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Hard times for Irish Catholics

  • 11-01-2011 11:26pm
    #1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 118 ✭✭


    I was talking to some friends earlier about the various problems in the Church

    One of my problems is dealing with the liturgical abuses. I can't go to an EF Latin Mass each Sunday, so I go the the New Mass. I don't have a major issue with the New Mass per se, but I have a problem with the routine abuses. It affects me a lot, which is why I go to Sunday Mass to fulfil my obligation but watch the daily Mass on EWTN to get a reverent Mass and a good sermon.

    We were discussing the possibility of approaching one of the priests to bring his attention to some of the abuses. We all feel really awkward though. I think there is a very strong culture, call it clericalism, that would have a priest say to a layman 'Who are you to tell me how to say Mass?'

    So I wondered would it do any good to send material anonymously in the post, or would a personal meeting do better, at the risk of rejection and victimisation?

    I don't quite know what to do.

    This article by Fr Z is interesting background. It's what Irish priests need to hear, but like so many things, these articles and books are preaching to the converted. What to do?

    http://www.catholicherald.co.uk/commentandblogs/2011/01/06/we-are-all-going-to-die-that%E2%80%99s-why-we-are-catholic/

    [In this thread I invite enlightened Catholic responses only. Rabbit holes will not be entertained.]


Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,927 ✭✭✭georgieporgy


    ubertrad wrote: »
    I was talking to some friends earlier about the various problems in the Church

    One of my problems is dealing with the liturgical abuses. I can't go to an EF Latin Mass each Sunday, so I go the the New Mass. I don't have a major issue with the New Mass per se, but I have a problem with the routine abuses. It affects me a lot, which is why I go to Sunday Mass to fulfil my obligation but watch the daily Mass on EWTN to get a reverent Mass and a good sermon.

    We were discussing the possibility of approaching one of the priests to bring his attention to some of the abuses. We all feel really awkward though. I think there is a very strong culture, call it clericalism, that would have a priest say to a layman 'Who are you to tell me how to say Mass?'

    So I wondered would it do any good to send material anonymously in the post, or would a personal meeting do better, at the risk of rejection and victimisation?

    I don't quite know what to do.

    This article by Fr Z is interesting background. It's what Irish priests need to hear, but like so many things, these articles and books are preaching to the converted. What to do?

    http://www.catholicherald.co.uk/commentandblogs/2011/01/06/we-are-all-going-to-die-that%E2%80%99s-why-we-are-catholic/

    [In this thread I invite enlightened Catholic responses only. Rabbit holes will not be entertained.]

    whereas I understand completely the liturgical abuses you refer to, and it's often painful (embarrassing even) to put up with them, I am of the opinion that lay people should refrain from button holing their local priest and pointing out his many flaws. And anonymous notes don't come across nicely either.These attempts at improving the situation will most likely only polarise it further. St Catherine of Siena recommended we should not criticise our pastors but instead pray for them so they will overcome their faults.
    lay people (clumsy expression for laymen isn't it?) should seek to improve themselves in their own arena and leave clerical duties to the clerics. If the average priest had support from good parishoners I bet it would get the result you desire (not necessarily overnight though)


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,614 ✭✭✭ArtSmart


    yes, in all fairness leave it to the priest to make those decisions.

    when it comes to giving good mass, it's best to leave it to the priests.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 118 ✭✭ubertrad


    ArtSmart wrote: »
    yes, in all fairness leave it to the priest to make those decisions.

    when it comes to giving good mass, it's best to leave it to the priests.

    Ah yes, the old 'Father knows best' mentality!

    Well, in my opinion, the Holy Father knows best. The Pope is trying his best to give the Church direction. He is giving direction, but not everybody is listening, nor willing to take direction. That is the problem.

    Another problem is priestly formation, such that priests leave seminary thinking that they can do whatever they like with the Holy Mass, so long as it's valid.

