Religion given 4 times more hours than science in teacher training

Delirium

Really makes me wonder what sort of 'knowledge economy' can be created if religion is one of subjects with the most time allocated to it.

STUDENTS IN one of Ireland’s largest teacher training colleges spend too much time studying religion, according to a report.

Trainee primary teachers at Mary Immaculate College in Limerick also suffer from programme overload, it said – many do not have time “to critically reflect on their professional development and practice”.

The report from the Teaching Council – the professional body for teachers – said the time allocated for religion in the college was four times that for science.

While the report welcomed the fact student teachers have access to the Certificate in Religious Education on an optional basis, it was concerned at the amount of time allocated to religious education within the Bachelor of Education (B Ed) programme, in the context of the overall number of contact hours available.

It recommended the college authorities address “some inconsistency in the balance of time allocated to various programme components . . . For example, attention should be given to the fact that subjects such as science, social, personal and health education (SPHE), geography and history are currently allotted 12 hours each, as compared with the 48 hours each allotted to other subjects such as visual arts, religious education and múineadh na Gaeilge.”

The report is certain to revive controversy regarding the huge influence of the Catholic Church in teacher training. The certificate in religious studies is a compulsory requirement of the Irish Catholic Bishops’ Conference for teachers working in Catholic-managed primary schools.

These comprise more than 90 per cent of schools in the Irish system.

Some, however, have questioned whether State-funded teacher-training colleges should still require all students to complete a course in religion.

Last year a Co Cavan teacher who lost the offer of a permanent post after she failed to furnish a Catholic religion certificate was awarded more than €12,000 by the Equality Tribunal. The tribunal found a Co Cavan school had discriminated against her on the grounds of religion when she applied for a permanent post.

In the report, Mary Immaculate College is praised for the excellent work ethic of staff, its positive ethos and atmosphere and the overall positive feedback from recent graduates, principals and external examiners.

It is criticised on several fronts, however:

There was evidence, the report said, of programme overload – the intensity was such that many students lacked sufficient time to critically reflect on their professional development and practice. The problem of overload was also significant from a staff point of view.

Links between the college education and arts courses, it added, should be strengthened and made more explicit. The college should, it said, ensure the education component is afforded sufficient time so the purpose of the B Ed programme in preparing students for entry to the teaching profession can be fulfilled to the greatest extent possible.

Regarding the timing and duration of the school placement, the panel considered the timing of the placement in Year 1 was not totally satisfactory, occurring as it did before students were introduced to critical concepts in educational psychology.

The review of Mary Immaculate, which is due to be published later this week, was conducted by a panel of senior educationalists chaired by Dr Maeve Martin, former lecturer in education at NUI Maynooth.

Irish Times

Dades

I think the name "Mary Immaculate College" speaks volumes.
Depressing stuff.

Bottle_of_Smoke

Relly impressed by this report and the language it uses. Fair play to them.

Hopefully this will be used to implement change.

Also good to see it praises the work ethic and positive ethos/atmosphere at the college. Which I take at face value given the criticisms it gave about time allocated to religion.

krudler

"Sir...what makes water boil?"
"Err...God did it"

Truley

Not surprising since Science isn't formally taught on the primary school curriculum anyway, at least it wasn't when I went to school (2001)

Don't remember doing any of the physical sciences in primary school myself, just geography, history and mathematics.

Galvasean

No (formal) science when I was at primary school either. The closest we had was geography, but that rarely extended beyond learning off the names/locations of the counties of Ireland. I think the odd time we got to look at an outdated 'ploitical boundaries' map of the world. It still has the USSR FFS! :rolleyes:
I seem to recall in 5th class we kept a 'Nature studies' journal. One of the advantages of building a school next to a big marsh. This seemed to be more of a pet thing for our teacher rather than something which was on the cirriculum. She was also the one who had us growing peas in darkened jars so we could see how plants grow. Once again it wasn'ta cirriculuma ctivity since we never followed up on science in 6th class when we got a new teacher.
In contrast, I couldn't tell how many hours a week collectively we spent singing religious hymns (as 'music'), learning about Jesus (under 'history') and drawing stations of the cross (under 'art'). All of which was apparently part of the cirriculum. Heck, there was also religion as a subject, regular visits from local (always Catholic) priests and let us not forget our daily prayers first thing in the morning, before both break times (possibly after too) and just before we went home.
Actualy, considering we were only in school from 9am until 2:30 I'm amazed we learned anything constructive!

