Manager refused to let me visit doctor

LegacyUser

Just curious.

I have been quite sick for the past 2 days, and despite my better instincts, I still went into work. I had made an appointment with the doctor for today at 6pm but it was changed to 1615. My boss called down today and I advised her that I wasn't well and that I had to go to the doctor. Since I work 50 miles from home, I had to leave about 3pm.

She flat out refused. She said I wasn't going and that was that and she didn't care that I was sick. I said that I had to leave as I wasn't physically capable of being in work. It must be noted that i am with the company 6 years and have taken 1 sick day, which was nearly 2 years ago. When I said I had to go, she shouted at me, in hearing range of my 2 staff and about 4 customers that I had an attitude problem, that I was the worst manager in the area and that I was on a very thin line and lucky to have a job. She then proceeded to ring her boss and said that there was a huge problem. As a result, she created a meeting with herself and her boss next week but I was told I could leave when she had finished and she then proceeded to niggle and pick and every little thing.

Firstly, can you deny someone a visit to the doctor?

I am also very upset regarding the total lack of respect and courtesy she showed by shouting at me in range of my subordinates and customers and would like advice on how to deal with it.

How Strange

strange situation wrote: »

Firstly, can you deny someone a visit to the doctor?

This probably isn't what you want to hear but yes, afaik, your employer can refuse to let you leave the workplace during office hours for personal reasons such as attending a doctor, dentist etc. Strictly speaking, these appointments should be done on your own personal time. Any decent manager/boss would accomodate such requests if they are one offs etc but they aren't obliged to.

I am also very upset regarding the total lack of respect and courtesy she showed by shouting at me in range of my subordinates and customers and would like advice on how to deal with it.

That's a separate issue altogether and if you feel strongly about it then bring it up with HR. It does seem that she's showed a lack of dignity and respect towards you by shouting at you in that manner and infront of other people. At the least, take a note of what happened today just in case it comes back to bite you later on especially if she decides to misrepresent the facts next week to her manager.

Jumpy

How Strange wrote: »

This probably isn't what you want to hear but yes, afaik, your employer can refuse to let you leave the workplace during office hours for personal reasons such as attending a doctor, dentist etc. .

Er no. They cant. If you leave and get a doctors certificate that states you are unfit for work then any action taken against you would blow up in their face.

They also cant physically restrain you.

Jumpy

Also this is pretty close to legal advice as opposed to a PI.

LegacyUser

She cant refuse you a visit to the doctor because just for example if you fainted or something she would be in big trouble.

If u stressed to her you were unfit for work shes totally in the wrong. Usually if a boss is having a meeting with you like that you are allowed a representative with you to witness it

tenchi-fan

Personally, I'd phone in sick tomorrow. Explain to your manager when you phone in that you felt so fatigued you just had to take Friday off. If she's rude to you, take a few days next week too.

Zen65

strange situation wrote: »

Firstly, can you deny someone a visit to the doctor?

An employer is not obliged to pay you for time absent from work due to illness, including the time you spend at the doctor. If you are unfit for work, and a doctor certifies you as unfit, you can make a claim against your PRSI payments for the wages lost while you are absent.

Jumpy wrote:

Er no. They cant. If you leave and get a doctors certificate that states you are unfit for work then any action taken against you would blow up in their face.

As I say, an employer is not obliged to pay you for time absent from work due to illness. Certification of your illness does not confer any statutory rights to the employee (apart from payment from the Dept of Social Welfare). There really isn't anything to blow up here, in anyone's face. Many employers however do allow some limited number of sick days in year, and all employees are expected to treat colleagues with dignity, including when they are sick.

Although not relevant to the Op, an employer can terminate employment of an employee if they are unhappy with their sick leave absence record.

Op, it sounds like this manager is either an idiot, or under a lot of stress, or just having a really bad day. That sort of conduct is very unprofessional, and I am sure that a senior manager would agree that you should not have been treated this way.

They also cant physically restrain you.

Touché !!

Of course, we don't have the full story from you. We don't know the nature of your illness (not our place to know) but your manager may have a better idea and may judge that your behaviour in leaving when you did was not appropriate. Similarly we don't know the significance of your leaving at that precise time (maybe there was an important event/meeting scheduled, maybe there was a busy period coming up.... we don't have a full picture obviously as this medium does not lend itself to that)..... so the advice you get here might be flawed as it is based on certain assumptions.