    I think that the introduction of the new translation of the Mass will give the Church in Ireland, as elsewhere, an opportunity to make a fresh start and set aside tired, old ways of doing things, which have been with us for 40 years.

    I am going to give a mug to each of my local priests before the 1st Sunday of Advent: http://www.cafepress.co.uk/BRTRANSLATION

    I think that is a subtle hint, don't you?

    464411192v6_150x150_Front.jpg
    464411191v7_150x150_Back.jpg


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,026 ✭✭✭kelly1


    Hello Ubertrad, would you mind giving examples of some of the abuses you're referring to?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 172 ✭✭SonOfAdam


    ubertrad wrote:
    In this thread I invite enlightened Catholic responses only. Rabbit holes will not be entertained

    You may have got away with this had that been a lower case 'c' .


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 797 ✭✭✭Michael G


    ubertrad wrote: »
    I am going to give a mug to each of my local priests before the 1st Sunday of Advent: http://www.cafepress.co.uk/BRTRANSLATION

    I think that is a subtle hint, don't you?

    464411192v6_150x150_Front.jpg
    464411191v7_150x150_Back.jpg
    Excellent idea. Perhaps others might do the same.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 797 ✭✭✭Michael G


    kelly1 wrote: »
    Hello Ubertrad, would you mind giving examples of some of the abuses you're referring to?
    Ubertrad can speak for himself/herself but here are a few of mine:
    • Priests making up their own words, even in the Eucharistic Prayer.
    • Only the shortest of the Eucharisitic Prayers used in most parishes. The first one, the translation of the Roman Canon, is seldom if ever heard.
    • Having to queue up to receive Holy Communion from a stationary priest or lay person, with no opportunity to receive it kneeling.
    • The priest and the Extraordinary Ministers of Holy Communion (or "Eucharistic Ministers" as they seem to be invariably, and wrongly, called) taking Communion at the same time.
    • The congregation being permitted, or encouraged, to speak parts of the Mass that are for the priest to say.
    • Ministers of the Word stumbling through readings that they have not prepared or understood.
    • Singers and musicians cavorting around in or beside the Sanctuary, behaving like performers instead of making their contribution without drawing attention to themselves.
    And that's just a few off the top of my head. Like the OP, I often have to go to Mass in the Ordinary Form because I cannot get to one in the Extraordinary Form. I try to go to churches where there are as few abuses and distractions as possible, but I still sometimes find myself at Masses where I have to struggle to concentrate — and, indeed, to suppress uncharitable thoughts about the celebrants and their lay associates.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 25,848 ✭✭✭✭Zombrex


    Michael G wrote: »
    Ubertrad can speak for himself/herself but here are a few of mine:
    • Priests making up their own words, even in the Eucharistic Prayer.
    • Only the shortest of the Eucharisitic Prayers used in most parishes. The first one, the translation of the Roman Canon, is seldom if ever heard.
    • Having to queue up to receive Holy Communion from a stationary priest or lay person, with no opportunity to receive it kneeling.
    • The priest and the Extraordinary Ministers of Holy Communion (or "Eucharistic Ministers" as they seem to be invariably, and wrongly, called) taking Communion at the same time.
    • The congregation being permitted, or encouraged, to speak parts of the Mass that are for the priest to say.
    • Ministers of the Word stumbling through readings that they have not prepared or understood.
    • Singers and musicians cavorting around in or beside the Sanctuary, behaving like performers instead of making their contribution without drawing attention to themselves.
    And that's just a few off the top of my head. Like the OP, I often have to go to Mass in the Ordinary Form because I cannot get to one in the Extraordinary Form. I try to go to churches where there are as few abuses and distractions as possible, but I still sometimes find myself at Masses where I have to struggle to concentrate — and, indeed, to suppress uncharitable thoughts about the celebrants and their lay associates.

    I'm not a Catholic (or even a Christian) so apologies if this is a stupid question, but what do Catholics such as yourself consider the issue with this?

    Is the structure and content of the Mass considered important doctrine?


