Overcrowding on the 4

SparkyTech

Don't know if this is a regular problem for users of the 4 but ever since the phasing out of the bendy buses and subsequent reduction in timetable the overcrowding problem in the morning service has become ridiculous, almost dangerous even. Last few days at about half 8 been using it to travel four stops down to bottom of mount st as it's come before the 7. A rugby scrum suffocating on the ground deck putting it mildly. Im only on it for 5 mins, let alone half an hour - surly this is against health and safety acts? Are drivers not obliged not to pick up passengers once a bus gets to brimming point?

Victor

There is a limit to the number of people a bus is meant to carry. This is displayed just inside the entrance.

All too often the problem is people standing at the front of the bus even though there are seats and standing space at the back.

devnull

This is what I posted in the network direct thread. Already has been at least one person injured:

am happy to say I am now a former Dublin Bus customer! The recent poor service, combined with the many cancellations over the holiday season when they were supposed to be running a normal weekday service has drove me to look for other options.

The ongoing deterioration of route 4 which has been going on for several months now has hit rock bottom in the last seven days with the removal of the bendy buses culminating in an injury to a passenger on board a double decker during the scrum to get on the bus. This is something that has got noticeably worse since the removal of bendy buses since the turn of the year thanks to the capacity reduction, in addition to the savage frequency cuts made in an earlier phase of Network Direct.

Upon calling Dublin Bus I was informed that there is no problem with capacity on this route, and the removal of bendy buses and replacement with double deckers will INCREASE capacity and efficiency and time keeping. The lack of them even being willing to listen to the views of the public, and our experiences has now led to four of us at work, car pooling rather than taking the bus. This means Dublin Bus will now will loose a few thousand euro in revenue from us not buying 30 day ramblers all year long.

They have destroyed what was one of the best routes in the city. It is now hideously overcrowded, completely unreliable, and completely undependable due to the ridiculously short running times. Dublin Bus, despite indicating they would review changes they made have basically told me they see it as a success. So they lose our business, and I'm sure others too. For those of you who still have to take the bus, the drop in revenues will probably lead to a rise in fares - a very vicious circle to be getting in if the underlying issues are not addressed.

CIE

SparkyTech wrote: »

Don't know if this is a regular problem for users of the 4, but ever since the phasing out of the bendy buses and subsequent reduction in timetable, the overcrowding problem in the morning service has become ridiculous, almost dangerous even. Last few days at about half 8 been using it to travel four stops down to bottom of mount st as it's come before the 7. A rugby scrum suffocating on the ground deck putting it mildly. I'm only on it for 5 mins, let alone half an hour - surly this is against health and safety acts? Are drivers not obliged not to pick up passengers once a bus gets to brimming point?

That's what I thought. Back during two-person bus operation days, the conductor would change the destination scroll to read "Bus Full" and operations would change to set-down only, the bus bypassing stops and refusing any additional boardings at stops requested by alighting passengers until the bus emptied out sufficiently. Per the report on this thread, it seems that DB's current operation doesn't allow for this, even with the digital destination signs that can be operated by the driver and changed to read "Bus Full" with the push of a button. Definitely dangerous, and unless mitigated, it'll progress to deadly for some unfortunate victim. :mad:

AlekSmart

CIE wrote: »

It seems that DB's current operation doesn't allow for this, even with the digital destination signs that can be operated by the driver and changed to read "Bus Full" with the push of a button. Definitely dangerous, and unless mitigated, it'll progress to deadly for some unfortunate victim. :mad:

The "Bus-Full" element is now becoming quite an issue,oddly enough reappearing at a time when the Company`s PR machinery is continuing to advise customers of an improved availability of space

There are several issues at play here,but by far the most important is the level of confidence and control which the Driver has over the journey.

A confident,capable,well-trained Busdriver will have no difficulty managing his/her journey.

This journey management will include distributing the passengers throughout the bus,ie: "Please keep the Door Gangway area clear"...."Please move down along the Bus"....."There are seats available upstairs" etc etc

All of this is far easier to do if the PA system is set-up and utilized.
No mumbling,No flaccid arm waving or ambiguous gestures but instead clear verbal direction which is an integral part of managing any mass Public Movement

However this approach can also be viewed as unnecessarily confrontational or customer un-friendly,something which has led to a diminution of focus on this important element of a Bus Drivers work.