edit: Bear in mind I am 24, so it's not like I was living in the bad aul days of Angela's Ashes

eblistic

Science seems to be there now. Not sure how long is given to it...
Social Environmental and Scientific Education

Twin-go

Truley wrote: »

Not surprising since Science isn't formally taught on the primary school curriculum anyway, at least it wasn't when I went to school (2001)

But it should be.

I remember when I was in primary school Religion got nearly as much class time as the core subjects.

Time taken on religious teaching should be replaced by a useful language like French, German or even Chinese. Religous studies could come under social sience where all religions and athiesm are covered.. If parents want their children to learn about a specific religion (Which I think should be left to when the child is in Secondary Education) they should do so in Sunday School.

Zamboni

First time I read about that Cavan teacher and the equality tribunal.
Delighted.
Would a case like that set a precedent for the future?

Teddy_Picker

Galvasean wrote: »

No (formal) science when I was at primary school either. The closest we had was geography, but that rarely extended beyond learning off the names/locations of the counties of Ireland. I think the odd time we got to look at an outdated 'ploitical boundaries' map of the world. It still has the USSR FFS! :rolleyes:
I seem to recall in 5th class we kept a 'Nature studies' journal. One of the advantages of building a school next to a big marsh. This seemed to be more of a pet thing for our teacher rather than something which was on the cirriculum. She was also the one who had us growing peas in darkened jars so we could see how plants grow. Once again it wasn'ta cirriculuma ctivity since we never followed up on science in 6th class when we got a new teacher.
In contrast, I couldn't tell how many hours a week collectively we spent singing religious hymns (as 'music'), learning about Jesus (under 'history') and drawing stations of the cross (under 'art'). All of which was apparently part of the cirriculum. Heck, there was also religion as a subject, regular visits from local (always Catholic) priests and let us not forget our daily prayers first thing in the morning, before both break times (possibly after too) and just before we went home.
Actualy, considering we were only in school from 9am until 2:30 I'm amazed we learned anything constructive!

edit: Bear in mind I am 24, so it's not like I was living in the bad aul days of Angela's Ashes

Sounds pretty familiar Galvasean, and I finished primary in 2003! :eek: Having done work experience in a primary school for T.Y. in 2007, I can safely assume that little has changed.

Science was paid lip-service to, with a kind of all-encompassing science/nature/S.P.H.E/what have ya class once in a blue moon. However, religion was always prioritised, to the point that, in the run-up to our Confirmation, everything else was dispensed with for a week or so! :rolleyes: I'm quoting Galvasean's post for truth, as nearly every aspect of what he was taught is identical to what I was taught.
Also, having heard relations and neighbours talk about this, it seems that the preparation for Communion and Confirmation consumes more time these days than when I was in school, with endless meetings with priests and bishops, first confessions, 'preparatory sessions ' and so on...

So, in short, those findings do not surprise me one bit.

PeterIanStaker

I don't want to sound ould, but I finished Primary in '95 and looking back, the amount of time spent on confirmation was nothing short of ridiculous.

The higher ups in the Dept of Ed however, would prefer to maintain the status quo for as long as possible. It saddens me to say this but I think they'll resist any change towards science/ethics/social studies with delay tactics.

Galvasean

Galvasean wrote: »

The closest we had was geography, but that rarely extended beyond learning off the names/locations of the counties of Ireland. I think the odd time we got to look at an outdated 'ploitical boundaries' map of the world. It still has the USSR FFS! :rolleyes:
I seem to recall in 5th class we kept a 'Nature studies' journal.

My geography classes also had the USSR, east and west Germany, Yugoslavia etc but i'm just showing my age.

I did have a nature studies class and remember learning a bit about how trees grew, what lived in a hedge row etc, but it was minimal compared to RE.