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,087 ✭✭✭Festus


    Michael G wrote: »
    Ubertrad can speak for himself/herself but here are a few of mine:
    • The congregation being permitted, or encouraged, to speak parts of the Mass that are for the priest to say.

    Doxology and the Prayer of Peace seem to be quite popular in Dublin anyway, if not Ireland.

    Ironically, you can get good Mass in England these days.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 118 ✭✭ubertrad


    Regular abuses in my parish:

    - Sanitizing Mass texts (usually Gospel and Creed) to attempt to make them 'gender inclusive'.
    - priest giving Holy Communion to Extraordinary Ministers of Holy Communion before he receives
    - priests (and even the bishop last year) sitting back in the sanctuary whilst lay people distribute Holy Communion
    - priests omitting prayers of the Mass e.g. introductory to the Our Father
    - priests ad libbing prayers willy-nilly
    - Replacing the Psalm with a hymn or religious song
    - Tabernacle removed from the reredos and throne for the priest installed in its place, with the tabernacle shifted off to the side, where two beautiful side altars to Our Lady and one to St. Joseph were also ripped out. These were built back in the day using the pennies of the poor people
    - Priest inviting people to recite Doxology
    - altar rails also ripped out with no option to receive kneeling, despite express wishes of Pope Benedict
    - use of altar girls against the express wishes of Pope John Paul II (the permission to use them was granted when the Holy See caved in to the widespread disobedience, just as it did with Communion in the hand)
    - use of non-precious metal containers for Holy Communion
    - Use of extraordinary ministers of holy Communion in un-extraordinary circumstances
    - EMHC approaching the altar before the priest has received holy Communion, causing a distraction during the Our Father
    - No communion plate used, despite Redemptionis Sacramentum calling for it to be used
    - EMHC groping in the tabernacle (priest alone should access tabernacle)
    - priests and EMHC tipping Sacred Hosts into ciborium
    - No Crucifix on centre of altar despite express wishes of Pope Benedict

    These are the everyday abuses and abominations in my parish.


    Wicknight: these matters are important. Catholics regard ritual, obedience, and reverence to God most especially in the Blessed Sacrament in very high regard. Priests who trample on these things are prideful and ignorant.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 797 ✭✭✭Michael G


    Wicknight wrote: »
    I'm not a Catholic (or even a Christian) so apologies if this is a stupid question, but what do Catholics such as yourself consider the issue with this?

    Is the structure and content of the Mass considered important doctrine?
    Not a stupid question at all. Ubertrad has already answered it but perhaps I could add my own comments.

    The Mass, traditionally, has been regarded as the central act of Catholic worship. The heart of the Mass, what used to be called the Canon and is now known as the Eucharistic Prayer, is not a commemoration but literally a re-enactment of the institution of the Eucharist and the Passion, Death and Resurrection of Christ. At the Council of Trent, the Church ratified a liturgy that was precise not only in every word but also in every action of the priest. The Second Vatican Council made some changes in the liturgy which were intended mainly to redress what some saw as an excessive focus on the sacrificial aspect of the Mass at the expense of the "communion" aspect (the people of God sybolically sharing a meal) and the proclamation of Scripture. Those changes were not fundamental. In principle, most traditional Catholics would happily attend the New Mass if it were celebrated in accordance with the instructions of the Second Vatican Council.