(As an aside, while I was a young college student I once worked in a company with a guy who was forever taking sick leave, and he would often time his departure from the job for the days when work was busiest. The work was quite physical and it often fell to me to do both our workloads on these days, so understandably the manager was not impressed with his conduct.)


Be at peace,

Z

Monkey Allen

Zen65 wrote: »

An employer is not obliged to pay you for time absent from work due to illness, including the time you spend at the doctor. If you are unfit for work, and a doctor certifies you as unfit, you can make a claim against your PRSI payments for the wages lost while you are absent.



As I say, an employer is not obliged to pay you for time absent from work due to illness. Certification of your illness does not confer any statutory rights to the employee (apart from payment from the Dept of Social Welfare). There really isn't anything to blow up here, in anyone's face. Many employers however do allow some limited number of sick days in year, and all employees are expected to treat colleagues with dignity, including when they are sick.

Although not relevant to the Op, an employer can terminate employment of an employee if they are unhappy with their sick leave absence record.

Op, it sounds like this manager is either an idiot, or under a lot of stress, or just having a really bad day. That sort of conduct is very unprofessional, and I am sure that a senior manager would agree that you should not have been treated this way.



Touché !!

Of course, we don't have the full story from you. We don't know the nature of your illness (not our place to know) but your manager may have a better idea and may judge that your behaviour in leaving when you did was not appropriate. Similarly we don't know the significance of your leaving at that precise time (maybe there was an important event/meeting scheduled, maybe there was a busy period coming up.... we don't have a full picture obviously as this medium does not lend itself to that)..... so the advice you get here might be flawed as it is based on certain assumptions.

(As an aside, while I was a young college student I once worked in a company with a guy who was forever taking sick leave, and he would often time his departure from the job for the days when work was busiest. The work was quite physical and it often fell to me to do both our workloads on these days, so understandably the manager was not impressed with his conduct.)


Be at peace,

Z

No meeting is more important than your health and the OP's manager isnt a doctor therefore, not qualified to make a call on whether they should be seein a doctor or not.

Jumpy

Zen65 wrote: »

As I say, an employer is not obliged to pay you for time absent from work due to illness. Certification of your illness does not confer any statutory rights to the employee (apart from payment from the Dept of Social Welfare). There really isn't anything to blow up here, in anyone's face. Many employers however do allow some limited number of sick days in year, and all employees are expected to treat colleagues with dignity, including when they are sick.

I was more referring to any "walk out of here and you are in trouble" style comments rather than pay.

Certification vs no certification in an unfair dismissal case is also where I was pointing.

LegacyUser

Many thanks for the replies.

In relation to my illness, I was at the doctor as I said yesterday evening, and diagnosed with a severe viral infection and was certified off work until Monday 24th.

Regarding pay, it's not really something that came to mind. That said, the company do normally pay for non-long term sickness and in the event that they didn't, considering my record, it could possibly be seen as a form of unfair treatment if they are giving one facility to one person and another to another. Either way, it's not an issue currently and I don't expect it to be one.

There was no meeting scheduled. She just turned up and 10:30 that morning. In fact, she had rang another manager and said she would be down to him that morning. Nor was it a particularly important meeting - it was just a standard monthly visit. Nor was there a busy period (I work in retail. It's January. Enough said!)

dub_3

Your boss just appears to be incompetent.

Yes she doesn't have to give you time off to visit the doctor (say for an annual checkup), but most would use their discretion and let you go, particularly if you're not the type that's constantly taking sickies.

If you're too sick to work and need to leave she shouldn't have stopped you either.

Your problem is you made things too complicated and you confused her,
and she's obviously not an nice person either.

If you had simply called in sick in the morning and gone to the doctor, that strategy would have worked.

Saying you had to leave work urgently as you were too sick to continue should also have worked.

The fact that you came in to work makes it look like you were fit to work (even though you probably weren't)

Your reason for leaving early wasn't because you were too sick to continue, it was because of a scheduling conflict at the doctors office.

Of course any reasonable person should have been grateful you tried to work at all when you were clearly unwell and made no issue with you leaving.