Instead the greater part of the training focus has shifted onto the "Nice" element of Public Transport...helping old-ladies with their shopping....facilitating young mum`s with their lovely baby in the buggy and other such TV friendly stuff.

There are other elements at play also such as the fact that there is NO Bus-Full display available on the present Digital displays...this leads to a proliferation of "Private Hire"..."Special"...Coastal Tour" or "Bus Scoile" displays on view,which does nothing for the customer on the ground in making a decision whether to continue waiting or not.

With the considerable increase in Network-Direct Peak-Time service gaps I would have included a re-programming of the Destination Displays to allow for (Route-Number) BUS-FULL ! to be displayed.

Also,given that the actual Drivers Destination Monitor is remotely situated above and behind his/her right ear there would be a need for an aural signal act as a tell-tale that the Bus Full display is showing.

The issue of what constitutes a Full Bus is also not quite as clear as it seems.

The legal figures given on each bus relate to actual seating capacity to which is added a notional number of standing passengers calculated by reference to the Gross Weight which the Bus is designed to carry.

This leads to an average number of people to match the manufacturers specifications.

This "Average" may or may not equate to the number of people which may be safely carried on any given journey.

The presence of a Large Multi-Child Buggy and a shopping trolley or two will soon deplete that standing figure substantially.

This thread is yet another excellent example of exactly the type of "Public Consultation" which Network-Direct should be stimulating.

The face of Peak-Time Bus Transport is changing and,in the name of improved efficiency, it`s likely to become more capacity-critical than ever before.

The days of sprawling out over a two-seater and perusing the Paper-of-Record are fading as rapidly as taking cream-tea on the after-deck of the Titanic,so it follows that some advice of that fact would be appreciated by customers.

The decisions taken by the Network Direct team in relation to the Number 4 route are most certainly subject to strenuous arguement on a Customer Service/Satisfaction basis alone.

The interpretation that removing the largest-capacity vehicles in the fleet coupled with a somewhat argueable "Improvement" in reliability has led to a an improved Customer Experience is simply not what is being seen on the ground,in any way,shape or form.

However,as other posters have referred to,the Network Direct and Head Office teams obviously have access to far more detailed and veracious statistics which serve to contradict the experiences of many posters on Boards.ie....the question now is Who is telling the Truth ?

In the meantime the only advice I would give a peak-time Bus User is try and move as far back from the door and gangway as possible....this is THE area of greatest congestion and really is THE single greatest cause of running time issues on busy routes.....but i`m guessing this is not reflected in the Stats !!!! :eek:

starfish12

I use the 4 twice a day Monday to Friday and at the weekends, and I'm DELIGHTED that the bendy buses have been removed, almost all of the seats on them were broken, if it rained, all the inside seats on either side of the bus were wet, meaning that more people were standing, and those that were seated spent the entire journey saying, 'sorry thats seat's wet' to people who wanted them to move over.

The bendy buses regularly broke down, certainly more often than any of the other buses on the same route. I regularly was forced to get off it in town, or at grangegorman as the driver couldnt continue driving it.

Coupled with the fact that none of the drivers on the route utilised the rear door, they were impossible to disembark unless you stood at the front, which only added to conjestion. I completely agree however, that there seems to be FAR less of them since the bendy buses have been replaced.

Run_to_da_hills

CIE or the public were never trained how to use these busses.

They are designed for pre paid tickets and to have all doors operating at once for maximum flow of passengers. They are also designed for straight routes, ie along dual carriageways, park & rides, and long boulevards leading into capitals.

They will eventually pi*ss in water if they are not maintained at the articulation, and this seems to what has happened in this case. These busses have been used successfully decades on the continent and in the US.

KD345

I don't think many people realised the capacity of the bendy bus. It used to hold 145 passengers, compare that to 96 for the average double deck bus. When you reduce frequency along with capacity then you have the problems which are happening on the 4.

Just a note for anybody on O'Connell Bridge traveling to Ballsbridge in the morning and finding it difficult to board a bus, the 47 stop just a short distance away at Pearse Street (opposite Garda station). There are outbound departures at 7.10, 7.45, 8.20, 8.55 and 9.30. This is the terminus, so you'll get a seat. The 47 travels the same route as the 4 as far as the Merrion Centre.

http://www.dublinbus.ie/en/Your-Journey1/Timetables/All-Timetables/47/

KD345

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

CIE or the public were never trained how to use these busses.