    But things were not left at that; something called the "Spirit of Vatican II" took hold that in some ways resembled Trotsky's concept of perpetual revolution (not surprising when you consider that political ideas like that were fashionable at the time of Vatican II and in the years after it). Carried away by the excitement of novelty and innovation, many priests and lay people saw it almost as a duty to keep twiddling and fiddling with the Mass so as to keep it "up to date". Unfortunately, many priests and lay people are aesthetically challenged, and others like power and being the centre of attention. That is why one can never be sure what to expect at the New Mass, except that it will more than likely be uglier, more crass and more spiritually etiolated than it was the previous week.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,731 ✭✭✭alex73


    ubertrad wrote: »
    Regular abuses in my parish:

    - Sanitizing Mass texts (usually Gospel and Creed) to attempt to make them 'gender inclusive'.
    - priest giving Holy Communion to Extraordinary Ministers of Holy Communion before he receives
    - priests (and even the bishop last year) sitting back in the sanctuary whilst lay people distribute Holy Communion
    - priests omitting prayers of the Mass e.g. introductory to the Our Father
    - priests ad libbing prayers willy-nilly
    - Replacing the Psalm with a hymn or religious song
    - Tabernacle removed from the reredos and throne for the priest installed in its place, with the tabernacle shifted off to the side, where two beautiful side altars to Our Lady and one to St. Joseph were also ripped out. These were built back in the day using the pennies of the poor people
    - Priest inviting people to recite Doxology
    - altar rails also ripped out with no option to receive kneeling, despite express wishes of Pope Benedict
    - use of altar girls against the express wishes of Pope John Paul II (the permission to use them was granted when the Holy See caved in to the widespread disobedience, just as it did with Communion in the hand)
    - use of non-precious containers for Holy Communion
    - Use of extraordinary ministers of holy Communion in un-extraordinary circumstances
    - EMHC approaching the altar before the priest has received holy Communion, causing a distraction during the Our Father
    - No communion plate used, despite Redemptionis Sacramentum calling for it to be used
    - EMHC groping in the tabernacle (priest alone should access tabernacle)
    - priests and EMHC tipping Sacred Hosts into ciborium
    - No Crucifix on centre of altar despite express wishes of Pope Benedict

    These are the everyday abuses and abominations in my parish.


    Wicknight: these matters are important. Catholics regard ritual, obedience, and reverence to God most especially in the Blessed Sacrament in very high regard. Priests who trample on these things are prideful and ignorant.


    I have been saying the same things for years. Used to go to mass daily in Rome and priests would follow the Missal (new mass) exactly. Here in Ireland a lot of things seem to be lost. I am glad to see the traditional mass returned.

    I have been to many Orthodox masses (Church not in union with Rome) and they follow the mass to the exact detail. We seem to have lost this reverence.

    Its a pity we did not keep the Latin, I can understand why, not all rites use the language.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 118 ✭✭ubertrad


    alex73 wrote: »
    I have been saying the same things for years. Used to go to mass daily in Rome and priests would follow the Missal (new mass) exactly. Here in Ireland a lot of things seem to be lost. I am glad to see the traditional mass returned.

    I have been to many Orthodox masses (Church not in union with Rome) and they follow the mass to the exact detail. We seem to have lost this reverence.

    Its a pity we did not keep the Latin, I can understand why, not all rites use the language.

    The funny thing is, the bishops and priests seem oblivious to the fact that they are driving people to the EF Latin Mass. I regard myself as a tradionally inclined Catholic, and despite knowing how it came about, I am not totally opposed to the New Mass. As Michael G points out, most traditional Catholics would be happy to attend the OF Mass IF it was offered as Holy Church desires. It's not, and so people like me get p***ed off and are literally driven to the nearest EF Latin Mass simply to escape the crass ugliness that we encounter in the parish. It's a disgrace.

    I was once at the ADORE Eucharistic Youth Congress in Cork, in 2008 I think it was, with Fr Bing. There you had the New Mass, offered in Latin, with chant and ad orientem. It was wonderful. I was nearly sorry I experienced it, because it made the Mass at home even more jarring, knowing how things could and should be, but how they are not. The Mass there was reverent and sacred. the music was heavenly. We received the Eucharist kneeling, on the tongue. I can't experience any of these things at home.

    To be honest, I think my nearest EF Latin Mass is no solution either. The priest rattles through the Latin at an alarming rate, and I find it all quite irreverent, so the EF Latin Mass can be offered in an irreverent way too.