I guess i was lucky.

Mena

Jeez, reading some of this is scary. We had an hour of religion every week and it was optional, can't recall doing anything but other classes homework in there...

(For clarity, this was not Ireland)

Edit: As far as I recall (going back to 1982 now), we had science from our second year in school onwards too.

Calibos

I am glad I am not the only one shocked by the revelations in this thread. I never realised you are all effing children!!

Finished Primary in 2003!! 2003 was yesterday!! How can you be 20 already!!

Finished Primary in 1995!! I was finished my LC and was out of school 4 years and popping pills in the Pod FFS and disgusted that they were letting in kids like the Boyzone lads

1986 was my last year of Primary School.

I can't believe that 25 years later nothing has changed.

Pygmalion

Calibos wrote: »

Finished Primary in 2003!! 2003 was yesterday!! How can you be 20 already!!

20?

That's ANCIENT, won't be hitting 20 for a while tbh.

mikhail

Calibos wrote: »

I can't believe that 25 years later nothing has changed.

Religion is a powerfully conservative force. I can imagine that was a good thing every now and again, but it's quite the nuisance these days.

goose2005

PeterIanStaker wrote: »

I don't want to sound ould, but I finished Primary in '95 and looking back, the amount of time spent on confirmation was nothing short of ridiculous.

Hadn't really thought of that, also enormous amounts of time spent on Communion and Confession, and almost all of 3rd-6th class had to sing hymns in the school choir.

crummymummy

All the more reason to send our children to non-denominational schools. Children are extremely impressionable at primary school level. I remember all the prayers and biblical stories (Zaccheus etc) that were drilled into us as kids but barely remember what we even did in R.E at second level as I was prob too cool to even listen There are 'school project' type primary establishments opening up now and it's about bloody time!

aidan24326

When I was in primary school, the Bishop would come to visit each academic year, or most years anyway, and we'd spend 2 weeks doing nothing, and I mean nothing but religion in advance of the great one's arrival. Learning sh1t off like we were preparing for an exam.

There was no science. Not even a mention of the word. What a terrible shame that so many weeks and months of a child's primary education are wasted on such nonsense as holy communion when they could be learning about the real world. The science I learned in first year of secondary school, basic biology, the periodic table, the bohr model of the atom etc, could easily have been taught in the last two years of primary school.

Truley

Really the issue here isn't so much about the amount of time allocated to religion as the shoddy curriculum national schools offer for other subjects.

As far as I am aware outside of English, Irish, Maths and Religion state schools don't have any substantial curriculum at all. No formal science programme. Physical Ed, European Language, Humanities, Sewing/Knitting/Handwork, Nature Studies... Drama, Art or Music?

I went to a Project school so sacraments weren't covered in class. But I can tell you it probably wasn't much different from any Catholic school in the country. Some teachers did knitting and recorder, another was big on PE, but it was completely at the discretion of the teacher you had. I shudder to think of the hours upon hours we spend learning off Irish passages and poems.

robindch

Truley wrote: »

I shudder to think of the hours upon hours we spend learning off Irish passages and poems.

Reminds me of the Russian friend of mine who was studying to be a lawyer here in Ireland a few years back. Part of her exams involved having a chat in Irish with some examiner or other. Helpfully, the questions were made available in advance, so she contacted a friend of mine to produce the required answers and she spent a few weeks learning by heart two A4 sheets of high-flown celtic prose, not a single word of which she understood.

And some people wonder why so many have such a jaundiced view of the language...!

amacachi

Was it just my school where about 60% of 1st class and the same of 6th class was spent just on preparation for first confession/communion and confirmation?

mikhail

amacachi wrote: »

Was it just my school where about 60% of 1st class and the same of 6th class was spent just on preparation for first confession/communion and confirmation?

The percentage seems a bit high, but between learning songs and prayers, making artwork, practice runs, etc., it wasn't a negligable chunk of time.

amacachi

mikhail wrote: »

The percentage seems a bit high, but between learning songs and prayers, making artwork, practice runs, etc., it wasn't a negligable chunk of time.