If she couldn't tell just by looking that you were unwell, she should have just taken your word for it. (1 sick day in 6 years should entitle you to that)

I suppose you could complain to her superiours or HR about the shabby treatment you received, but maybe better to ignore it as you still have to work for this B1tch.

Zen65

Monkey Allen wrote: »

No meeting is more important than your health and the OP's manager isnt a doctor therefore, not qualified to make a call on whether they should be seein a doctor or not.

Absolutely true. An employer only decides whether to pay or not to pay you for your absence. An employer is also entitled to treat any absence from work as a performance issue (including annual leave, if it is taken inappropriately), and ultimately this can lead to dismissal.

However in Op's case it would appear that her attendance record is very good, so it really does seem as though her manager was simply making bone-headed threats against her. Op has not specified whether this sort of behaviour is typical of her manager, or whether it was unusual behaviour, possibly in part due to the pressure she herself is under. This is not a good time to be a manager in the Retail business.

Be at peace,

Z

LegacyUser

Bit awkware. I'm a he, and she's a she

It's not been the first incident. My last sickness was actually due to stress from her and I did lodge an official complaint, after she threatened with my job constantly and was very demeaning. The 'official' finding was that she didn't do anything wrong, but there was a marked change in her attitude since, but it was obvious that something was said to her, but the top brass clubbed together.

weatherguy

If you are sick then you are entitled to visit your doctor during working hours.
Produce a letter from your doctor to your boss, not supervisor, outlining your need to visit him/her.

Report your supervisor to your ultimate boss for the way she treated you; spoke to you and humiliated and embarrassed you in front of other staff and customers.

She has slandered you by stating in front of other people that you are the worse manager of whatever. You could sue for defamation.

I would not accept her bullying attitude. Write down everything she said and send it to your boss and head of HR, requesting a meeting to discuss it in more detail.

If necessary visit a solicitor and get legal advice. But I do know that you have been slandered ( the spoken word as opposed to being libelled the written word) by your supervisor and you should sue or threaten to sue her for defamation.

I wish more employees would stand up to these nasty bullies who think they have the power to ruin people's lives.

I bet if you do as I have suggested here, your supervisor will be forced to apologise to you. And by the way insist she apologises to you in front of the other staff and customers who were present when she verbally abused you.

Ask her what is wrong with your work, make her spell it out in front of the boss. By the end of the proceedings it is she who will be threading on thin ice and lucky to have a job.

If your boss refuses to do anything about your complaint and tried to laugh it off or to persuade you do nothing, then insist on the HR department handling it. And if they refuse, some small companies don't know anything about HR or employees' rights, get your solicitor to take up your case.

PS: A company had to pay €45k compensation to a worker when he sued his employer for defamation, breach of contract and constructive dismissal. He also got a year's salary up front and all his legal costs were ordered to be paid by his employer.

Zen65

strange situation wrote: »

Bit awkware. I'm a he, and she's a she

Apologies, an incorrect assumption on my part!!

It shouldn't be awkward for you though, having a female superior?


Z

tenchi-fan

Zen65 wrote: »

Apologies, an incorrect assumption on my part!!

It shouldn't be awkward for you though, having a female superior?

A lot of female supervisors can be extremely petty though. My last few managers were woman and were grand, but I endured a lot of female supervisors in the past and they can be nasty pieces of work.

Zen65

weatherguy wrote: »

She has slandered you by stating in front of other people that you are the worse manager of whatever.

This is a very grey area. If she had accused Op of having a terrible sick leave record, that would be slander as it is demonstrably untrue.

If she had said that Op was incompetent as a manager, that might be slander if she could not back it up with examples of acts of incompetence.

However by describing him as the "worst manager in the area" (i.e. comparing him to 'x' number of other managers) she is making a statement of relative merit, which by definition is subjective, and therefore is highly unlikely to be slanderous. She is entitled (indeed, obliged) to hold and state an opinion on his relative performance as his senior. Of course, to state it in this manner and to such an audience was grossly unprofessional of her.

I make this point only to dissuade Op from wasting money on a solicitor as was suggested. The legal case in point is tenuous at best.


Be at peace,

Z

Zen65

tenchi-fan wrote: »

A lot of female supervisors can be extremely petty though.

I'm fairly sure the percentage of male supervisors who can be petty is no lower. Let's not waste this thread with such an argument


Z