    The solution is holy priests who desire to give to God the worship that is His due and in turn lead to the sanctification of the people. Is this too much to ask?

    How do we get this message to the priests? Are they listening? Are they interested?

    This is important - our salvation is at stake. If we have shabby worship, we have shabby, lukewarm Catholics who are not brought to the wonder and awe and love of God and a repentance from sin and an embracing of the new life. This is what is at stake.

    The solution, I think, is a widespread availability of the EF Mass, and let people vote with their feet. One prelate in Rome is reputed to have said that in 20 years, the New Mass will not exist. I don't know about that, but I think the EF Mass will grow in prevalence as the trendy priests die off and their followers lose interest.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,122 ✭✭✭✭Jimmy Bottlehead


    What had essentially happened is that the fear the church used to use to control people has vanished, and in it's place is the mass marketing of the ceremony to make it more alluring to Joe and Joesephine Public.

    I don't see what's so surprising? The RCC need numbers to influence, not die-hards who argue over whether to kneel or stand, or whether girls can be altar-servers. Numbers matter, faith doesn't in the realm of power and influence.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 118 ✭✭ubertrad


    What had essentially happened is that the fear the church used to use to control people has vanished, and in it's place is the mass marketing of the ceremony to make it more alluring to Joe and Joesephine Public.

    I don't see what's so surprising? The RCC need numbers to influence, not die-hards who argue over whether to kneel or stand, or whether girls can be altar-servers. Numbers matter, faith doesn't in the realm of power and influence.

    That's it. I guess they just have trouble letting go of their business interests. But if you have a full Church of people who neither believe nor live the Gospel of Jesus Christ, what have you got? It would be one thing if the full Church were subject to beautiful Catholic worship and sound preaching, but they're not getting that. They are getting wishy-washy nothingness. I am scathing here, but I do recognise there are of course exceptions in Ireland, and even in the most liberal parishes, there are a few faithful souls who suffer in silence, whilst the others are also denied what is their baptismal right: an authentic experience of Catholic worship and teaching.

    Pope Benedict is so much on the mark. I've recently read his Light of the World and now Jesus of Nazareth. People think he is out of touch, but there is nobody more on the ball than him as far as I can see.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,122 ✭✭✭✭Jimmy Bottlehead


    ubertrad wrote: »
    That's it. I guess they just have trouble letting go of their business interests. But if you have a full Church of people who neither believe nor live the Gospel of Jesus Christ, what have you got? It would be one thing if the full Church were subject to beautiful Catholic worship and sound preaching, but they're not getting that. they are getting wishy-washy nothingness. I am scathing here, but I do recognise there are of course exceptions in Ireland, and even in the most liberal parishes, there are a few faithful souls who suffer in silence, whilst the others are also denied what is their baptismal right: an authentic experience of Catholic worship and teaching.

    Pope Benedict is so much on the mark. I've recently read his Light of the World and now Jesus of Nazareth. People think he is out of touch, but there is nobody more on the ball than him as far as I can see.

    I should point out that along with being absolutely correct, I'm also absolutely atheist, and delighted to see the RCC failing.

    However, what annoy me most are the majority of Irish catholics who proclaim themselves catholics, view those without faith as oddballs, and yet follow their 'faith' in nothing but word. The people who have never read a bible, the people who go to mass every sunday to hear the gossip after, the people who use contraception, have extra-marital sex, curse, and so forth.
    I can at least respect the intentions of a theist who tries to educate themselves in their faith, even if I haven't respect for that faith. I have no respect at all for those wishy-washy ala carte catholics which make up a large proportion of the Irish catholic base.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 118 ✭✭ubertrad


    However, what annoy me most are the majority of Irish catholics who proclaim themselves catholics, view those without faith as oddballs, and yet follow their 'faith' in nothing but word. The people who have never read a bible, the people who go to mass every sunday to hear the gossip after, the people who use contraception, have extra-marital sex, curse, and so forth.
    I can at least respect the intentions of a theist who tries to educate themselves in their faith, even if I haven't respect for that faith. I have no respect at all for those wishy-washy ala carte catholics which make up a large proportion of the Irish catholic base.
    That makes two of us, Jimmy Bottlehead. It appears that God would agree with us both:
    "I know your works; I know that you are neither cold nor hot. I wish you were either cold or hot.

