2 know the rules and for the most part keep to them. My Rottie, though v.obedient, will try and push her lucky to see what she can get away with so I find I am correcting her more than the other 2. In saying that she is still quite young (18 months) so has the attention span of a flea so I find I sometimes have to 'remind' her of the rules!

LucyBliss

We let our dogs on the couch and on the furniture beside us, but up until about six months ago, (they're two and a half now) they would attempt to jump up on visitors, which I didn't allow, unless the person themselves was as cracked about dogs as me and said it was okay.

I had to be very consistent, to the point where the conversation was one third me talking, and two thirds me telling the dogs a firm NO! But now that they're moving out of the pup stage, they need a lot less telling about things, to the point where visitors come in and after an initial bit of excitement and sniffing, they go back to their toys or just ignore the person.

kildareash

I'm a mixed messages culprit too...
When we got our pups, we had a rule that they weren't allowed up on the couch or in the chairs. Not because we're precious about the furniture but because they're cloth and would be harder to clean.
I'd say that rule lasted all of about an hour!
Now the unwritten rule is that the dogs are not allowed sit on the sofa on their own but they are allowed up for cuddles with us!
The little one Oso, vaults from the middle of the floor on to you...it's very funny. Quicker than you could blink he will be on top of you. But he's not as fond of the cuddles as Sox.

One area where I wish I could be stricter is when they jump on me, but truth be told...I love the attention!lol!
Everyday I resolve that today will be the day when I only talk to them when their four paws are on the ground, but it never happens.
Even if I've only popped to the shops for five minutes, they're so excited to see me when I get back. I love it, how could I stop them doing it?

But they're very clever and know they can't jump up on visitors.
My OH's mum is not a lover of animals and when we got the pups I was told that they would have to be kept outside when she visited.
I refused to do this, I said she would have to get used to them.
Now, whenever his family visit the pups will sniff them a little bit and then go back and lie on their bed - no jumping at all, which I'm incredibly proud of.
But when my family visit, especially my mum, they are all over them. She loves the fuss they make of her when she comes in or when we visit her. I suppose they are reading the different body language.

There are some areas where I wish I could be stricter with them, but the most damage they have done in their six months with us is chew up a few old penny's slippers, so why would I want to change them.

mymo

I agree with what some have said here, the first year or 18months you do have to be strict and consistent, after that you can relax a little.
While we do vary the rules in certain situations, we do practice the commands and the tricks they learned every couple of days, and probably always will.
My dog now knows the difference between jump (jump up onto something or over something), big jump (higher jump, over or through something) and jump up (jump onto something and wait).
I have been told that its too complicated for the dog to understand, but never had any problems.

Training can be very personal, the point I think is to get the dog to behave the way YOU want, not just to sit, walk to heal and stay.

Whispered

kildareash wrote: »

I'm a mixed messages culprit too...
When we got our pups, we had a rule that they weren't allowed up on the couch or in the chairs. Not because we're precious about the furniture but because they're cloth and would be harder to clean.
I'd say that rule lasted all of about an hour!

LOL when we moved in here and started taking in fosters, we decided on the same rule. The first pup who arrived here learned that he could crawl up my husbands leg if he was veeeeeery careful not to fall. It was so funny watching him scramble up we were too busy laughing to correct him and felt after all his hard work we should give him a min on the couch. It set a trend.

LucyBliss

kildareash wrote: »

I'm a mixed messages culprit too...
When we got our pups, we had a rule that they weren't allowed up on the couch or in the chairs. Not because we're precious about the furniture but because they're cloth and would be harder to clean.

That was my mother. She was adamant when we got our pups that there was to be no dogs on the furniture. So I spent the best part of two weeks telling them to get down off the armchair Every.Single.Time they jumped up there. Then one day I had to leave them with my mother and when I came home, I saw two small black dogs curled up together on the armchair with my mother sitting in the other armchair with her hand in such a way that she couldn't see them. When I asked her what was going on, she replied that they looked too cute and comfortable for her to move them so if she sat like that, she couldn't see them and therefore didn't have to tell them to get down. :rolleyes:

But like I said, I don't mind them beside me on the furniture so long as they know that other people are off limits unless they're invited and that is really sinking in.

The Sweeper

Whispered wrote: »

The people above who say that being consistant is how they do it, do you find you're constantly "on" the dog, or do you teach a rule and that's it. (actually you probably have to spend less time correcting because the dog knows exactly what's what?)

It's pretty much teach a rule and that's it. It's all part of the action / risk / reward circle. If the dog risks the action of getting up on the couch, what's his reward? Being up on the couch. What's his consequence? Negative voice tone, loud clapping hands, and a shove to get off the couch if he won't move, and possibly, if he's been really boisterous about it, banishment to the yard on his own for 10 minutes.

Is the consequence worth the risk for the reward of being on the couch? No, so he sleeps happily on the floor at my feet.

Chasing the cats, however - does the dog know he's not allowed to 'bounce' at the cats? (He'll do a play bounce to see if he can get them to run, and then he'll chase - or more often Sas cracks it and chases the dog.) Damn sure he knows he's not allowed. But is the reward worth the risk of me giving out to him? Darn tootin it is - bouncing at the cats is great fun and well worth the chance of being told off.

Subsequently we've had to chance tactic on the cats, and reward the dog by feeding everyone in a treat circle - so if he stays calm and doesn't misbehave around the cats, he gets to eat his liver treats on the floor in a circle with them, and the closest to him are close enough that I can put their treat in between his front paws and they'll come in for it while he gets to sniff and snuffle around their heads, which he loves.

(That treat-circle is one where I need to have my wits about me - if it gets tense or agitated it's time to stop, it always has to be very relaxed, with some curiousity, but I can only do it because I don't have a resource guarding dog.)

You set the boundaries you're comfortable with though. Gus isn't allowed on the couch or the bed, but is currently turning a toilet roll insert into confetti on the living room rug, and I'm turning a blind eye to that because I'm comfortable with him doing it.