We were working on it from before Christmas and from we went back after Christmas til after communion we did nothing but prepare for it. Well, a couple of football matches a week maybe. :pac:

Sam Vimes

krudler wrote: »

"Sir...what makes water boil?"
"Err...God did it"

You fool! It's the leader!!

Daftendirekt

I don't remember too much of primary school, but I do remember religion being tightly intertwined with actual education. I don't just mean during the designated period set aside for the subject itself, but throughout the entire school day. While it varied a bit from teacher to teacher, we'd regularly have to stand for "grace before meals" (and after meals), morning and evening prayers, and even on certain occassions, the Angelus. It was even more pronounced during confirmation year, and probably during communion year too (that's a bit foggier in my memory, though). I'm only 20, by the way, so this wasn't all that long ago.

I don't recall any meaningful scientific education. We used to collect pine cones and leaves for "nature tables" and there were occasional guided tours of national parks, but as Galvasean put it, these seemed more like "pet projects" of the teachers than inherent parts of the cirriculum.

That said, I do remember during one year, we were set aside a double period every week for a couple of months in which all the pupils would be herded off to the sports hall, to have some people from outside the school show us some simple experiments, then let us try our hand at them. I didn't think anything of it at the time, but now I wonder who was behind this...

Teddy_Picker

This ^^. Sounds exactly like my school. It was also quite true of secondary school also, come to think of it. Although we were a VEC and supposedly non-denominational, we were essentially Catholic in all but name. Prayers and masses were frequent, including, oddly, one to mark the death of the old Pope.

amacachi wrote: »

Was it just my school where about 60% of 1st class and the same of 6th class was spent just on preparation for first confession/communion and confirmation?

Well, 60% might be a bit much, but certainly, a lot of class time was given over to preparation, often at the expense of other subjects.

goose2005

Truley wrote: »

Really the issue here isn't so much about the amount of time allocated to religion as the shoddy curriculum national schools offer for other subjects.

As far as I am aware outside of English, Irish, Maths and Religion state schools don't have any substantial curriculum at all. No formal science programme. Physical Ed, European Language, Humanities, Sewing/Knitting/Handwork, Nature Studies... Drama, Art or Music?

They certainly do (except for european languages). Geog, history and science are grouped under Social, Environmental and Scientific Education; drama, music and the visual arts under Arts Education. PE claims to consist of six "strands": Athletics, Dance,
Gymnastics, Games, Outdoor and adventure activities and Aquatics, but most schools only do athletics and games. There's more at ncca.ie. But there's very little accountability in Irish schools, and the cigire (inspector - I hate tokenistic use of random Irish words) only really cares about An Ghaeilge.

Truley

goose2005 wrote: »

They certainly do (except for european languages). Geog, history and science are grouped under Social, Environmental and Scientific Education; drama, music and the visual arts under Arts Education. PE claims to consist of six "strands": Athletics, Dance,
Gymnastics, Games, Outdoor and adventure activities and Aquatics, but most schools only do athletics and games. There's more at ncca.ie. But there's very little accountability in Irish schools, and the cigire (inspector - I hate tokenistic use of random Irish words) only really cares about An Ghaeilge.

Apologies if I was inaccurate, I'm only really going by my own experience of school and that of the girl I mind (who currently goes to an ET school.) She's in forth class and doesn't seem to do any history, geography or science. (Maybe a small amount in class but she doesn't have a text book or get homework on it.) PE = a football match for half an hour a week. Music education is singing. Basically the same as it was for me ten years ago.

Considering neither of us did religion in school, I think it demonstrates that it isn't just an issue that affects Catholic schools, it's a problem with the national curriculum itself. It's pretty rubbish, and religion ed is just one aspect of that :P

robindch

goose2005 wrote: »

the cigire (inspector - I hate tokenistic use of random Irish words) only really cares about An Ghaeilge.