    So, because you are lukewarm, neither hot nor cold, I will spit you out of my mouth.

    For you say, 'I am rich and affluent and have no need of anything,' and yet do not realize that you are wretched, pitiable, poor, blind, and naked.

    I advise you to buy from me gold refined by fire so that you may be rich, and white garments to put on so that your shameful nakedness may not be exposed, and buy ointment to smear on your eyes so that you may see.''

    - Revelation, Chapter 3:15-18


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,927 ✭✭✭georgieporgy


    Introibo ad altare Dei

    Ad Deum qui laetificat juventutum meum

    did I get it right? I'm going purely on memory there guys so I hope the spelling is ok. I have happy memories of being an altar boy in the 50s but am sorry to say I remember the occasional irreverant Mass said then too.

    I'm not trying to interrupt the general flow of the thread but I do think younger catholics often get carried away with the good old days. Let me state clearly I am dead against all the abuses and novelties described in earlier posts but at the same time think there's nothing like a good old Novus Ordo. JP 2, Benedict 16, Mother Teresa, and many others of great stature were happy with it. Vatican2 (the real one) gave it to us for good reason. Done right it's great.
    I think the new revisions to the English translation will sort out the local abuses here ,may well take 10 years or so, but cheer up, old heretics eventually die off.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 118 ✭✭ubertrad


    Introibo ad altare Dei

    Ad Deum qui laetificat juventutum meum

    did I get it right? I'm going purely on memory there guys so I hope the spelling is ok. I have happy memories of being an altar boy in the 50s but am sorry to say I remember the occasional irreverant Mass said then too.

    I'm not trying to interrupt the general flow of the thread but I do think younger catholics often get carried away with the good old days. Let me state clearly I am dead against all the abuses and novelties described in earlier posts but at the same time think there's nothing like a good old Novus Ordo. JP 2, Benedict 16, Mother Teresa, and many others of great stature were happy with it. Vatican2 (the real one) gave it to us for good reason. Done right it's great.
    I think the new revisions to the English translation will sort out the local abuses here ,may well take 10 years or so, but cheer up, old heretics eventually die off.

    Cardinal Ratzinger on the New Mass:
    What happened after the Council was totally different: in the place of liturgy as the fruit of development came fabricated liturgy.

    We left the living process of growth and development to enter the realm of fabrication. There was no longer a desire to continue developing and maturing, as the centuries passed and so this was replaced - as if it were a technical production - with a construction, a banal on-the-spot product.


    The New Mass is valid, that is true, but is the New Mass what the Fathers of the Second Vatican Council had in mind? I don't think so.

    Some young traddies do seem enamoured with 'the good old days' and blind to failings and problems. I am not one of them. Yes, the Latin Mass was subject to irreverence (not on the same level as the New Mass though), and of course we had the rotten filth under the surface, and a lot of, imho, hypocrisy. So I don't yearn for the good old glory days of 'Irish Catholicism'. What I yearn for is an authentic implementation of Vatican II and a reform of the liturgy according to the true intentions of the Council Fathers.

    I think the New Translation will make some of the current abuses appear even more ridiculous and jarring and thus they just might be corrected.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 797 ✭✭✭Michael G


    ubertrad wrote: »
    I think the New Translation will make some of the current abuses appear even more ridiculous and jarring and thus they just might be corrected.
    It would be wonderful if that happened. However I think most priests will ignore it and our mostly useless bishops will not even try to enforce it.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 118 ✭✭ubertrad


    Michael G wrote: »
    It would be wonderful if that happened. However I think most priests will ignore it and our mostly useless bishops will not even try to enforce it.