Not correct, Dublin Bus trained all drivers to this type of bus and built facilities at Harristown to cater for these buses.

If you want to blame anybody, blame the government and Dublin City Council. Mary O'Rourke was minister for transport at the time, she ordered them and Dublin City Council did nothing to facilitate them.

You correctly mention these buses being used in other cities, but you'll notice how much space and priority is given in these cities. The bendy buses should have suited route 10 due to it's high loadings, but it was near impossible to pull into bus stops because of on street parking and poor road design. It was not uncommon, even up until last month, to see the tail end of a bendy bus sticking out in Dublin traffic while trying to pull into a bus stop to load. You can't let passengers on or off in these circumstances.

Cookie_Monster

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

These busses have been used successfully decades on the continent and in the US.

And by DAA.

Run_to_da_hills

KD345 wrote: »

Not correct, Dublin Bus trained all drivers to this type of bus and built facilities at Harristown to cater for these buses.

I was not referring to driver skills as I am well aware they were given special training in Dublin.

I was referring to operating efficiency to get the max out of the service.

monument

I'm still amazed that when Dublin Bus cut the 4's frequency by 30% on weekdays and 66% on Sundays, they said it was an “overall minor frequency adjustment”.

Cookie_Monster

monument wrote: »

I'm still amazed that when Dublin Bus cut the 4's frequency by 30% on weekdays and 66% on Sundays, they said it was an “overall minor frequency adjustment”.

So a freq cut of 30% and a capacity cut of 33% per bus (145 down to 96 or so)

yet its a frequent service with higher capacity according to ND

devnull

starfish12 wrote: »

I use the 4 twice a day Monday to Friday and at the weekends, and I'm DELIGHTED that the bendy buses have been removed, almost all of the seats on them were broken, if it rained, all the inside seats on either side of the bus were wet, meaning that more people were standing, and those that were seated spent the entire journey saying, 'sorry thats seat's wet' to people who wanted them to move over.

The bendy buses regularly broke down, certainly more often than any of the other buses on the same route. I regularly was forced to get off it in town, or at grangegorman as the driver couldnt continue driving it.

Out of interest where were you getting on and getting off and in which direction and at what times?

The reason I say is that the vast majority of passengers heading southbound from around near the city center between 8am and 9am, and northbound to city centre around 5.15-6.00pm are now having to see several buses go past before being able to get on since the removal of the bendy buses, if you are going against this flow, or at other times you wouldn't see the worst of it. Capacity during these times was a problem before they removed the bendy buses and reduced the timetable, and now it is much worse.

I have got the 4 regularly for almost 18 months until recently, and I've been on a bendy bus that has broken down once. This was due to someone flying into the rear of it after breaking red lights, so not the fault of the bus to be honest. The water problem I saw happen once, and I pointed it out to the driver, the bus was back the next day fixed. The ironic thing was when I reported to the driver the issue, other passengers said they had the same issue for weeks on that bus, but I was the only person who actually bothered to tell the driver - if they don't know abut it they cannot fix it!

devnull

The trouble with the bus full scroll, is it would almost certainly be abused unless it is properly policed as from my experience once that scroll is turned on it doesn't go off for the rest of the journey, which leads to a lovely situation where the driver picks up no more passengers.

All too reguarly I see Bus Eireann coaches displaying this message, and what tends to happen, is once they put the bus full screen on, it stays on, even when passengers get off and there is quite a lot of space on the bus, I've previously been waiting for a BE coach and it's said bus full, doesn't stop, and I look on the coach and it's nothing approaching full and have to wait a while for the next one.

starfish12

on at least three occasions it was due to an alarm going off that all passengers on the bus could clearly hear so i do believe it was a genuine issue we regularly got 'dropped off' at the grangegorman bus stop as the bus had to be sent back into the depot

As for the wet seats I actually rang harristown depot on a number of occasions and was always given the standard can't do anything about it answer - albeit from a couple of very helpful polite staff on the phone

I'm north side to city centre in the am and city centre northside in p
Since the reshuffle of the timetable I rarely get a 4 home as they seem virtually non existent!