Funny, but my memory of Kerry back in the 70's was the same -- all the inspectors ever seemed to want to hear was Irish, or at least, it was the only thing that they got upset about. Which reminds me of the guy who tested me for driving in Killarney in the mid to late 80's; he sat in a small dark room in the courthouse in the center of Killarney: he wore a vast and loose luminous green GAA geansai and addressed me in Irish, no doubt sensing from my English-sounding name that I wouldn't be able to reply in kind. What a pillock!

vinchick

There is some hope though!

http://www.rds.ie/index.jsp?a=367&n=318&p=182

Truley

robindch wrote: »

Funny, but my memory of Kerry back in the 70's was the same -- all the inspectors ever seemed to want to hear was Irish, or at least, it was the only thing that they got upset about. Which reminds me of the guy who tested me for driving in Killarney in the mid to late 80's; he sat in a small dark room in the courthouse in the center of Killarney: he wore a vast and loose luminous green GAA geansai and addressed me in Irish, no doubt sensing from my English-sounding name that I wouldn't be able to reply in kind. What a pillock!

I've always thought Irish to be a bit like Catholicism. You always feel inadequate no matter how hard you try at it. And you will always have this guilt hanging over you that you're not good enough. Even beyond school

Leonid

They should scrap religious education completely and replace it with an ethics class.

The complete separation of church and state should be made a much bigger political issue. At the moment it's lamentable with the state of the schools and the 30m debt the church owes to the state.

Get angry people!

expectationlost

Dades wrote: »

I think the name "Mary Immaculate College" speaks volumes.
Depressing stuff.

its not just a matter of expecting what you would from the name all other teacher training colleges are religious apart from the new online one and there no other choice

Pre Judas

At least the UN's reviewing the role of religion in our education system and saying it's actually a breach on our human rights. So hopefully in a few years time religion and education won't be as entangled...

http://www.irishcentral.com/news/Irelands-denominational-schools-may-breach-childrens-human-rights-111027524.html

Dades

Main problem is we're broke and people have other things to be thinking about.

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

vinchick

Dades wrote: »

Main problem is we're broke and people have other things to be thinking about.

Now would be the perfect time to do it. Trim the fat and start putting in subjects for the "knowledge" economy that Ireland is supposed to be developing.

crummymummy

vinchick wrote: »

Now would be the perfect time to do it. Trim the fat and start putting in subjects for the "knowledge" economy that Ireland is supposed to be developing.

Exactly. Chinese and Spanish for second level students and (basic)sociology/politics instead of religion for primary level.

nosietoes

I'm currently a mature student in first year in St Pat's doing a B. Ed and I have been given the opportunity to replace relgion with an ethics in education course based on the curriculum of the Educate Together Schools. This is the first time a course like this has been overed in any Irish university. Apparently the government requested this secular course to be taught. I don't know what the situation in most other college is at this stage. When Froebel college of education moves to Maynooth, they will offer the opportunity to do a secular degree too.

I haven't started the course yet, but I have a feeling that very few of the 400 first years will avail of it. I am worried about finding jobs in the majority of schools when I'm finished, but many more schools are likely to become nondenominational in the coming years.

Currently, 2 1/2 hours of religion are taught, or meant to be taught in well over 90% of our schools.

vinchick

Just read this and didn't know if it warranted a new thread so I guess I will just put it here for now!

Father hits out at school over son reciting prayers
Convictions of non-religious parents 'not respected' in Catholic ethos school system
John Downes, News Investigations Correspondent

Martijn and Finn Leenheer: Finn now attends a school in Sligo
The father of a five-year-old boy who was "horrified" to find his son was reciting prayers at school, despite having opted out of religious instruction, has hit out at the ongoing influence of the Catholic church on the Irish education system.

Dutch-born Martijn Leenheer told the Sunday Tribune he was so upset at the way his son Finn's national school in Dromahair, Co Leitrim, dealt with his concerns that he decided to remove him shortly before Christmas.

Finn is now attending an Educate Together school which is located in Sligo around 19km from his home, requiring a two-hour round trip to and from the school.

Leenheer, who outlined his case in a recent submission to the Irish Human Rights Commission, said he and his wife Amanda had enrolled their son at Drumlease national school last September because they thought it was in his best interests to be educated in his community.

On the enrolment form for the school, he specifically stated he did not wish his child to be taught the Catholic faith.