    Do you think so?

    My strategy is this: I will monitor the introduction of the New Mass locally with my shiny new missal.

    I hope and pray that our local priests will comply. I don't want to involve Rome but I will if it is pushed.

    In the end, we may have to shake the dust from our feet and take our families and our money to orthodox parishes.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,087 ✭✭✭Festus


    ubertrad wrote: »
    Do you think so?

    My strategy is this: I will monitor the introduction of the New Mass locally with my shiny new missal.

    I hope and pray that our local priests will comply. I don't want to involve Rome but I will if it is pushed.

    In the end, we may have to shake the dust from our feet and take our families and our money to orthodox parishes.


    Here's a mad idea.

    Why not get some coloured paper roughly the same colour as a 5, 10 or 20 yoyo note.

    Cut it in to pieces roughly the same size as the aforementioned.

    Write your demands on the note e.g. This could have been a fiver (tenner, score, whatever) but until you start using the New Translation, stop the congregation from saying the prayers reserved for the priest and take the extraordinary Eucharistic ministers off the altar ....( add whatever you want)... you are not getting another penny from this household.

    fold it up so it looks like a note and drop it in the collection plate.

    encourage like minded parisioners to do the same.

    What'dya think to that?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 118 ✭✭ubertrad


    Festus wrote: »
    Here's a mad idea.

    Why not get some coloured paper roughly the same colour as a 5, 10 or 20 yoyo note.

    Cut it in to pieces roughly the same size as the aforementioned.

    Write your demands on the note e.g. This could have been a fiver (tenner, score, whatever) but until you start using the New Translation, stop the congregation from saying the prayers reserved for the priest and take the extraordinary Eucharistic ministers off the altar ....( add whatever you want)... you are not getting another penny from this household.

    fold it up so it looks like a note and drop it in the collection plate.

    encourage like minded parisioners to do the same.

    What'dya think to that?

    I read the same sort of advice elsewhere:

    You may have to travel quite a distance on Sundays to find a conservative Mass, but you may not have the time for extensive travel on weekdays. If you ever have to go to a liberal parish, then, instead of putting money into the collection, leave a note that says, more or less, “I attend Mass here daily, but I will not support this parish financially as long as you continue to [use altar girls; use glass vessels at the altar; use extraordinary ministers in un-extraordinary circumstances; alter the liturgical texts; fail to genuflect before the Blessed Sacrament; make the homily into joking entertainment; etc.].” This isn’t being judgmental, it’s a matter of giving a legitimate warning, and at least you won’t go home fuming in anger trying to fight the devil. Then give your monetary support to a parish, monastery, or seminary that supports holy priests. [Source]

    I think it is good advice and I plan on following it.

    In my parish, there are three priests. One of them makes an effort to stick to the books, but the other two are freelancers. I'm biting my lip now, but when the new translation comes, I'm not gonna take any nonsense. It's just not right.

    At the minute, I don't support my own parish financially; instead, I give money to Aid to the Church in Need. I am also considering giving money to one of the traditional orders, such as the ICKSP. Rather than support the status quo, we need to support the agents of holiness and restoration. Those who reside in Limerick are particularly blessed with the presence of the ICKSP.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 118 ✭✭ubertrad


    I'm reading a fantastic book, The Old Mass and the New: Explaining the Moto Proprio Summorum Pontificum of Pope Benedict XVI

    It is the book I've been looking for - a book that lays out the reasons why we need a liturgical reform but in a nice way so you can give this book to your parish priest. I plan to buy 3 copies once I decide when to present them, in consultation with a good priest I know.

    You can get a good preview of the book by following the link above.

    The book makes the excellent point that priests who abuse the Mass are perhaps unwittingly driving the faithful away to the Traditional Latin Mass because they the priests won't say Mass according to the books and the authentic spirit of the liturgy. I know that is how it is for me.

    aillet_oldmassandnew_lg.jpg


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