AlekSmart

monument wrote: »

I'm still amazed that when Dublin Bus cut the 4's frequency by 30% on weekdays and 66% on Sundays, they said it was an “overall minor frequency adjustment”.

This appears to be the "New" reality...if one keeps repeating something for long enough then one starts to believe it....:)

Run to da Hills: They are designed for pre paid tickets and to have all doors operating at once for maximum flow of passengers. They are also designed for straight routes, ie along dual carriageways, park & rides, and long boulevards leading into capitals.

It could be argued that the 4,being one of Dublin Bus`s newer routes was in fact designed with Articulated operation in mind.
It remains an ideal route for a fleet of them,if only somebody could sit down and do a little pre-planning to tidy up the streetside infrastructure.

As to why a successful and relatively new route which closely matched the Deloitte parameters for efficiency should be systematically disassembled is a far more difficult question to answer....any takers ???

SparkyTech

AlekSmart wrote: »

As to why a successful and relatively new route which closely matched the Deloitte parameters for efficiency should be systematically disassembled is a far more difficult question to answer....any takers ???

Could DB prehaps be dissembeling numbers from stable routes like the 4 in order to facilitae the new ''super'' routes like the new 10 min frequency 128? If as DB hope, 60%ish of passengers will travel on these new cross city routes going supposedly 6 times an hour, other routes must surly have to take cuts in frequency for this to happen? Rob from the old reliables to feed the routes covering the biggest demographics and thus more mula in the fare box? (I know it sounds rather conspiracy theory like, but its hard to imagine money does not feature somewhere in the ND ideology :rolleyes:)

Devilman40k

SparkyTech wrote: »

Could DB prehaps be dissembeling numbers from stable routes like the 4 in order to facilitae the new ''super'' routes like the new 10 min frequency 128? If as DB hope, 60%ish of passengers will travel on these new cross city routes going supposedly 6 times an hour, other routes must surly have to take cuts in frequency for this to happen? Rob from the old reliables to feed the routes covering the biggest demographics and thus more mula in the fare box? (I know it sounds rather conspiracy theory like, but its hard to imagine money does not feature somewhere in the ND ideology :rolleyes:)

Explain the following then....a number of DB users here on boards (myself included )have ditched our annual/30 day tickets for cars/car pools as a result of ND "improvements" thereby cutting the cash that DB get from the only fare/pricing structure that THEY control.

SparkyTech

Devilman40k wrote: »

Explain the following then....a number of DB users here on boards (myself included )have ditched our annual/30 day tickets for cars/car pools as a result of ND "improvements" thereby cutting the cash that DB get from the only fare/pricing structure that THEY control.

I agree with you, ND has proved more counterproductive then benifical for quite a number of DB passengers who have decided out of sheer exasperation with the system to rescind on their tickets and go back to their cars.

I was referring to the poor souls of us that are forced to take DB every day out of lack of alternatives. (If I had a choice I would rather cycle but its 2 hours to my college so am forced to take 2 buses lasting hour and quater in total )

AlekSmart

SparkyTech wrote: »

I agree with you, ND has proved more counterproductive then benifical for quite a number of DB passengers who have decided out of sheer exasperation with the system to rescind on their tickets and go back to their cars.

I was referring to the poor souls of us that are forced to take DB every day out of lack of alternatives. (If I had a choice I would rather cycle but its 2 hours to my college so am forced to take 2 buses lasting hour and quater in total )

SparkyTech You,and other posters here are expressing a level of clearly worded,specific and serious problems which have arisen directly from the implimentation of the Network Direct scheme.

It appears the company is in possession of Statistical Information which sees the "Quite a number of exasperated DB passengers" as being so few as to be discounted.

To see recently introduced highly popular routes, such as the number 4 "improved" to the extent of stimulating such very public negative responses should in a normal commercial environment be ringing all manner of high-level alarm bells.

Worse still,I would class a customer who is a regular Pre-Paid ticket user to be A+ grade as this indicates a regular Bus User who is prepared to contribute to the greater efficiency of the service in general.

This is the type of Customer we absolutely need to cultivate and more importantly listen to in order to improve the service enough to attract more such bodies.

It remains beyond my understanding why these customers now appear to be expendable in this somewhat befuddled race for "Efficient,direct,reliable" services ?