"In this section it stated that it meant my son would still be in the classroom while the religious education was given since the school is not responsible for supervision of our child when we opt him out. We were not happy with this but thought that our kid was at least free from being taught the Catholic faith," he said.

"After two months our son told us he was reciting prayers at school twice daily. We were truly shocked; did we not state specifically that we didn't want this?

"We were never informed in any way that prayers were recited twice daily and read the information pack over to see if we missed this. We could not find it mentioned anywhere."

However, when Leenheer raised his concerns with the school, he claimed he was told he or his wife would have to come to school to personally supervise Finn during school prayers, something which he said was "just not practical".

After three months, he grew so frustrated with the response of the school that he had "no option" but to send his son to the "brilliant" Educate Together school in Sligo, where he has "settled in very well".

"But all his friends from here are in Drumlease school. This is his community. This could have been resolved quite easily if the will had been there, for example the school could have allowed older kids to look after him during prayers as is the case when it rains for example. But they just weren't interested."

David O'Farrell, principal of the school, said it had a "long established tradition of promoting equality and respecting diversity."

"It is a Catholic School but for many years has welcomed children of other faiths and none," he said. "The mission statement of the school makes clear that a Catholic ethos is an integral part of the curriculum and day to day life of the school. This includes a short prayer at the beginning and end of the day". However, the statement says clearly that the "school embraces and cherishes all children equally irrespective of having religious beliefs or having none

Last week, Atheist Ireland expressed concern that the right of individuals to be exempted from participation in religious classes was a "theoretical illusion" because there were no appropriate provisions within the education system for the convictions of non-religious parents to be respected.

It's from the Sunday Tribune and it shows that in some cases the opt out isn't enough.

Galvasean

"long established tradition of promoting equality and respecting diversity."

- ME BUM IT DOES! We respect your diversity, but make you pray to our God. :rolleyes:

nitrogen

Galvasean wrote: »

No (formal) science when I was at primary school either. The closest we had was geography, but that rarely extended beyond learning off the names/locations of the counties of Ireland. I think the odd time we got to look at an outdated 'ploitical boundaries' map of the world. It still has the USSR FFS! :rolleyes:
I seem to recall in 5th class we kept a 'Nature studies' journal. One of the advantages of building a school next to a big marsh. This seemed to be more of a pet thing for our teacher rather than something which was on the cirriculum. She was also the one who had us growing peas in darkened jars so we could see how plants grow. Once again it wasn'ta cirriculuma ctivity since we never followed up on science in 6th class when we got a new teacher.
In contrast, I couldn't tell how many hours a week collectively we spent singing religious hymns (as 'music'), learning about Jesus (under 'history') and drawing stations of the cross (under 'art'). All of which was apparently part of the cirriculum. Heck, there was also religion as a subject, regular visits from local (always Catholic) priests and let us not forget our daily prayers first thing in the morning, before both break times (possibly after too) and just before we went home.
Actualy, considering we were only in school from 9am until 2:30 I'm amazed we learned anything constructive!

edit: Bear in mind I am 24, so it's not like I was living in the bad aul days of Angela's Ashes

I'm only a few years older, but I remember much the same. Thanks for jogging my memory – I will never send my children to a school in Ireland that wastes time on religion.

nitrogen

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

Very well said. Irish is definitely another waste of time. Outside of nationalism, there is no argument to teach it. And I'm with Carl Sagan on nationalism. Replacing it with a European language, Korean or Chinese would be much more beneficial for a child and make much more logical sense.

AhSureTisGrand

Wow this is scandalous! It's almost as bad as the primary school curriculum itself! Gosh!

Truley

vinchick wrote: »

Just read this and didn't know if it warranted a new thread so I guess I will just put it here for now!

It's from the Sunday Tribune and it shows that in some cases the opt out isn't enough.

Since the children have been driven out of their school, which is such a focal point in a small village like this, they have essentially been driven out of their community too. I know I always found this the hardest part of going to an alternative school, not going to the same place as the children in your area. It's a sad side effect, but of course the parents that left will be considered the contrary ones for going against the grain. They shouldn't have been put in that postion in the first place.